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Just wondering! Why in this game is there so much competitive player hate? it's a fun game. I can't help it if I want to win and play powerful list. Please help me understand why in this game playing a good list or something powerful makes everyone hate you.FYI I'm a Tau player.

Do you take more than 2 riptides? More than 1 unit of missile broadsides?

A fun game involves all parties having fun. It helps to have balanced, all comers lists rather than I look 4 riptides and allied a knight titan because reasons.

Because not everyone can afford to by the new ''bestest thing'' or for some other reason, they don't keep up to date with the current power lists and have been using the same kind of army, either because of theme or model limitations, for a long time and have no intention to change them.

In this way, maybe you are fortunate enough to have the money to buy the new vogue army but if you play someone who just happens to be playing his Blood Angles Assault Marine horde because he likes the idea of Vampire Jump Jet Psychos and you instantly wipe out a unit a turn with an ignore cover Ion Accelorator where he gets no saves whatsoever and you only have to roll a 2 to kill him, kinda sucks the fun out of games.

Competitive players only get hate if they throw their competitive lists down the throats of people not prepared for the power creep. So have a convosation with people about hwat kind of game they want before throwing your Riptides down their throat?

Because the game is poorly written it is actually possible to have "competitive" and "friendly" armies, whereas they should be terms for how people approach the game.

The discrepancy between a top tier, optimised list and pretty much anything else is such that it frequently isn't fun for people to play against them, and by the nature of PUGs, especially, it seems, in the States, people often find themselves unable to negotiate sufficiently beforehand to get an even game (coupled with the subjective nature of what is or isn't a "competitive" list, negotiation isn't always a guarantee either.)

If people don't enjoy something, they're unlikely to think well of it.

Additionally, competitive is often conflated with WAAC and the associated poor attitude, cheating etc that comes with that label, even if this isn't necessarily the case in the majority of players.

Personally, I find that the nature of most competitive lists (identify the most efficient unit, take as many of those units as you can) is visually boring and uninteresting to play against, regardless of whether I table it or get my ass handed to me.

its usually attitude combined with the fact the other player stands no chance and has usually lost in turn 2.

Attitude is the primary thing, in my experience the "competitive" player doesn't laugh at bad rolls or funny situations and get angry if by chance they do not crush the other player.

Its a game so if we are not having fun, its a waste of time to play.

So to get this right. In this game I want to purchase and spend time painting bad models that don't win games? IE Vespids. Cause people don't want to update their armies. Seems like a backwards way of playing a game. We'll maybe this isn't the game for me then. I'm not going to spend money on models that suck in the game. As far as being a WAAC. I don't cheat on purpose. I may get some rules wrong being how I'm only 6 months into the game. I do play 3 riptides but I do like the model and was going to order the two FW riptides.

People rage about competitive players because they creep into friendly/casual settings and this can make the game unpleasant for them. I like running big squads of Marines and getting into assault as much as possible, I don't want to have to resort to my tournament lists all the time.

Just tell your opponent before the game that you are an intensely competitive player and you try to bring the best lists you can. Then they can prepare properly or simply not play if that isn't the sort of game they want to play.

Some people want to be able to use a wide variety of models, but the game is so poorly balanced that they can't use them while expecting a competitive game them if their opponent only brings the best lists every time. For some players it is boring to use the same cookie cutter optimum list every time, especially if you aren't in a tournament.

Perhaps you are a great general, perhaps you are a great list builder, perhaps both, but if you only use the best lists possible, you really can't tell how good you are as a general, because you will likely often be facing inferior lists and have no need for great generalship skills. Try using less optimized lists, especially in less competitive environments, and you may find that this forces you to become a better general. It is easy to win if your army is superior, but that is no great accomplishment. It is hard to win if your list is inferior and that is a significant accomplishment.

Sometimes people just want to push models around, throw some dice and have some laughs. That doesn't really work if the other guy only uses the best lists possible every game.

Deleted. i can't even post a list LoL screw this game!!!

You'll want to edit that list.

Total points values are ok, breakdowns of upgrade costs flirt a little too closely with copyright violations for Dakka's liking.

I find that it is not about the list, it is about the attitude.

Hmm... six Missilesides and two Riptides, plus the Commander's with the drones I imagine? This isn't tournament-winning uber-spam, but I'd say that it's somewhere on the upper scale of semi-competitive. To be fair though, most casual lists struggle with the weight of fire that Tau can put out.

