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Hi everbody and thanks for your time! I'm looking to return to 40K and as our resident Tau keeps beating everyone else up I'd like to know which of my "final 2" army choices does potetially wreck the blue squishies harder: Chaos Space Marines or Dark Eldar? We don't have either in our gaming group so far, so I have no idea how they'd fare. I guess Dark Eldar could be very good with their closing speed whilst CSM might fnd it harder to compete?

Again, thanks for any input (specific units/tactics would be great, too!)

Dark Eldar.
Do this.
2x Archon, webway portals
2x10 grotesques
2x5 warriors
6 beast packs, with 10 khymera and 2 beast masters
Beast Packs rush forward, Grotesques pop out and raise hell.
And that's 1690 points. It might also be the most expen$ive army ever, unless you like conversions.

-Matt

But those conversions are easy and characterful. Rat Ogresm ake great Grotesques when you add a few Talos bits, Fell Wargs make great Khymerae and Hellions are easy enough to make Beast Masters. Reavers are also really good at speedy assaullys, but be careful, their entire save is there cover save, so take out those Marker Lights early.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Dark Eldar.
Do this.
2x Archon, webway portals
2x10 grotesques
2x5 warriors
6 beast packs, with 10 khymera and 2 beast masters
Beast Packs rush forward, Grotesques pop out and raise hell.
And that's 1690 points. It might also be the most expen$ive army ever, unless you like conversions.

-Matt

Looks interesting.
However, I'd take Hamies instead of Grotesques for fluff and buffing.

The thing about fighting tau with a melee army is that everything has to hit the tau line at once, and it has to happen turn 2 or 3 at the latest.

viable units vs tau for csm are:
5 nurgle spawn (x3)
Nurgle chaos lords with fist and lightning claw kn bike (x2)
Flying nurgle princes with burning brand and malefic psychic powers.

Okay units:
Autocannon havoks
Land raiders (requires bubble wrap - barely playable - put something cheap in it)
Minimum nurgle biker squads (with special weapons)
Heldrakes
Noise marines (small units)
Helcult
Obliterators

That's about it.... If you want more chance, ally in 20 khorne flesh hounds.

Basically anything that makes it to combat auto wins so your strategy should be to have 90% of your army at point blank range at end of turn 1 (take 2 rounds of shooting -regular + overwatch) then multicharge and win.

Remember if you multicharge fire warriors and a riptide you don't even need to damage the tide, if you kill the warriors they will both break and you can sweeping advance the riptide.

Also don't let him use any forge world units maked with 'experimental rules, imperial sanction not yet granted' because they are broken as all hell.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
You can also ally in a come the apocalypse converted chaos imperial knight (just make sure to deploy outside of 12" of it). That would hold up a flank nicely and the spawn can threaten any fusion that might try and deal with it (park your ass next to the flank board edge to prevent rear armour deep strikes and try to get him into combat at the same time as the rest of your army)

 wuestenfux wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Dark Eldar.
Do this.
2x Archon, webway portals
2x10 grotesques
2x5 warriors
6 beast packs, with 10 khymera and 2 beast masters
Beast Packs rush forward, Grotesques pop out and raise hell.
And that's 1690 points. It might also be the most expen$ive army ever, unless you like conversions.

-Matt

Looks interesting.
However, I'd take Hamies instead of Grotesques for fluff and buffing.

Not really seeing why taking Haemies instead of Grotesques would accomplish anything, just randomly deep striking HQs won't do much.
I'd look at Reavers too, and Mandrakes. Reavers are fast enough to catch Riptide and other suits, hit hard, and are multipurpose.
Main problem with the entire DE line is they have no saves, just cover (and Tau often ignore cover) . So if you play on barren tables without LOS blockers, you're toast.

Which is why the list I posted as 60 T4 5+ invul saves, and 60 wounds worth of T5 5+ feel no pain.

Against Tau, you MUST kil all markerlight stuff. There is only 1 resistent ML platform: Sky Ray. Pathfinders, Tetras and Marker drones are easily killed by anything. Focus on those and you'll severely gimp Tau armies. The other important point is Crisis. Don't let those jump around - kill them!

