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After my first game yesterday after quite a while I'm still mulling about how to improve my odds. While I did some HUGE (and I mean gamebreaking idiotic) strategical mistakes, I had the good fortune of my opponent doing the same
Just from this I'd think I'd fare better the next time, but still...

A quick rundown of our lists:
2 Termie Squads (1 with Banner of Fort, 1 AssCan, 1 CML)
Knights in a Crusader (MM) with Tech(PFG), joined by Belial
Mortis Rifledread
Predator Annihilator
1 Tac in a Razorback (Melta&Combimelta)
1 Tac with PC
1 Tac with LC

VS

Lucius
Demon Prince (winged, PA)
Barebones CSM Squad
Defiler TLLC
Noise Marines with 2 Blastmasters in a Rhino
3 Chaos Spawns
3 Obliterators/Mutilators
Some cultists
Helldrake

The problem I face is that I cannot stop him from tearing my backline a new superflous new hole while simultaneously suffering losses on the far end.
The Demon Prince, Helldrake, Obliterators and Mutilators and Chaos Spawns either run straight towards the backward objectives held by my pred, dread and tacs. The Prince and the Helldrake are too tough with my limited AA to shoot down reliably while the obliterators pop the pred from behind with Multimeltas. The Mutilators do the rest. The Chaos Spawns are part of the problem since I have to shoot those tough buggers down before they do reach my backline, which is terrible, considering the points these things cost.
On the far end, I face the problem of salvo 4 noise marines and the Defiler eating through my termies.

Now in terms of list building I know I should shuffle some stuff around.
Switching the Razorback to a Rhino/Droppod would save me points and more reliably pop the Defiler (which is what they are there for).
Alternatively I could field a Vindicator to advance with the LR and, partially, the Pred to provide more dangerous targets than the Termies.
Dropping the Dread is a possibility, but that would make me sadfaced :(

Tactics-wise, I think I'm trying to do too much with holding the backline AND the offensive, which stretches me out too thin and plays into the hands of the superior mobility of the enemy. More "in your face" than "no, don't get those objectives!".
I can't shoot or catch most of his cheap melee units, so I should force him to come to me (and maybe add a small bike squad for objective grabbing?)

I think part of your problem lies with target priority.

I see you have a lot of armor yet you say you have to get the spawn down before they reach you. Why would that be? They really suck at bringing down vehicles. Athough I like spawn and use them myself, they are far from unkillable because they don't have an armor save.

Your real focus should be on the obliterators and the Heldrake (when no better target is in sight).

Mutilaters should be no problem because Terminators can chop them up easily with a powerfist (if only they had an invul save).

Well the problem is that I run the tacs solely to cover backfield objectives. The spawns have a tendency to run towards those, tear up the tacs sitting there, bind something in CC (like the Mortis Dread) and score objectives. Which is bad
The termies usually aren't nearby to protect them... which is why the Mutilators give them trouble too, together with the DP.

The oblits deep-strike and yes, if there is something left, they are my prime targets.

And as I learned, 2 TLACs aren't by far enough to kill a heldrake in less than 5 turns.

Guess my best bet is to drop all 3+ and the dread and go full face and abandon my backline. Which is instaloose in Maelstrom missions. Gah.

I'm surprised that the terminators have trouble. The noise marines have an awful lot of AP3 weaponry, which should be bouncing off tactical dreadnought plate with ease.

I'd consider swapping out a tactical squad for a second dreadnought - I don't think the spawn can hurt it, and with power fist it'll kill them with a single hit each. Position it in front of your lines and it'll be very difficult for him to attack your back line without it intercepting them.

That frees up the marines and mortis to do what they should be doing; putting fire into the mutilators and obliterators (and the prince, when he slows down to charge).

The big issue is the helldrake - as you say, you'll struggle to hurt it. Does it carry a baleflamer? If so, that's a seriously lethal threat to your tactical squads. The Hades Autocannon is a threat to your tanks, but not too much of one (it'll wreck dreadnought and razorbacks, though).

Might I suggest a bunker with an AA mount? There's a risk that the obliterators will multimelta it, but even then, it's cheaper and harder to kill than the predator, and if they don't kill that they get three armour ignoring, instant death lascannons in the face, so you still win on the deal.

an awful lot of AP3 with Salvo 3 is still about 20 shots hitting the termies. With another 5 shots from blastmasters thats 10+ wounds... bad rolls and half your termies are gone :/
The bigger problem is the Defiler standing behind them. Yet another template on DSing termies is bad in itself, but several DCCW's is bad too. I had that thing whipe a entire squad in a single round of combat.