It's cool. I think I will just go back to playing Magic or find another war game. I can't even post a list without some rules. Thanks everyone for the help. This just isn't the game for me. I can't play or put money and time into not being able to win.

ramman2004 wrote:
So to get this right. In this game I want to purchase and spend time painting bad models that don't win games? IE Vespids. Cause people don't want to update their armies. Seems like a backwards way of playing a game. We'll maybe this isn't the game for me then. I'm not going to spend money on models that suck in the game. As far as being a WAAC. I don't cheat on purpose. I may get some rules wrong being how I'm only 6 months into the game. I do play 3 riptides but I do like the model and was going to order the two FW riptides.

Your approach of "I'm only going to buy the best models that give me the best chance of winning" isn't inherently wrong, but is an attitude that can only propagate because of the terribly lop sided power balance that exists in 40K.

All the other big name games don't suffer from this to nearly the same degree. While you can certainly make life harder for yourself with your list building choices in any game, 40K is the only game where it can effectively decide the outcome before any dice are rolled.

Conventional thinking in Warmachine is that essentially anything can be made to work well enough that you can give a good account of yourself, Infinity players have a saying "it's not your list, it's you" and nobody loses their gak over Y Wing spam in X Wing.

What people who campaign for better balance in 40K want is for the power curve to be flattened with fewer outliers, so if you love Riptides then taking three shouldn't get you accused of being a douchebag and if you want to run Vespids then there should be a way of doing so that means you won't lose practically every game you play. Some people interpret balance as making the game more bland and boring, but this isn't the case, much could be done to make the game more balanced simply by adjusting points values, without changing how units operate one bit.

ramman2004 wrote:
So to get this right. In this game I want to purchase and spend time painting bad models that don't win games? IE Vespids. Cause people don't want to update their armies. Seems like a backwards way of playing a game. We'll maybe this isn't the game for me then. I'm not going to spend money on models that suck in the game. As far as being a WAAC. I don't cheat on purpose. I may get some rules wrong being how I'm only 6 months into the game. I do play 3 riptides but I do like the model and was going to order the two FW riptides.

Isn't this massively hypocritical? Why are you allowed to buy and play models you like, while others are destined to lose if they do the same with other models? i LOVE Harlequins, i love the models and the fluff and i think the rules make sense for the fluff, but i simply cannot use them in a game with an army like yours because they would do nothing but give away points. Heck, due to the psychic ability they might get close, but then they get shredded on the charge by that OP ability were your entire army gets to overwatch. People get iffy when they get the kind of games they were not expecting, because IF you told me pre-game what kind of cut throat game it would be i would bring my most competitive list to meet yours and whoop your ass

ramman2004 wrote:
It's cool. I think I will just go back to playing Magic or find another war game. I can't even post a list without some rules. Thanks everyone for the help. This just isn't the game for me. I can't play or put money and time into not being able to win.

...well that was a little harsh.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to win. A lot of the hate comes from people playing "Flavor of the month" or cheese/spam lists that only work until rules get patched. A lot of it also comes from intentionally trying to bend/cheat rules to your favor.

Also, there is hate against people who tailor their lists against yours. I played a guy who asked if I had any fliers. I said one. He proceeded to write a list that had nothing but fliers and obviously tabled me.

ramman2004 wrote:
Deleted. i can't even post a list LoL screw this game!!!

Nope, that isn't what I said.

You can post a list, you can post a whole list with unit points values. What makes the Mods twitchy is when you post a breakdown of all the upgrade costs. GW are a litigious bully of a company, and if you publish all the info that means a list doesn't need a codex, it skirts too close to the line.

But you are correct, the golden goose that is 40K is being slowly strangled, there are massive issues for many people that need addressing, and if you don't have an existing affection for the game or the lore, it is a hard sell right now.

Don't let it out you off tabletop Wargames though, there are plenty (Warmachine/Hordes especially) that are much better geared up for strongly competitive play. GW want 40K to be some sort of tabletop battle RPG, and don't seem to care that many of the players do not.

I'm just incredibly frustrated right now with this game. I've never played a game where the objective was to lose. I've had fun getting stomped by competitive builds it only makes me improve my list. Not complain and want my opponent to play bad list so I can win. If a model sucks it doesn't make it your opponents fault.

You just need to find better opponents or at least let them know that you're bringing a pretty decent list beforehand. If they start complaining at that point, then it's their fault, not yours. There's nothing wrong with wanting to win, but IMHO 40k is better when everyone's having fun (and if that means that both players are playing competitively, then good for them).

