Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Right, I'll keep this short and to the point.

Kurze sets about Vulkan with a fork = Vulkan dies. Mortarion cops twin demolisher cannons in the face = Mortarion survives.

Eh?!?

Well, it wasn't pure silverware and Vulkan has a nasty nickel allergy, so...

Prolonged trauma that overwhelms healing factor and targets vitals kills, single flash of burst-damage doesn't?

Don't see the discrepancy.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Prolonged trauma that overwhelms healing factor and targets vitals kills, single flash of burst-damage doesn't?

Don't see the discrepancy.

Overwhelms healing factor when prolonged?!? A fork? *deep thought*......whoa!....formidable. That's not the only oddity I've read, either. In Imperium Secundus, there's a part where Guilliman either says or thinks (can't remember which) about wanting to end his days as a gardener on some backwater planet somewhere. I'm not kidding around, it does say that at some point in the story.

Another thing I noticed about that book is that whenever Abnett writes the word 'Ultramarine', it's almost always in the plural sense, even when mentioning a lone Marine. Weird.

Was it actually a fork, or are you using hyperbole?

Couple of points, but I'll preface this with the statement that Vulkan Lives is quite a terrible novel and the details of it really aren't important in the same way Battle for the Abyss's details aren't important, only where characters and events happen to end up because of them is what's important.

First, yes it was a fork. Of course by this time Vulkan had already been killed dozens and dozens of times by Curze, in a multitude of different ways and by Curze's own statement, "He wasn't looking too formidable." The stabbing was done out of shear frustration on Curze's part, in the same way someone might punch a hole through a wall when frustrated beyond their limits. He so desperately wants to kill Vulkan and is denied it over and over again.

Second, It was Vulkan who had wished to be a farmer, which is actually quite fitting for one who is commonly referred to as one of the most humane and constructive primarchs.

Third, I don't know what you're talking about here. When there is a single marine, he is referred to as, "The Ultramarine." When there are many, they are referred to as "The Ultramarines." What is the problem?

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Was it actually a fork, or are you using hyperbole?

Vulkan Lives, page 219 -- "Shadow-fast, Curze snapped the fork off one of the dead human's wrists and rammed it deep into my chest."

Yep, definitely a fork.

The fact that the thing didn't simply snap (Vulkan was described as having REALLY hard skin in Nocturne fluff, IIRC) means it must have been one hell of a fork.

Or his skin was already sloughing off his body from the previous days of torture.

Eeeew.

Though I'd think Primarch organs are also rather hardy and tough. Maybe his organs were also sloughing off or something.

Mortarion was wearing armour, which probably helps against cannon shells. And forks.

jareddm wrote:
Couple of points, but I'll preface this with the statement that Vulkan Lives is quite a terrible novel and the details of it really aren't important in the same way Battle for the Abyss's details aren't important, only where characters and events happen to end up because of them is what's important.

Third, I don't know what you're talking about here. When there is a single marine, he is referred to as, "The Ultramarine." When there are many, they are referred to as "The Ultramarines." What is the problem?

I can't argue with your opinion about Vulkan Lives. The part I looked forward to the most was Isstvan V, which was a bit of a let down for me. As to the plural/singular mix-up I mentioned being in Imperium Secundus, it seems I am....mistaken The typo does appear in multiple places otherwise I wouldn't have given it a second thought. Not that I'm knocking Abnett's work, you understand! If not for him, McNeill and Demsbki-Bowden the HH series wouldn't have sold 100,000 copies, never mind a million+.

It was by a Primarch though, there was some clout behind the fork.

If it had been a spork not even Vulkan would have recovered.

I remember consistently reading a quote from the Cabal in that novel that says "only a Primarch can kill another Primarch." Which makes sense when you consider that all of the confirmed Primarch kills were by another Primarch. And by "confirmed" I mean, 100%, inrefrutable.

Ferrus Manus- decapitated by Fulgrim
Roboute Guilliman- throat slashed by Fulgrim
Sanguinius- slain by Horus
Horus- destroyed by the Emperor (who is a Primarch in a sense)

Alpharius was rumoured to have been slain by Guilliman too but unconfirmed.

 Deadshot wrote:
I remember consistently reading a quote from the Cabal in that novel that says "only a Primarch can kill another Primarch." Which makes sense when you consider that all of the confirmed Primarch kills were by another Primarch. And by "confirmed" I mean, 100%, inrefrutable..

Unless they change it when they get that far, Night Haunter is killed by an Imperial Assassin.

Typical BL terribleness?

 insaniak wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
I remember consistently reading a quote from the Cabal in that novel that says "only a Primarch can kill another Primarch." Which makes sense when you consider that all of the confirmed Primarch kills were by another Primarch. And by "confirmed" I mean, 100%, inrefrutable..

Unless they change it when they get that far, Night Haunter is killed by an Imperial Assassin.

I don't think they will change that, well, I hope they won't.

ADB revisited that in his NL trilogy.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
I remember consistently reading a quote from the Cabal in that novel that says "only a Primarch can kill another Primarch." Which makes sense when you consider that all of the confirmed Primarch kills were by another Primarch. And by "confirmed" I mean, 100%, inrefrutable..

Unless they change it when they get that far, Night Haunter is killed by an Imperial Assassin.

I don't think they will change that, well, I hope they won't.

ADB revisited that in his NL trilogy.

