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First off, I'm not planning on selling off or anything. I love the DE models and I'm a hobbiest first, I'm just trying to figure out how to run DE with the new codex being out, mainly due to my usual HQs and troops being changed so much. So I'm not quite sure where to go from here. (FYI, I'm old school, I don't really use allies, especially with xenos)

To outline how I've been playing for the past while.
HQ: usually used The Baron, The Lady, and sometimes the Duke. Occasionally a Haemy thrown in.
The Baron always was with Hellions as he was really the only way to make Hellions usable. Don't even own a beast pack, never liked them. Now with the Baron gone I'm not sure if Hellions are going to be survivable enough, even with the point drop.
The Lady was always a fun one for me, never a fantastic choice but I liked her. The Duke was a good one too to enhance my arena troops and buff some kabalites.
Not sure what I want to do with my HQs now. I was never a huge fan of the Coven side of the 'dex but that really just leaves me with generics and Lilith.

Troops: My lists were generally wych heavy. 3-4 MSU Wych venom units with Haywires. I would also run a large unit of Bloodbrides with Malys, or a Raider Kabalite squad if I took Duke. The Hellions would also cover some troop requirements too. Wyches really seem to have lost a lot of their usefulness with Haywires gone now, so I'm not really sure what to do with them now.

Rest of the units: not really affected too much. I took a lot of Reavers, losing bladevaneing will change how I use them but their cheapness makes up for it, so thats just a tactical change. Hellions, technically the unit itself got better due to cost decreases, but now have a grenade problem, coupled with the loss of the Baron. Scourges were a unit that would only occasionally show up on the tabletop, but that will will be changing. I'm am glad that such an awesome looking unit gained some strength. Coven units, I really only ever took a single unit of Grots, likely won't change there. Ravagers are there too of course.

So how should I switch up my lists to be able to compete a little? I don't need to win tournies or anything close to that, but I don't want to get steamrolled either. I'm kinda leaning toward just going unbound, or at least just using the Real Space Raiders so I can load up on Fast Attack and go minimum troops.
Thoughts?

From the looks of it....

Put the wyches, ravagers and hellions up on a shelf for 9th edition.


The new bread and butter is all in the FA section. Scourges, Beastpacks, Reavers, Razorwings. Fast and hitty.

For troops, you are limited to warriors in a venom or warriors in a raider with splinter racks. Much less survivable now, without flicker-fields and night sheilds being so expensive. Might be best to stick with cheap venoms.

HQs seems to be a nasty tax around just to annoy you.

HS should also probably be ignored. To expensive for what you get.

Elites...grots are ok. Trueborn are also ok, but scourges/ allied firedragons are better.

Just looks depressing for the Dark Eldar it seems, or am I just disappointed?

 Senstara Nightwhisper wrote:
Just looks depressing for the Dark Eldar it seems, or am I just disappointed?

It is very depressing, there was much moaning and sadness to be had. A lot of units people use to like are gone, or unplayable. I am trying to get past that. There are some things that have gotten better. I am trying to stick with that.

Ravagers are still your best HS choice. More expensive, but they changed little other than losing a 5++.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Ravagers are still your best HS choice. More expensive, but they changed little other than losing a 5++.

they can only move 6" and shoot their weapons, cost 20 points more, and no longer have access to a 5++ or -6" shield

but they can deep strike now



I think that is enough to just bypass the HS section all together.
4 scourges with haywire, cost less, have 4 shots instead of 3, glance on 2+ rather than 4+. And they can move 12 and fire everything

they are also arguably more durable. AV11 vs 5 T3 wounds with 4+/6++ and then FNP

I also have a huge DE army. my ravagers will never again see the table until rules change.

Im totally ok with that. im SO tired of running 9 venoms and 3 ravagers. it was so effective, I love vehicle lists but i always wanted cooler units to work. i wish Hellions werent meh. I do love wyches, but there are so many cool things in the new book

raoiley wrote:
I do love wyches, but there are so many cool things in the new book

What sort of things are you planning on running?

Mandrakes for dayz

 Creeping Dementia wrote:

HQ: usually used The Baron, The Lady, and sometimes the Duke. Occasionally a Haemy thrown in.
Now with the Baron gone I'm not sure if Hellions are going to be survivable enough, even with the point drop.
Not sure what I want to do with my HQs now.

Troops: My lists were generally wych heavy. 3-4 MSU Wych venom units with Haywires. I would also run a large unit of Bloodbrides with Malys, or a Raider Kabalite squad if I took Duke. The Hellions would also cover some troop requirements too.

Rest of the units: not really affected too much.

So how should I switch up my lists to be able to compete a little?
.
Thoughts?