I find players who say "I play for fun, I don´t care about winning or losing" and then get angry/annoyed when they continously lose to a competitive army hilarious.

Definition of paradoxical.

Other than that, don´t mind the "40K/GW is dying/worse than ever/people are leaving/bla bla bla." It´s been going on since the 3rd edition and still somehow there´s more players now than ever before. It´s unsatisfied people who make the most noise - the happy ones don´t voice themselves even half as loud. Infact I think a player who is unhappy with the game makes 10 times more noise about it than someone who is fine with it - doesn´t mean the content players don´t exist.

Not what we are saying in the slightest.

Play people with the same mindset as you, you will find thousands of them at tournaments all around the world who want to play games just like you with the best lists they can get.

What we are saying is you shouldn't walk into your FLGS with that list and expect the resident Blood Angles player to have a fun game with you.

P.S. If you go to a tournement, your list could use some tweeks. For example the Devil Fish are not a good use of points and you are lacking in Marker Lights since most of your Markerlights are in one unit. You could also ally in some Psychic defense, because right now an Invisible Centaurion Star lead by Tiggy + Draigo would walk through your 2+ save army like a knife through hot butter...only easier.

P.S. If you go to a tournement, your list could use some tweeks. For example the Devil Fish are not a good use of points and you are lacking in Marker Lights since most of your Markerlights are in one unit. You could also ally in some Psychic defense, because right now an Invisible Centaurion Star lead by Tiggy + Draigo would walk through your 2+ save army like a knife through hot butter...only easier.

This is what I'm saying. My list isn't even %100 percent perfect. It has holes which I'm working on and I still get complaints cause I run 3 riptides. I have no physkers nor CC ability. So i make that up with Markerlights and Riptides but thats too OP. It makes my laugh and cry at the same time.

Its more like games of Magic where people decide they want to do some sort of Skyshroud legion deck, without caring if the Skyshroiders have the cards to make a "good" deck. If you knew your friends wanted to bring wonky decks, would you still bring a tourny deck to the game?

 RunicFIN wrote:
I find players who say "I play for fun, I don´t care about winning or losing" and then get angry/annoyed when they continously lose to a competitive army hilarious.

I think you'll find you only quoted part of that hypothetical poster, the full quote is "I play for fun, I don´t care about winning or losing as long as I have fun."

The issue is playing against a competitive army is frequently not fun if you're unprepared for it.

Its more like games of Magic where people decide they want to do some sort of Skyshroud legion deck, without caring if the Skyshroiders have the cards to make a "good" deck. If you knew your friends wanted to bring wonky decks, would you still bring a tourny deck to the game?

I never had friends that would spend money on bad cards.

I was just reading a post above this one about Eldar. It makes me laugh when people say this unit is good so you can't run it. You have to run the crappier unit or everyone will hate you. It's just so funny. If I could give someone new advice. It would be buy the worst units then at least you can find a game and then if you lose against someone that bring good units just complain they have the good units..

People can start taking it too far especially when things get heated.

Usually it happens a lot with competitive players though i can happen with fluff bunnies too.

Then people get salty

If you lose to a good list. The draw to this game should be to build a better list. To strategize and figure how you can leverage your tools. Not just complain about losing and chalk it up to the guy being a Dbag. IE: I got merked buy a dropod list. Centurions in my face. I didn't cry instead I bought EWO for my tides and improved my deployment stratagy.

ramman2004 wrote:

Its more like games of Magic where people decide they want to do some sort of Skyshroud legion deck, without caring if the Skyshroiders have the cards to make a "good" deck. If you knew your friends wanted to bring wonky decks, would you still bring a tourny deck to the game?

I never had friends that would spend money on bad cards.

You and your friends have never bought booster packs?

ramman2004 wrote:
If you lose to a good list. The draw to this game should be to build a better list. To strategize and figure how you can leverage your tools. Not just complain about losing and chalk it up to the guy being a Dbag. IE: I got merked buy a dropod list. Centurions in my face. I didn't cry instead I bought EWO for my tides and improved my deployment stratagy.

No, the draw to the game should be to be good at playing the game. List building should be an element, but right now too many match ups are effectively decided at the list building stage.

It's like it only being worth playing Red at a competitive level, because it was demonstrably better than the other four colours. Sure, if your objective was to win, you play red, but if after a while you wanted the chance to experiment with other colours to keep things interesting, wouldn't you find it frustrating that your choice was "win or experiment" and not have the ability to do both?