Forgot that, but I would argue that that kill is not "confirmed" as I have laid out. The video cut off at the moment of killing so you never actually see the killing blow. Weak argument it may be.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
I remember consistently reading a quote from the Cabal in that novel that says "only a Primarch can kill another Primarch." Which makes sense when you consider that all of the confirmed Primarch kills were by another Primarch. And by "confirmed" I mean, 100%, inrefrutable..

Unless they change it when they get that far, Night Haunter is killed by an Imperial Assassin.

I don't think they will change that, well, I hope they won't.

ADB revisited that in his NL trilogy.

Forgot that, but I would argue that that kill is not "confirmed" as I have laid out. The video cut off at the moment of killing so you never actually see the killing blow. Weak argument it may be.

Hmm well the entire Night Lords Chapter saw him die IIRC and there has never been anything to suggest that he didn't - on the other hand he also wanted to die so maybe that had something to do with it.

Doesn't M'shen take Kurze's head with her as proof?

Mr Morden wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
I remember consistently reading a quote from the Cabal in that novel that says "only a Primarch can kill another Primarch." Which makes sense when you consider that all of the confirmed Primarch kills were by another Primarch. And by "confirmed" I mean, 100%, inrefrutable..

Unless they change it when they get that far, Night Haunter is killed by an Imperial Assassin.

I don't think they will change that, well, I hope they won't.

ADB revisited that in his NL trilogy.

Forgot that, but I would argue that that kill is not "confirmed" as I have laid out. The video cut off at the moment of killing so you never actually see the killing blow. Weak argument it may be.

Hmm well the entire Night Lords Chapter saw him die IIRC and there has never been anything to suggest that he didn't - on the other hand he also wanted to die so maybe that had something to do with it.

Maybe. I'm working off memory and Lexicanum so my knowledge is shaky but from what I remember the pictfeed of the room shut down as M'shen was about to strike and no one saw the kill itself. Although another weak arguement could be made, as you said, that Curze wanted to die, so while M'shen struck the blow iy was Curze who committed (assisted) suicide.

Pilau Rice wrote:Doesn't M'shen take Kurze's head with her as proof?

Like I said I'm just working off Lexicanum so not sure. It might just be an oddity, or else it may be revisited in the HH series. Off the top of my head I can't recall any specific VIII Legion novels other than Vulkan Lives.

Of course, there remains the completely obvious answer that M'Shen is in fact Alpharius

M'Shen was killed later on, so I doubt she was Alpharius.

TiamatRoar wrote:
M'Shen was killed later on, so I doubt she was Alpharius.

It could have been an Alpha Legionaire killed and not Alpharius.

And you missed the joke.

Lord of the Night has Night Lords Commander Sahaa leading the pursuit of M'Shen uintil the Eldar interfere - IIRC its also talked about in the Night Lords Trilogy by ADB

http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/Lord-of-the-Night.html

That is pretty small discrepancy compared to the massive gaping plot wound that is the DA's betrayal. There are so many different versions of that event it is actually impossible to tell which one is right.

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
That is pretty small discrepancy compared to the massive gaping plot wound that is the DA's betrayal. There are so many different versions of that event it is actually impossible to tell which one is right.

That's the point. It's a mystery. No one knows.


In regards to the OP, Curze is..... exceptional. Mortarion is known as one of the toughest Primarch's, and in his armour is damn near indestructible. Vulkan, although tough, doesn't have that level of resilience, and has been killed extensively by this point. Primarch he may be, but there are factors that you simply can't ignore in regards to health and well-being. Curze would have no problem in killing Vulkan with a fork. He's insanely lethal, been killing longer then damn near all the Primarch's, and is mildly psychic. That may have contributed.

Isn't Dorn slated to be killed by lasguns?

No one knows what killed Dorn - or even if he does die.
He's "Lost In Action" boarding a traitor fleet and all they recover is the skeletal remains of one hand (naturally)

and yes, Vulkan is eminantly killable. In Unremembered empire he gets shot (admittedly with full magazines) from a pair of mundane shuriken pistols. This kills him.

He's also dropped from orbit. This kills him.

At Istvaan, a nuke goes of on his position. This kills him.

You may, however, notice the major problem with all this, that being whether you use a fork or a weapon of mass destruction, he doesn't stay *****ing dead.


Mortarion, by comparison, gets shot, a lot, but is - as noted - more or less uninjured and wearing the barbaran plate at the time. By comparison, Vulkan is unarmoured, exhausted, and has been repeatedly tortured beyond the point of death.

Also, the fork in question was a sharp piece of metal with another primarch's muscle behind it. It's not like he just tripped and fell on it.

 insaniak wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
I remember consistently reading a quote from the Cabal in that novel that says "only a Primarch can kill another Primarch." Which makes sense when you consider that all of the confirmed Primarch kills were by another Primarch. And by "confirmed" I mean, 100%, inrefrutable..

Unless they change it when they get that far, Night Haunter is killed by an Imperial Assassin.

A bit old, but you could say it was a Primarch killing a Primarch. Purse effectively suicides by letting the assassin kill him. Presumably he would have won if he resisted.

And as to the above, I'm sure they make Primarch-proof silverware out of adamantium so they don't accidentally bite through wimpy steel with their superhuman teeth.

There are many inconsistencies in 40k. Sometimes a single boltshell will destroy a SM. Other times they can take hundreds of them.
Guess it's kind of like that on the game board as well depending on how the dice gods feel like treating you that day.