I've actually considered adding in a 2nd dread - another mortis pattern, but with TLLC. Helps against all those threats, including the helldrake and demon prince, which, of course, has a baleflamer. Also, until the drakes and DSing elites come in, it can help destroy the defiler that gives the termies trouble in the assault. If I can wreck this thing, my termies most likely will have a field day with pretty much everything. Would still have to weaken the spawns a bit (which are nurgly), but maybe the Knights should take a detour and grill some spawns on the way in.
MAybe I also should use the Knights with their 3++ to smash the Defiler's face and use Belial to DS with a squad.

So, in a nutshell, I'd now run:

1 Termie Command Squad (1 with Banner of Fort, CML)
1 Termie Squad (AssCan)
Knights in a Crusader(MM) with Tech(PFG) and Belial
Mortis Rifledread
Mortis Lascannondread
Predator Annihilator
2 Tacs with LC

Vindicators will probably help here!

I have one sitting around that I plan to use until I can get the Dread assembled and painted (the autocannon for the Dread took about 1 month to arrive...).
IDing the Demon Prince would be spectacular, but the Spawns run Nurgle and are T6 if I remember right so are impossible to ID.
The beauty is that I force him to decide between multiple rather threatening units on approach (Vindicator, LR (possibly a redeemer to go flat-out) with Knights inside) all the while being shelled from the backline with 7 Lascannons and 2 Autocannons while having 2 Squads of Termies in his deployment zone to deal with.

Oh... And with the PFG being RAW as it is now, that is quite an amoured column approaching... *cackle*

What marks are the oblits, mutilators, spawn running? What powers does he roll for the DP does it have mastery levels?

His spawn have no tank. Since he is not running a biker lord and not using Crimson Slaughter they wont have forewarning to protect them.

Are you deep striking the terminators outside of the knights? If so I would stick Belial with them to stick the landing and hose something down. The LRC should be almost immune to his shooting as it has a 4++ and AV14 and he has very little str9 shooting. Go second and counter deepstrike his oblits with terminators.

Oh get some rhinos for the tac squads or drop pods even. Drop the mortis and then save the other pods with the tac squads for later on in the game to grab objs. Honestly your terminators should be getting the objectives in his half. Better yet move the LRC to a dedicated transport for your terminator squad so it is obj secured as well. I think your list is fine with just a few more tweaks.

Remember the bale flamer is not 360 degress any longer. If you go second you can drop pod the mortis dread the terminators/knights and not have to worry about get tabled turn one.

If the mutliators have MoN they are annoying with 2+/5++. Do you have storm shields in there anywhere?

First, dont DS near his defiler, even if it is AP3; unless you are reasonably sure you can kill it that turn.

dont DS within LOS of his Nosemarines, as again, AP3 and 5, it's a lot of Dakka.

Mutilators are a joke, if they DS just run away from them with the weak stuff or charge with the tough stuff. Anything you have that mutilators can take, is baledrake food. Everything else should wipe them.

NightWrench wrote:What marks are the oblits, mutilators, spawn running? What powers does he roll for the DP does it have mastery levels?

His spawn have no tank. Since he is not running a biker lord and not using Crimson Slaughter they wont have forewarning to protect them.

Are you deep striking the terminators outside of the knights? If so I would stick Belial with them to stick the landing and hose something down. The LRC should be almost immune to his shooting as it has a 4++ and AV14 and he has very little str9 shooting. Go second and counter deepstrike his oblits with terminators.

Oh get some rhinos for the tac squads or drop pods even. Drop the mortis and then save the other pods with the tac squads for later on in the game to grab objs. Honestly your terminators should be getting the objectives in his half. Better yet move the LRC to a dedicated transport for your terminator squad so it is obj secured as well. I think your list is fine with just a few more tweaks.

Remember the bale flamer is not 360 degress any longer. If you go second you can drop pod the mortis dread the terminators/knights and not have to worry about get tabled turn one.

If the mutliators have MoN they are annoying with 2+/5++. Do you have storm shields in there anywhere?