Well the Dark Eldar are really all about the power of speed. Wyches can now be on a door step turn one absolutely guaranteed. So Raiders full of them instead of Venoms would make sense, using the Aethersile. Just gun the engines and plop 60 Wyches in front of enemy troopss. Start popping cans with the Ravagers and Scourges. Force the enemy to decide if they like killing anti-tank or anti-personell more but they cant have it all.

I think that your list will just HAVE more wyches per squad and will have to rely on, as you said, Generics to beef them up. But the dont all need beefing, just mainly the ones attacking the really hard targets, but your Grotesques are kinds there for that purpose.

Disallowing the enemy to move for two rounds is actually not that small a thing and the Wyches will be able to pin theenemy down and hold them back from trying to take objectives. I think thats still a pretty valuable use for them even if I personally am not a "Wyche guy" and have played a more Coven oriented list. This formula of curb stomping enemy mobility while maintaining my own has worked well for me.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Creeping Dementia wrote:

HQ: usually used The Baron, The Lady, and sometimes the Duke. Occasionally a Haemy thrown in.
Now with the Baron gone I'm not sure if Hellions are going to be survivable enough, even with the point drop.
Not sure what I want to do with my HQs now.

Troops: My lists were generally wych heavy. 3-4 MSU Wych venom units with Haywires. I would also run a large unit of Bloodbrides with Malys, or a Raider Kabalite squad if I took Duke. The Hellions would also cover some troop requirements too.

Rest of the units: not really affected too much.

So how should I switch up my lists to be able to compete a little?
.
Thoughts?

Well the Dark Eldar are really all about the power of speed. Wyches can now be on a door step turn one absolutely guaranteed. So Raiders full of them instead of Venoms would make sense, using the Aethersile. Just gun the engines and plop 60 Wyches in front of enemy troopss. Start popping cans with the Ravagers and Scourges. Force the enemy to decide if they like killing anti-tank or anti-personell more but they cant have it all.

I think that your list will just HAVE more wyches per squad and will have to rely on, as you said, Generics to beef them up. But the dont all need beefing, just mainly the ones attacking the really hard targets, but your Grotesques are kinds there for that purpose.

Disallowing the enemy to move for two rounds is actually not that small a thing and the Wyches will be able to pin theenemy down and hold them back from trying to take objectives. I think thats still a pretty valuable use for them even if I personally am not a "Wyche guy" and have played a more Coven oriented list. This formula of curb stomping enemy mobility while maintaining my own has worked well for me.

Your mileage may vary, but your 60 wyches in raiders could run into some problems.
First you have a 50% chance of going second, and having all your wyches stuck on your side of the board.
Second once you zoom over, the enemy can start popping transports. Of course you could jink, but at that range they will bring everything to bare and likely explode a few, killing 60% of the girls in each downed boat. A few flamers will kill even more, and then the remaing boats get assaulted. When it comes to assaulted you are mostly alright, as most CC attacks can only glance you down so no explosion unless you get "no escape"

What is left of the 60 girls might be enough, but it might not

My advice is in the interest of maximizing the OP's mileage with what he already has as much as thats poissible,\\


There are some answers to what you bring up. If you go second, you know that ahead of time. You know the ranges and where the enemy is. Be outside those ranges or be in reserve. Then the "trapped on the other side just wont happen. It wont allow you to trap the enemy AS easily but it WILL allow you to force the issue of which direction they have to go.

You need to embrace that the transports arewnt important. A means to an end. them getting popped, while regrettable, is why you're taking larger squads. And lets face it, a 4+ Jink is in no way sucky and if its night fight...psh... 3 HP's each? I think Ill take my chances.

Again I dont run Wyches because I like a lot of other things aesthetically and tactically for my style of play but Wyches played like this are really going to give ou some good production with the models you have and my goal was to give you ideas.

Aethersails now give you 36" moves so there is nowhere you cannot get and holding back behind the 48" line hurts you not at all, because in round one you're THERE with a move+Disembark in yer very near future!

Worried about flamers? You should be. But there is an answer to that to. Don't get within 14" of the enemy carrying it or block them off and only let one of them hit you. We all know certain units that Torrent like the Hellhound doies and there IS only so much you can do but I think the production will outweigh the losses.

I ran 4x5 Wyches in Venoms last night in my match against Blood Angels, Hydra Gauntlets and Hekatrix w/haywire in each. Turn two, 3/4 of the units got assaults off, timed with my Reaver units' hammers and that was basically the game right there. The rest of the match he was on his heels, running Mephiston and a late-arriving Furioso into existing CCs to rescue his guys while I dominated Maelstrom objectives with little resistance.

It was definitely different though because his land Raider survived until turn 5, whereas with the old Codex my Wyches would have very easily ended it probably turn two.

The Reavers were spectacular, dashing out of combat and all pouncing on Meph while he was in another CC, killing him with rending. Caltrops are amazing.

Caltrops ARE amazing. Now an autarch and farseer in the reaver unit... mm mm mm.

