Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Not head to head, but if you're combining, what do you bring.

Anti Tank: Fire Dragons, Scourge with heat lances, Scourge with Haywire Blasters.
Fire Dragons are best, but to get enough to be dependable, they get pricy. They also need a ride, further added to the cost.
Heat Lance scourge are cheaper and can pull double duty from longer range, picking off 2+/3+ armor opponents. Problem is, most 2+/3+ armor I'm shooting at is usually in cover or has an invul, really wrecking the cost effectiveness of 4 shots.
Haywire scourge are most likely more dependable tank killers, as they can do it from a much safer range, and can pull double duty lobbing blasts at hordes. You can't engage 2+ or 3+ armor in an effective way, but you do have plenty of other units that can.

My choice would be Haywire scourge.


Anti-Air: Bomber, Razor, Crimson.
While the bomber is packing S9 lances and the Razor is cheaper, re-rolling to pen with 4 S8 BS5 shots puts the Crimson way out in first place for dominating the skies.
The bomber fills a role in ground attacks. The Razor lands between, and I don't see a good reason to take it.


More to come...

Cheap DE hq's with the WWP can be incredible delivery machanisms for many Elday units.

I disagree about the razorwing which IMO is far better then the bomber. At 140 is packs 4 s 6 large blasts, 6 s5 ap2 shots plus another 6 poison 4+ shots meaning not only does it engage infantry just as well as the bomber but it far exceeds it at at FMC, the specific AA DE needs help with.

I am really liking heat lance reavers with caltrops for anti tank (well anti everything really).

For anti air you should consider waveserpents. They are actually the best AA in the CWE codex.

Eldar can provide H Toughness and armour that's tough to break
Psychics
Reserve Manipulation

And

Dark Eldar provide a WWP
Cheap Anti Tank
Great Jet Bikes
An Excellent Mechanic for units coming in from Reserve


Not to mention that Eldar have spells that reduce LD and D. Eldar have weapons that wound based on LD.

I'll pay 300 points for a Deep Striking Non Scattering Unit with 5 Templates that Instadeath on 6, yes please.

Frankly, I'll play my Eldar pure without allies.
My Serpent list is too good to mix it with some kin from the dark city.
In larger pt games I'd be willing to consider DE allies.
For this, I'd consider a small Coven force led by a Haemie.

Since my little gaming group plays at 1000 for now I'm very limited, but so far my Eldar/Dark Eldar plans are almost entirely Glass Cannon and trickery. Two Serpents with Bright Lance Guardians, Reavers with a Telepathy Farseer and Raiders set up to Jink the entire time they're on the ground while the passengers do all the shooting. A very different list than my Alaitoc Snipers so I'm looking forward to finishing it up.

Crimson is useless. Way overpriced, AV10 paper thin. No thanks.

Haywire Scourge sounds good, but you're forgetting WraithKnights it seems.

How do those Scourge fare in terms of resilience though, would it not be interesting to have them in a Wave Serpent ?

I think the key wins of DE codex should be considered: Reaver Jetbikes, Clawed Fiend pack, WWP - what use could they be in a combined army ?

morgoth wrote:
Crimson is useless. Way overpriced, AV10 paper thin. No thanks.

Haywire Scourge sounds good, but you're forgetting WraithKnights it seems.

How do those Scourge fare in terms of resilience though, would it not be interesting to have them in a Wave Serpent ?

I think the key wins of DE codex should be considered: Reaver Jetbikes, Clawed Fiend pack, WWP - what use could they be in a combined army ?

Crimson is the same armor and hull points as the two DE flyers. If AV10 is useless, you shouldn't be taking any of them. I like the Crimson with an autarch, and comm relays. +1/-1 on reserves with a re-roll gives you a very good chance at bringing it in when you need it.
Scourge are half the cost of a wraith knight. I'll take 8 haywire blasts over 2 S10 shots any day. Scourge are jump infantry, so they cannot be transported. Even if they could, what's the point in putting them in a transport that they cannot shoot out of? The Knights are a durable choice, with some anti-tank. Scourge are packing a lot more firepower, and a lot less durable. I don't really see scourge vs wraithknight as decision.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Crimson is useless. Way overpriced, AV10 paper thin. No thanks.

Haywire Scourge sounds good, but you're forgetting WraithKnights it seems.

How do those Scourge fare in terms of resilience though, would it not be interesting to have them in a Wave Serpent ?

I think the key wins of DE codex should be considered: Reaver Jetbikes, Clawed Fiend pack, WWP - what use could they be in a combined army ?

Crimson is the same armor and hull points as the two DE flyers. If AV10 is useless, you shouldn't be taking any of them. I like the Crimson with an autarch, and comm relays. +1/-1 on reserves with a re-roll gives you a very good chance at bringing it in when you need it.
Scourge are half the cost of a wraith knight. I'll take 8 haywire blasts over 2 S10 shots any day. Scourge are jump infantry, so they cannot be transported. Even if they could, what's the point in putting them in a transport that they cannot shoot out of? The Knights are a durable choice, with some anti-tank. Scourge are packing a lot more firepower, and a lot less durable. I don't really see scourge vs wraithknight as decision.

I'm not taking an AV10 flyer to a game anytime soon. I have two on shelf, they're pretty nice looking.

So you spend on an autarch, a comms relay, and an overpriced plane ? May we agree that this discussion is not about optimization at all ?