Good question,... It's either Slaneesh or Nurgle., I'd think the latter.
He had only 1 Mastery Level on the table which had to be the DP. He rolled on the Powers of Nurgle and used some power with a rnd effect.
The spawns don't need a tank. Their entire strategy is to soak wounds... And he uses this to his advantage as described. I have to smack em or I loose my (at that time a little more power armoured) backfield. They didn't die slow, but it was some shooting that was not directed at, at least in the long term, more threatening targets.
Uhm... DSing outside the knights? Pardon? ^^
Counterdsing the oblits is a good idea. Only works if he rolls his reserve for them, though. If they come in turn 3...
The LR proved to be a really tough mofo for him to take down. He infliced a total of 2 hullpoints which were promptly repaired by the Techmarine
That's why I consider using a Redeemer, those few bolters don't make much of a difference and it's unlikely it will be shot down before it can bring its cannons to good use. Toasting the Noise Marines will be so satisfying

Getting DTs for the tacs sounds good in theory... But I just cannot free the points :/ Would be awesome in Maelstrom missions, but Termies are so prohibitively expensive...
Switching the Transport over to termies... Wait. I could buy it for the termies, keep those in reserve for DSing. The Knights could simply embark in the LR in the first turn and go 12 with Cruising Speed?
Yep, Storm Shields are in there, although not many. Besides the Knights, every Termie Squad runs with a CF and a TH/SS.

Exergy wrote:First, dont DS near his defiler, even if it is AP3; unless you are reasonably sure you can kill it that turn.

dont DS within LOS of his Nosemarines, as again, AP3 and 5, it's a lot of Dakka.

Mutilators are a joke, if they DS just run away from them with the weak stuff or charge with the tough stuff. Anything you have that mutilators can take, is baledrake food. Everything else should wipe them.

The Defiler is AP2 with its DCCW. The Battle Cannon doesn't scare me, its the assault of that thing that does I need either to shoot it down with the Lascannons or assault it with the Knights. Everything else is toast.
Running away... Duh. Sometimes it's that simple.. All I need to do is sit 12" from him in Rapid Fire Range and point the Lascannon at him if he decides to turtle an objective.

3 land raider crusader with standard of devastation = 5hit ton of dakka at anything. Load them up with your tac marines for even more dakka. Outfit your termi with th/ss and kill the defilers, mutilators and oblits.

Biggest flaw in the competitiveness of your list is Terminators. They just aren´t a competitive unit. I would only use a maximum of 1 unit with Belial for the alphastrike potential.

Don´t remove the Mortis atleast, it´s one of the better units out there. Adding a vindicator is probably a good call; it´s a cheap firemagnet.

Filch wrote:3 land raider crusader with standard of devastation = 5hit ton of dakka at anything. Load them up with your tac marines for even more dakka. Outfit your termi with th/ss and kill the defilers, mutilators and oblits.

Yeah, that is an entirely different list though

RunicFIN wrote:Biggest flaw in the competitiveness of your list is Terminators. They just aren´t a competitive unit. I would only use a maximum of 1 unit with Belial for the alphastrike potential.

Don´t remove the Mortis atleast, it´s one of the better units out there. Adding a vindicator is probably a good call; it´s a cheap firemagnet.

I know, but the same can be said about CSM in general. His list is bad, my list is bad, so it evens out. For other guys I intend to bring the RW List I'm in the starting tracks of building which will be way more competive. We will see what the small changes to the list will bring (and I guess a Redeemer with that loadout is one helluva scary thing since it ignores basically any saves from anything except the mutilators and obliterators and is nearly impossible to destroy).

 Thairne wrote:

Exergy wrote:First, dont DS near his defiler, even if it is AP3; unless you are reasonably sure you can kill it that turn.

dont DS within LOS of his Nosemarines, as again, AP3 and 5, it's a lot of Dakka.

Mutilators are a joke, if they DS just run away from them with the weak stuff or charge with the tough stuff. Anything you have that mutilators can take, is baledrake food. Everything else should wipe them.

The Defiler is AP2 with its DCCW. The Battle Cannon doesn't scare me, its the assault of that thing that does I need either to shoot it down with the Lascannons or assault it with the Knights. Everything else is toast.
Running away... Duh. Sometimes it's that simple.. All I need to do is sit 12" from him in Rapid Fire Range and point the Lascannon at him if he decides to turtle an objective.

All walkers are AP2 with DCCW. The defiler is ~200 points though and is still AV12 with a 5++. Yes it will kill some things in close combat, but much less if you have any Storm Shields. It in return will die to a few powerfists or thunderhammers. Regular terminators should be able to handle it without too much trouble. If you have any greenwing near it, you can take off some hull points with krak grenades before it can strike as it is only init 3 I believe.