Have multiple distractions. Tau usually focus on key units; give him many stuff he can't ignore but won't take too much points from you. Khorne dogs are a good example.

wtnind wrote:


Also don't let him use any forge world units maked with 'experimental rules, imperial sanction not yet granted' because they are broken as all hell.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
You can also ally in a come the apocalypse converted chaos imperial knight (just make sure to deploy outside of 12" of it). That would hold up a flank nicely and the spawn can threaten any fusion that might try and deal with it (park your ass next to the flank board edge to prevent rear armour deep strikes and try to get him into combat at the same time as the rest of your army)

I hope you see the contradiction here. IKs are as 'broken as all hell' and you dn't want to let your opponent use units with 'broken as all hell' rules? (And both new tides aren't as good as the codex one anyway) Lol.

I second the fact the FW riptides are not amazing. a powergaming tau will favor setting these points to codex riptides.


In any case, I said CSM. while DE is unquestinably a more solid codex, its a harsh matchup for them to go against tau, as they spam S5 and S7 very well, intercept very well, and ignore cover very well-three facts that DE despite.
CSM is more able to bring things like land raider walls that tau have a harder time to deal with.

I am a die hard chaos player and unfortunately I don't think we have much that can "scare" a hardened Tau player.

Tri-Las Pred Tanks maybe, just for the front armor 13 and bump to vehicles in 7th.
Landraiders with termis can be effective
Dirge casters on everything to stop that pesky supporting fire
Flying DP can be effective as long as you are mark of nurgle and hugging cover.

Its hard to play an army like the Tau with an army that is geared the way Chaos is.

 Vector Strike wrote:
Against Tau, you MUST kil all markerlight stuff. There is only 1 resistent ML platform: Sky Ray. Pathfinders, Tetras and Marker drones are easily killed by anything. Focus on those and you'll severely gimp Tau armies. The other important point is Crisis. Don't let those jump around - kill them!

Have multiple distractions. Tau usually focus on key units; give him many stuff he can't ignore but won't take too much points from you. Khorne dogs are a good example.

wtnind wrote:


Also don't let him use any forge world units maked with 'experimental rules, imperial sanction not yet granted' because they are broken as all hell.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
You can also ally in a come the apocalypse converted chaos imperial knight (just make sure to deploy outside of 12" of it). That would hold up a flank nicely and the spawn can threaten any fusion that might try and deal with it (park your ass next to the flank board edge to prevent rear armour deep strikes and try to get him into combat at the same time as the rest of your army)

I hope you see the contradiction here. IKs are as 'broken as all hell' and you dn't want to let your opponent use units with 'broken as all hell' rules? (And both new tides aren't as good as the codex one anyway) Lol.

Hmn I don't think IK are any worse than riptides, wraith knights and wave serpents. The Adamantine Lance formation is a bit much with its rerolls to the invuln saves but a regular knight on its own is just another powerful unit.

Chaos needs all the help it can get when it has to face the likes of Tau Firebase Support Cadre, buffmanders and all the other tau cheese.

The main problem I have with FW stuff that isn't approved is that they are released way to powerful to boost sales then nerfed later on. The original TAU XV107 R'VARNA for example was ridiculous when it was first released. The TAU XV109 Y'VAHRA is hardly better imo.

If the tau player uses vehicles a lot, I'd suggest Maulerfiends. They're fast, AV12 ignore S5 overwatch and invul 5++ is acceptable .

wtnind wrote:

The main problem I have with FW stuff that isn't approved is that they are released way to powerful to boost sales then nerfed later on. The original TAU XV107 R'VARNA for example was ridiculous when it was first released. The TAU XV109 Y'VAHRA is hardly better imo.

Well, and the best way to put such units in line is testing them and sending the feedback to Forgeworld. Just plain ignoring them is like sending a signal "They're ok! Put them in the book as they are now!"