Thanks for the input so far guys, at this point I'm likely going to go with the Real Space detachment thing. Probably a haemy with wwp and grotesques, 3-4 units of Scourges, 2-3 units of Reavers. 2 units of Wyches in venoms to leave in reserves as well. Or something like that.
Gives me an excuse to paint up some more Scourges and Reavers, best models ever

 Creeping Dementia wrote:
Thanks for the input so far guys, at this point I'm likely going to go with the Real Space detachment thing. Probably a haemy with wwp and grotesques, 3-4 units of Scourges, 2-3 units of Reavers. 2 units of Wyches in venoms to leave in reserves as well.

bunch of grotesques coming down with the liquifiers pinpoint could be nice.

I was curious to ask, people have pretty much always written hellions off as complete trash, people are basically saying the exact same now, but with the changes are they basically the same, even worse, or do points drops make them slightly better, even if they are still trash?

They are worse in my opinion, drugs got weaker and they lost an attack - that's kind of a big deal.

I am trying to get into Space Marines and honestly I am trying to run melee marines. Would I fair better running Dark Eldar?

FYI for everyone Ravagers are still a great choice. You can move 6" and shoot all or move 12" and shoot 2. Not the end of the world. Same cost as last edition just no 5++ or -6" range shooting at them. Still a steal.

BunkerBob wrote:I am trying to get into Space Marines and honestly I am trying to run melee marines. Would I fair better running Dark Eldar?

If your goal is to run Marines, then no

I would say DE, again, felt some nerfage as far as assault (for reasons that continue to escape me)

They do have some decent assault tools left though, and can run a melee heavy build, though a lot of their strength remains in shooting. I would say as far as melee builds go they're certainly competitive with Marines. But you tend to be doing more with non-basic infantry in DE builds.

Incognito15 wrote:FYI for everyone Ravagers are still a great choice. You can move 6" and shoot all or move 12" and shoot 2. Not the end of the world. Same cost as last edition just no 5++ or -6" range shooting at them. Still a steal.

If they were the same cost I think there would be no debate as to their value. They are not the same cost though.

 BunkerBob wrote:
I am trying to get into Space Marines and honestly I am trying to run melee marines. Would I fair better running Dark Eldar?

DE is a glass cannon, unforgiving and has steep learning curve.
I'd start with vanilla Marines.

Altayre wrote:
I was curious to ask, people have pretty much always written hellions off as complete trash, people are basically saying the exact same now, but with the changes are they basically the same, even worse, or do points drops make them slightly better, even if they are still trash?

They are worse overall now. They used to be barely viable when you added the Baron to them, he increased their mobility and survivability. Now they are a little cheaper, which is good, but they also have less attacks, grenade problems, worse drugs, and no way to boost them through characters. The models are still cool though.

So you're saying I should go with Daemons?

 BunkerBob wrote:
So you're saying I should go with Daemons?

Better with criminal Eldar summoning Daemons.

The only part of Eldar that I do like is their wraithguard, that is truly it. I've used easy button armies plenty, I just want to get to enjoy something besides stand and shoot armies. I would definitely prefer to be melee focused and have a chance of winning, so thats why I was building this marine army but I love lightning warfare with the Dark Eldar using heavy cannons strapped to a paper plane and their forgeworld heavy cannon on a paper plane looks amazing. The only reason I am considering Daemons is because I can use them in fantasy.

 BunkerBob wrote:
The only part of Eldar that I do like is their wraithguard, that is truly it. I've used easy button armies plenty, I just want to get to enjoy something besides stand and shoot armies. I would definitely prefer to be melee focused and have a chance of winning, so thats why I was building this marine army but I love lightning warfare with the Dark Eldar using heavy cannons strapped to a paper plane and their forgeworld heavy cannon on a paper plane looks amazing. The only reason I am considering Daemons is because I can use them in fantasy.

Slightly off topic, but do you know Justin, or are you just using his picture as your avatar?

It looks like a power fist, he a suit on I am happy. I have no idea how I found the photo I've been using it for years I just liked it.

Okay, it's just odd because I actually know the guy

Dark eldar might have lost out on some of the random things that could be better but they got a lot of consistancy. No longer is it a matter of trying to get tokens or if you cant get tokens(like against a low KP list). Buffs are consistant(like from haemies) and you can plan around that. You know that on turn 5 and later your army is going to be fearless. So you dont have to worry about running at the end of the game. Webway portals and things of that nature remove dice variability from the game. What that brings you in tactical flexibility can not be really measured in points. The knowledge that it is going to work 100% the way you want to is very powerful. I think once people are able to get out there and see how consistent things are happening and being able to prepare strategies around it then the true power of the book will show itself.

Imagine for example it is turn 4. You know that you are getting fearless next turn so no matter what is shot at you, you go to ground because you know they will auto get up at the start of your turn.

Now that is powerful.