As for mutilators, what is he doing. DSing 3 of them into your backfield allong with the obliterators? That sounds like 400 points coming down in your backfield possibly not together or scattering. Of course it is going to be tough to take out, but again if you have only have one of your Tactical squads in the backfield and a group of mutilators drops down near them you have a couple options.
1. Shoot and try to wipe them with this turn of shooting+ overwatch+combat before their lightning claws shred you. Remember if you are in cover you will strike first. I might try this with the squad with the plasma cannon, but otherwise not a great option.
2. Run away, kite them with bolters until last turn, when you charge the objective they are on and hope you killed enough of them to survive with your objective secured you will get the objective.
3. Run away and eventually try to bring something into the backfield to chase them off or kill them.

With the drake running around and you not having a way to kill it, you shouldnt expect your tactical squads to survive the game sitting around holding objectives anyway, so stay moving, stay spread out, and take pot shots with bolters and hope you can knock off a few of these 70 point models with 2+ saves.

 Thairne wrote:

NightWrench wrote:What marks are the oblits, mutilators, spawn running? What powers does he roll for the DP does it have mastery levels?

His spawn have no tank. Since he is not running a biker lord and not using Crimson Slaughter they wont have forewarning to protect them.

Are you deep striking the terminators outside of the knights? If so I would stick Belial with them to stick the landing and hose something down. The LRC should be almost immune to his shooting as it has a 4++ and AV14 and he has very little str9 shooting. Go second and counter deepstrike his oblits with terminators.

Oh get some rhinos for the tac squads or drop pods even. Drop the mortis and then save the other pods with the tac squads for later on in the game to grab objs. Honestly your terminators should be getting the objectives in his half. Better yet move the LRC to a dedicated transport for your terminator squad so it is obj secured as well. I think your list is fine with just a few more tweaks.

Remember the bale flamer is not 360 degress any longer. If you go second you can drop pod the mortis dread the terminators/knights and not have to worry about get tabled turn one.

If the mutliators have MoN they are annoying with 2+/5++. Do you have storm shields in there anywhere?

Good question,... It's either Slaneesh or Nurgle., I'd think the latter.
He had only 1 Mastery Level on the table which had to be the DP. He rolled on the Powers of Nurgle and used some power with a rnd effect.
The spawns don't need a tank. Their entire strategy is to soak wounds... And he uses this to his advantage as described. I have to smack em or I loose my (at that time a little more power armoured) backfield. They didn't die slow, but it was some shooting that was not directed at, at least in the long term, more threatening targets.
Uhm... DSing outside the knights? Pardon? ^^
Counterdsing the oblits is a good idea. Only works if he rolls his reserve for them, though. If they come in turn 3...
The LR proved to be a really tough mofo for him to take down. He infliced a total of 2 hullpoints which were promptly repaired by the Techmarine
That's why I consider using a Redeemer, those few bolters don't make much of a difference and it's unlikely it will be shot down before it can bring its cannons to good use. Toasting the Noise Marines will be so satisfying

Getting DTs for the tacs sounds good in theory... But I just cannot free the points :/ Would be awesome in Maelstrom missions, but Termies are so prohibitively expensive...
Switching the Transport over to termies... Wait. I could buy it for the termies, keep those in reserve for DSing. The Knights could simply embark in the LR in the first turn and go 12 with Cruising Speed?
Yep, Storm Shields are in there, although not many. Besides the Knights, every Termie Squad runs with a CF and a TH/SS.

Exergy wrote:First, dont DS near his defiler, even if it is AP3; unless you are reasonably sure you can kill it that turn.

dont DS within LOS of his Nosemarines, as again, AP3 and 5, it's a lot of Dakka.

Mutilators are a joke, if they DS just run away from them with the weak stuff or charge with the tough stuff. Anything you have that mutilators can take, is baledrake food. Everything else should wipe them.

The Defiler is AP2 with its DCCW. The Battle Cannon doesn't scare me, its the assault of that thing that does I need either to shoot it down with the Lascannons or assault it with the Knights. Everything else is toast.
Running away... Duh. Sometimes it's that simple.. All I need to do is sit 12" from him in Rapid Fire Range and point the Lascannon at him if he decides to turtle an objective.

The ability to use another squad dedicated transport is sometimes overlooked. The crusader as OBJS is a huge pain in the but. My friend plays a semi competitive/fluff list and his land raider is a real pain at low point games. Yes it eats up a ton of points but until you get into 1/2 melta range it has a tendency to not go away.

If your friends wants to be more competitive I love the mutilators converted to oblits. Dark Angels are really tough to play right now without using shield spam and taking extra tech marines to get those shields for your vulnerable scoring units. Actually a techmarine with a power field would help protect a tac squad or two from the drake.