Nice for the Scourges, I was thinking about Wave Serpent delivery to make them deliver their one good shot. But then WWP is probably better right ?

I see any AV vs any AV as a decision. If I already have 2WK, I don't bring 3x5 Fire Dragons.


Those scourges have my attention. on to the codex I go.

Indeed, a single AV 10 flyer is next to useless.
Bolter bring them down or an ADL with anti-air.

I also love the Razorwing, but I'm content to keep it at the stock 130 points. I don't think I've ever had a game where it didn't earn its points back from the missile barrage alone.

Sure AV 10 is fragile, but are you afraid of a bunch of tacticals and such shooting at you? I'd much rather have them focus their shots at my jinking razorwing to keep them from shooting all my other AV 10 targets that get hit on 3+ instead. I think of it like the tank in an MMO, part of its job is just to bring attention to itself while I jink and fly off. If I survive, I come back on the next turn and rack up surprisingly more kills with either 6 more str 5 ap2 shots and 2 more missiles or just the dissie and splinter shots depending on how much I unloaded the first turn.

morgoth wrote:

I'm not taking an AV10 flyer to a game anytime soon. I have two on shelf, they're pretty nice looking.
So you spend on an autarch, a comms relay, and an overpriced plane ? May we agree that this discussion is not about optimization at all ?
Nice for the Scourges, I was thinking about Wave Serpent delivery to make them deliver their one good shot. But then WWP is probably better right ?
I see any AV vs any AV as a decision. If I already have 2WK, I don't bring 3x5 Fire Dragons.
Those scourges have my attention. on to the codex I go.

DE, army wide, have tons of deep striking. Having +1/-1 and re-rolls benefits the whole army.
A defense line is a nice place to put a warrior unit for a turn, until all those deep striking units arrive.
An Autarch on jet bike gives a reaver unit that little extra punch it needs in combat.
I wouldn't take the Autarch just for the flyer, I'd take him for the 5 attacks at S6 and AP3.

Scourge have a 24" range with the haywire. They come with deep strike. You don't need the WWP or transport. They have more than enough range to be able to land fairly safe and still pour out effective fire.

I think eldar players tend to see the crimson hunter as garbage because of the AV 10 being much less survivable than most other eldar vehicles/wraithknight.

For DE players this is just a way of life, so its not really an issue.

I think the Crimson is superior anti air to the dark eldar flyers.

If you are playing multiple detachments I see ADL+ some skyfire gun in 1 detachment, and taking other skyfire guns as battlefield debris from whatever other detachments is probably a better bet, as they also come with interceptor.

blaktoof wrote:
I think eldar players tend to see the crimson hunter as garbage because of the AV 10 being much less survivable than most other eldar vehicles/wraithknight.
For DE players this is just a way of life, so its not really an issue.
I think the Crimson is superior anti air to the dark eldar flyers.
If you are playing multiple detachments I see ADL+ some skyfire gun in 1 detachment, and taking other skyfire guns as battlefield debris from whatever other detachments is probably a better bet, as they also come with interceptor.

If you running a combined eldar and dark eldar, what would you take for anti-air?
4 S8 AP2 shots is pretty appealing to me.

Crimson hunter packs great anti-tank / anti-air. And is fairly durable being a flyer. Eldar players just got lazy with serpents and knights.

I'll treat this as pure DE vs pure CWE. A standard detachment can get 2 HQs aka 2 WWPs. This lets you get Blasters where you need to to get rid of a few Serpents. 6 FA slots lets you get multiple squads of Beastpacks and Scourges. Scourges got Haywire to take care of anothe Serpent or 2. Beastpacks are good because most (not all) CWE aren't good in CC (barring that Inviz, which makes Storm Guardians stand tall against Terminators). Poison shot the hell out of WKs or Artillery.

 RancidHate wrote:
I'll treat this as pure DE vs pure CWE. A standard detachment can get 2 HQs aka 2 WWPs. This lets you get Blasters where you need to to get rid of a few Serpents. 6 FA slots lets you get multiple squads of Beastpacks and Scourges. Scourges got Haywire to take care of anothe Serpent or 2. Beastpacks are good because most (not all) CWE aren't good in CC (barring that Inviz, which makes Storm Guardians stand tall against Terminators). Poison shot the hell out of WKs or Artillery.

DE need 3 units of 5 scourges (with 4 haywire) to bring down one waveserpent with 3+ jink, and 5 scourge with 4 haywire cost almost the same as serpent
trueborn with 4 blaster did better , however it's not cheap (>200 points without transport ) and only T3 5+ save

I am a DE player but I have to say pure Eldar kick pure DE's ass.

wolverineD wrote:

I am a DE player but I have to say pure Eldar kick pure DE's ass.

I don't know about that.

With 6 FA in a CAD... there are things that could wreck Eldar a lot better than haywire blasters.

Thing is, shooting at a Wave Serpent is almost always a bad deal.

 Red Corsair wrote:
I disagree about the razorwing which IMO is far better then the bomber. At 140 is packs 4 s 6 large blasts, 6 s5 ap2 shots plus another 6 poison 4+ shots meaning not only does it engage infantry just as well as the bomber but it far exceeds it at at FMC, the specific AA DE needs help with.

I agree, the Razorwing is the anti infantry choice. The VR Bomber is kinda sitting there 60 -80 points more expensive than it should be. With missiles and upgrades this thing ends up costing more than a storm raven and is still just AV10.