Original 107 was too strong, but 109 is pretty ok (12" weapons)

I'd say Chaos just due to the fact that they can take more higher toughness models, despite being more costly, as far as I'm aware anyway, Nurgle Bikes, Spawn, and Maulerfiends are all ideal assault units for taking on Tau, they're fast and hit hard, which is what is needed against gun line Tau.

Also consider some ranged options to deal with Flyers, Tanks and pick off the odd models here and there, Havocs are plentiful but quite squishy, Obliterators are better, but much more expensive and can only be taken in small numbers, so think maybe 2-4 if you take them, in 2 squads of 2 if you max them out.

Finally, Plague and Noise marines are useful, Plague Marines toughness still matters against Tau! Even if only a little bit, and Noise Marines are great for picking off key units like Pathfinders, though they are a very static unit and have to be positioned well to work against a Gunline.

So all in all I'd say take a Lord or a Sorcerer on a bike, either with the Mark of Nurgle or unmarked if the Sorcerer, (I like Nurgle Sorcerers personally, though many don't) and lots of spawn and/or bikers, with Mauler/Forgefiends.

Hope any of that helps!

When playing CSM v. Tau, just field a variety of 12" movement assault units and see how well your opponent's target prioritisation is. Example units include Maulerfiends, Spawn, Bikers or a Land Raider carrying an assault specific squad.

Allied daemons are also useful. Use Khorne Dogs, Seekers, Screamers or even a Slaaneshi Soul Grinder.

People have the wrong impression when assaulting tau.

You need to hit fast, yes.
You DONT need to hit hard.
In fact, you usually shouldn't.


Most tau units fold like wet paper in front of any semi-decent unit out there. basic tactical marines are usually enough to take them out if you are not trying to get a 1-turn kill.
And as 1-turn kills leaves you stranded in the open, its not the go-to tactic you want.

Get stuck with tau units in CC. the'll get stuck forever at worst, and get eventually killed by lowly units at best.
You don't need an assault unit to beat tau in assault, you just need something that isn't dedicated shooty.
Any true assault unit will often find itself an overkill.

Boomwolf has it right. As I am the only tau player in my group I constantly find myself telling my friends why their amazing assault deathstar wiped one FW team then got pasted the next turn.

You don't need good assault units to beat tau in assault. Heck you don't really even need a good unit to beat tau in assault. You just need to have a unit that's not also tau lol (and one that lives through the beat down from supporting fire). A super expensive assault unit is just wasted points against Tau. A dead unit is a dead unit, doesn't matter HOW dead it is. The same rule of assault applies here as it does against any army, you DO NOT want to wipe a unit in one turn. You want them to last into their own turn before getting wiped, that way you can bounce from assault to assault. Being in rapid fire range of Tau is a death sentence for most anything.

As for which army, CSM for sure get my vote. Tau laugh at armies that rely on high T or cover saves, both of which are DE's only real forms of survival. Their speed won't generally help, as the range on most Tau guns will reach them as long as they have LOS.

On the other hand, Tau really struggle with AV14. Which CSM have ready access to. Toss some cheap chaos marine squads in a bunch of landraiders with dirgecasters. Roll up right on the tau line, assault them with cheap/hardy power armor units, laugh when you tell the Tau player that his precious Supporting Fire is useless because of the dirgecasters.

Thanks for the many fast and helpful replies guys! As the Dark Eldar had a bit of a headstart in the poll and replies up until yesterday I already placed my order for the codex and the coven supplement, looking very much forward to it!

I like the idea of using beast packs, webway portal(s) with grotesques and reaver jetbikes to put pressure on the Tau and have them pick their poison. The Dark Eldar seem to have access to a ton of cool and very dangerous units, and I can't wait to try them out.

Please keep going if you can think of anything else! What about the Dark Artisan formation (Haemi, Talos, Cronos) & Webway Portal for instance, or a Razorwing/Voidraven?

 Creeping Dementia wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Dark Eldar.
Do this.
2x Archon, webway portals
2x10 grotesques
2x5 warriors
6 beast packs, with 10 khymera and 2 beast masters
Beast Packs rush forward, Grotesques pop out and raise hell.
And that's 1690 points. It might also be the most expen$ive army ever, unless you like conversions.