 RunicFIN wrote:
Biggest flaw in the competitiveness of your list is Terminators. They just aren´t a competitive unit. I would only use a maximum of 1 unit with Belial for the alphastrike potential.

Don´t remove the Mortis atleast, it´s one of the better units out there. Adding a vindicator is probably a good call; it´s a cheap firemagnet.

If it's worth taking, it's worth taking twice.

I myself would drop the Pred and have two Vindicators. One will get up the field and run a train on his back line.

Hm.
So I seem to have 2 options currently.
The "defend the backfield" or the "abandon the backfield".

I could just "abandon" the backfield. drop the tacticals to a bare minimum (save the lascannons, since they can do some good like instagibbing oblits/mutilators or cause trouble for the DP) , the Mortis Dread and the Pred
and go with 2 Vindicators that drive along the (now planned as) Redeemer which gives them a 4++. Should pretty easily overpower anything he has. And maybe pop some stuff thats on the way backwards.

Or I could reinforce the backfield by taking another Mortis Dread with Lascannons and keep the Predator.
Still a useful offence with 2 TLAC, 4 LC, 3 TLLC in the backfield to shoot down approaching units.

I kinda like both approaches.. Vindicators are kinky and the mixed approach of the defensive option is also appealing
I'll play around with the list a bit and see what I like best. But for now, today's game will be run with a vindicator.


Core:
Belial
DWCS (CML, Banner)
Termie Squad (AssCan)
Knights in a Redeemer(MM) with Tech(PFG)
1 Tac with LC

plus offensive:
2 Vindicators (Siege Shield, Storm Bolter)
1 Tac with LC
Termie Squad (AssCan)

plus defensive:
1 Mortis Dread TLAC
1 Mortis Dread TLLC
Pred with LC

I would not save the lascannons. Multilators/obliterators usually have MoN which means they dont suffer ID from Las. With the 5++ it makes it a less ideal weapon that you cannot fire on the move. A plasma gun costs less and does more against them(or DPs). They can be used against a defiler, but melta is much better against Daemon engines as you can ensure a pen and actually blow it up, keeping it from IWNDing all game.

Otherwise looks good

I myself would drop the Pred and have two Vindicators. One will get up the field and run a train on his back line.

I would respectfully dissagree with adding two Vindicators. I mean yeah, one Vindicator is, almost without exception useless so you should take at least two if you're going to take any, but I think it's a bad idea in this case. The OP is facing multiple deep-striking Oblits. It will be way too easy for them to crack off shots at the rear armor and pop them before they are able to do anything. If you want to then argue that "Hey, at least then the Oblits aren't shooting at anything else", I would say that two Vindis are too costly to use as bullet magnates.


OP:

I think you'd be better off with additional Mortis Dreads or possibly even a second Predator. Since range isn't as much of an issue with the Predators as it is with the Vindicators, you can reliably count on at least one of them to do some damage before getting popped. The idea of setting up a defensive bunker is a good one though. You might explore that a little.

Quick update:
Coming back from the game for today. I soundly won by not being a complete slow
Not by superior list building in any means, but I did make some better decisions this time and it paid off.
He modified his list slightly, as did I.
The Vindicator did underperform, but that's partially due to me playing incorrectly. Pred got, as you predicted, popped by Obliterators.
The Demon Prince got shot down and killed in Overwatch, the Defiler got immobilised by the Predator. The Chaos Spawn went for the Dreadnought (heh) and my DK Knights with Belial popped Lucius and his Squad of Chosen after enduring an entire round of fire with zero losses.
The Helldrake did actually have a Hades, but didn't score any kills.
The newly appearing hellbrute got 7 hits in its back armor from deep striking termies.
All in all, it was a pretty massacry win

I will consider the plasma guns instead of the LC's. I currently like the defensive bunker setup more tho, where Plasma Guns would really help out more, since already enough LC's are available with that approach. Plus it's easier to

He used a defiler? Lolz!

Well yeah, he's about as new to this as am I, but did dig into it deeper for a good year. Chalk it up to beginner mistakes

TLDR: Stop running Dark Angels if you care about winning. My only advice to Dark Angels players since I am one.

Or use some of the better Forgeworld Models

1) Ravenwing kicks total ass so I have no idea what you are talking about.

2) yeah forgeworld. Their mortis patterns get skyfire and interceptor when they stand still. My opponent let me use one and it knocked 2, wounds off and its baleflamer making it a headless turkey.


also DAs have a hard on for plasma. Some ravenwing knights are fast and excellent at taking out terminators Marines and whatever.