-Matt

Looks interesting.
However, I'd take Hamies instead of Grotesques for fluff and buffing.

Not really seeing why taking Haemies instead of Grotesques would accomplish anything, just randomly deep striking HQs won't do much.
I'd look at Reavers too, and Mandrakes. Reavers are fast enough to catch Riptide and other suits, hit hard, and are multipurpose.
Main problem with the entire DE line is they have no saves, just cover (and Tau often ignore cover) . So if you play on barren tables without LOS blockers, you're toast.

Maybe he was meaning to say "Hamies instead of Archons"? Instead of Grotesques doesn't really make sense I think...

You mentioned Mandrakes, could you elaborate on that a little bit. How would you use them effectively against Tau? Harassing/Picking off Pathfinders?

At first glance, markerlights look like an excellent counter to mandrakes. Taking away their 2+ cover save makes them 6 times more vulnerable.

However, Mandrakes are masters of MSU. They occupy an FOC slot with very little competition and can be taken in units as small as 3. It's very possible to make a unit that's too durable to take out without markerlights, but not worth shooting an entire pathfinder squad to eliminate.

Basically, split your mandrakes up into the smallest groups you can.

Corollax wrote:
At first glance, markerlights look like an excellent counter to mandrakes. Taking away their 2+ cover save makes them 6 times more vulnerable.
However, Mandrakes are masters of MSU. They occupy an FOC slot with very little competition and can be taken in units as small as 3. It's very possible to make a unit that's too durable to take out without markerlights, but not worth shooting an entire pathfinder squad to eliminate.
Basically, split your mandrakes up into the smallest groups you can.

This.
Please, waste a pathfinder squad marking them, then waste another squad shooting them. You'll net 36 to 50 points.
But if you ignore them... we'll see how much firewarriors/pathfinders like S4 AP4 shooting.
That's what makes them good. Anything that's likely to kill them is massive over-kill.

It's like having a thorn in your finger and the only option for treatment is going to the ER.

You run your list very different than mine but I love DE vs Tau. 7 venoms full of guys backed up by Tantalus and Reapers cause havoc even on castled Tau. If they aren't smart enough to bond their suits so much the better. Very easy to strip drones and cause mass wounds to everything in the Tau list. I wouldn't even bring assault units. The one time I have tried ended in disaster for that unit. Just mass warriors and blasterborn in venoms, simple and very effective, especially with Night shields. I prefer Reapers over Ravagers. Last game I played I had half the Tau army running and most remaining squads missing at least one suit by the end of the first turn, the only things standing their ground for the most part were things I ignored and the riptide and HQ units. The weak point of Tau is everything dangerous is a toughness unit and like nids, easy prey for the DE.

I don't know chaos well enough to beat the tau I normally play against so no advice in that respect.

I would say to go for Chaos Space Marines too, the Dark Eldar make use of cover saves quite a lot and all of their vehicles can be damaged by basic Fire Warrior weaponry. But even with CSM, it wouldn't be the easiest task. Tau can munch through armour saves, so if your opponent has a Riptide with an IA you don't want a squad with power armour because a large AP2 blast will be coming your way and potentially that's a lot of points lost. But quantity over quality might not win you a game either, thanks to the quantity of S5 shots that can be produced by Fire Warriors, especially if they have a Cadre Fireblade or Ethereal attached.

I haven't played CSM so I don't know what their best chance against Tau is, but when I think of Chaos, I think of my hate for Flying Daemon Princes. Most of the times I've played against them have been bad experiences (the person playing them always spammed them or played them in smaller games). I haven't played against them in quite a while, and I'm definitely a lot more tactical with my unit choices and game strategy, but maybe putting a Prince in could do something for you.

tophit101 wrote:
I would say to go for Chaos Space Marines too, the Dark Eldar make use of cover saves quite a lot and all of their vehicles can be damaged by basic Fire Warrior weaponry. But even with CSM, it wouldn't be the easiest task. Tau can munch through armour saves, so if your opponent has a Riptide with an IA you don't want a squad with power armour because a large AP2 blast will be coming your way and potentially that's a lot of points lost. But quantity over quality might not win you a game either, thanks to the quantity of S5 shots that can be produced by Fire Warriors, especially if they have a Cadre Fireblade or Ethereal attached.

I haven't played CSM so I don't know what their best chance against Tau is, but when I think of Chaos, I think of my hate for Flying Daemon Princes. Most of the times I've played against them have been bad experiences (the person playing them always spammed them or played them in smaller games). I haven't played against them in quite a while, and I'm definitely a lot more tactical with my unit choices and game strategy, but maybe putting a Prince in could do something for you.

Thats a really good point about the firewarriors hurting DE vehicles, even more reason to not take DE against Tau unless you have to.

Personally I think a daemon prince is too expensive to take against Tau. Either you go for CC where you're gonna wipe basically any unit when you charge then get blown to bits the next turn cause basically every Tau gun is gonna wound you on at least a 4+, or you go for a shooty prince, who will die almost as easily even if hes flying and has 2+ cover saves because markerlights can make even the lowly firewarrior team go from zero to hero.

Tau buckle under pressure and have a hard time dealing with multiple units assaulting at the same time.

Edit: If I were running my CSM against Tau I would take Landraiders, spawn, and maulerfiends.

Chaos Space Marines all the way. Dark Eldar vehicles will get wrecked by Fire Warriors shooting, meaning that you can never escape from these guys.

Even just rhinos with Dirge Casters can help. Yes, missile pods will wreck them, but the key is throwing a lot of stuff down range at once.

Also, the Tau have no access to psykers and have generally low-ish leadership, so a chaos sorceror with telepathy is a nice idea.

FW have to have range on the DE vehicles though and 36" vs the tau's FW 24" is pretty significant. The DE can sit back in the 30-36 range band and annihilate tau troops. I think splinter cannon are still 6 shots each, 7 venoms are putting out roughly 25 wounds a shooting phase. Against anything but TEQs that will be a lot of failed armor saves and doesn't even count what the guys inside or other vehicles are putting out. On a normal table board sweep in on a flank and start pushing up the side with everything. On a lengthwise board, its in the bag and if they DS in a deathstar, you win.

Col. Dash wrote:
FW have to have range on the DE vehicles though and 36" vs the tau's FW 24" is pretty significant. The DE can sit back in the 30-36 range band and annihilate tau troops. I think splinter cannon are still 6 shots each, 7 venoms are putting out roughly 25 wounds a shooting phase. Against anything but TEQs that will be a lot of failed armor saves and doesn't even count what the guys inside or other vehicles are putting out. On a normal table board sweep in on a flank and start pushing up the side with everything. On a lengthwise board, its in the bag and if they DS in a deathstar, you win.

Firewarrior weapons have range of 30"

Also, they usually cower in devilfishes (3+ Jink) till they can jump and and shoot you with 3 S5 shots each at 15" (+1 shot for ethereal).

Night shields reduce this to 24" and every DE infantry unit is riding in a vehicle. I have never encountered mobile FW. Everyone I play that has Tau castles their broadsides, FW, and Riptides, while DSing their crisis.

Last I checked they have lost their ability to reduce your range. Or were NS not written out?

Flicker fields were written out except on Tantalus and Venoms. I know Night Shields are still options, I just sold my army so I hadn't read that they changed night shields. I would be surprised as that was a staple item at keeping the card board vehicles alive.

EDIT- ok, I was wrong they nerfed the hell out of Night shields. So much for that. Bring marines, at least you get an armor save.

Col. Dash wrote:
Flicker fields were written out except on Tantalus and Venoms. I know Night Shields are still options, I just sold my army so I hadn't read that they changed night shields. I would be surprised as that was a staple item at keeping the card board vehicles alive.

EDIT- ok, I was wrong they nerfed the hell out of Night shields. So much for that. Bring marines, at least you get an armor save.

yup, for the flavor.