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So there are a lot of armies of elves around and i might be able to handle them with other wizards like warlock with warp lightning spam and rares with 2 doomwheels and one abomination. That said i'm actually starting to think about the vermin lord and giving him possibly spells of plague. The reason for this is he's mobile and somewhat durable. Sure he can get sniped against some opponents but with movement 8 he would march 16" in any direction and cast spells. This could be alright vs elf avoidance armies not to mention t5, 5 wounds and a 5+ ward save should help out quite a bit against dinky str 3 bows. The only real problem here comes from poisoned shots. Also if you spam out large units chances are they'll try taking out the doomwheels and abomination first.

So don't get me wrong it isn't great but it might even be able to do some damage against the magical fast cavalry. That said if you take the vermin lord you may need storm banner.

I'm probably making a really weird list if i take him though seeing as he can't be the general and you probably wouldn't want him to be. Anyway it's just a thought as plague spells would give him plague, cloud of corruption, wither, bless with filth, vermintide (could be nice if you get in an opponent's flank and throw it through several units of wood elves ) and pestilent breath as some possibilities and only a couple of those wouldn't be too useful against elves.

I'm not sure taking a vermin Lord against elves is a good idea.

Elves have a lot of shooting, especially bolt throwers. Vermin Lords are quite poor when it comes to defense, plus it cannot join units. If a unit of combat elves, such as wild riders, get into contact with him they will break him in two.

Vermin lord can be useful. Pricey but you can make it work.
Certain things to remember. Unless you are hitting a small unit ,never go in alone. He is fast enough and strong enough to work as a hammer. Also quite easy to control who he fights against.
Get him on a flank. He will be striking first and that flank charge will only put him against 3 models. Hitting on 3's wounding on 2's with 5 attacks plus thunderstomp is not bad.
Hopefully you don't play like too many with barren tables or only hills in the corner then he will have things to hide behind as well.

Short answer. Yes.

Dinky S3 bows arent your issue, and poison isn't a massive concern either. Bolt throwers are.

Skitter-leaping a plague priest into an opponents flank would be more cost effective for what your proposing that a Vermin Lord.

my answer: Yes you are crazy

Vermin Lords range from "utter garbage" to "really bad" depending on what you face
Elves are in the VL="utter garbage" category
Your VL will get killed by: Bolt throwers, RnF Elves (even spearmen will put the hurt on him), strong magic missiles, Frost Phoenix, poisoned shots
And let's not even get started about shadow / death magic ...

I've used him in a triumph and treachery game. He did okay but he will never do enough to earn his points back. I mean that's not always what it's about but it is tough to justify 500 points.

He didn't die and did cause some damage but I'm not sure if I would take him again.
Take him in a game and just try it out. I'd rather take an exalted vermin lord and using his forge world rules....750 points but lore master of ruin and plague and has the thirteenth. Check out his rules lol

First time I used the Vermin Lord was against old OnG. A night goblin unit with the spider banner put him down in a single round of fire. Complete waste of 500 points.

Used him again in a much higher point game (it was 1v2, with me being the 1). He managed to survive a trebuchet to the face and flank charge a unit of ogre bulls tied up with slaves. It did not end well for the ogres...

I ran him for about a year when the book came out and a couple times in 8th.

My experience is that he's very fragile for his cost and abilities, but if he gets there, he makes an impact, especially against Monstrous Infantry.

Sadly, despite him being one of my favorite models GW has ever produced and many fond memories of him Skitterleap killing other Greater Daemons and entire units in 5th ed(he was a beast in 5th and easily the best of the 5 Greaters, being pretty much a combination of their best attributes in one model), I've found he's not worth 500 points in 8th, especially since we can take a Warlord and Grey Seer together for the same amount or less now. He really needs a lower points cost and/or a 4+ Ward.

Go big or go home. Use the exalted vermin lord. He is worth the 775 points. Im pretty positive he can smack nagash around in combat and is a lvl 4 wizard who has LOREMASTER of both plauge and ruin

WS8 S7 T7 W7 I9 A7, ASF, 5+ Ward, D6 wounds...that's 5.2 hits, 2.6 wounds, 1.3 after Ward, 4.6 after Multiple Wounds.

Nagash swings back, 3.5 hits, 2.3 wounds, 1.5 after Ward, 3 after Multiple Wounds.

Still gonna' have to go with Nagash on that one; with his ability to heal himself and/or chances of HKB, I'd wager he's going to win the grind.

Still. The Exalted version is just amazing. If only they could tone him down and make him usable in smaller games. As in, give the regular one ASF.

Warpsolution wrote:
WS8 S7 T7 W7 I9 A7, ASF, 5+ Ward, D6 wounds...that's 5.2 hits, 2.6 wounds, 1.3 after Ward, 4.6 after Multiple Wounds.

Nagash swings back, 3.5 hits, 2.3 wounds, 1.5 after Ward, 3 after Multiple Wounds.

Still gonna' have to go with Nagash on that one; with his ability to heal himself and/or chances of HKB, I'd wager he's going to win the grind.

Still. The Exalted version is just amazing. If only they could tone him down and make him usable in smaller games. As in, give the regular one ASF.

Why tone him down? Unleash him. Also I think his weapon adds str as well as the d6 wounds but i could be thinking of something else. I could have sworn he was wounding on 3's or better

Nope. Just S7, according to the rules I've got here. Nagash is...tough.

What I meant by "tone him down" is "make the regular one more like this guy".

Warpsolution wrote:
WS8 S7 T7 W7 I9 A7, ASF, 5+ Ward, D6 wounds...that's 5.2 hits, 2.6 wounds, 1.3 after Ward, 4.6 after Multiple Wounds.

Nagash swings back, 3.5 hits, 2.3 wounds, 1.5 after Ward, 3 after Multiple Wounds.

He hits Nagash on 3's with re-rolls. It's 5.44 wounds.
If he gets off a wither or bless with filth, it's better.
Filth: boosts expected wounds to 7.25
Wither: lets him wound on 3's, boosting expected wounds to 7.25
If you get both, you're looking at 8.46.
If you get a charge off, Nagash is looking at some combat res trouble as well.
Nagash can heal, but isn't likely to heal enough in time. He's getting back a single wound per casting at best. He's going to go from wounded to dead in the 2nd round, before he can get a 2nd magic phase to heal himself with.

As for normal games, a storm banner goes a long ways, as does cracks call (war machines auto-fail initiative tests).
I ran him a few times, and he did alright. If you're going up against an army that is very good at taking out wizards in bunkers, the VL is better than the seer + warlord.

Running into the backfield and unloading clouds of corruption and plagues is awesome.

Well, if your looking for a decent caster, whats wrong with the standard grey seer for plague spells? cheaper and more versatile then the vermin lord, plus you can put him in a unit. Don't get me wrong, I love using my vermin lord, but he is very situational, not to mention expensive.

 Brennonjw wrote:
Well, if your looking for a decent caster, whats wrong with the standard grey seer for plague spells? cheaper and more versatile then the vermin lord, plus you can put him in a unit. Don't get me wrong, I love using my vermin lord, but he is very situational, not to mention expensive.

The advantage the Vermin Lord has over the seer is mobility.
It's not hard to skirt a 50mm base into the back-field, stay out of arc, and poop out plagues and coulds of corruption.
It's much harder to get a seer in position to do the same, and keep him safe in that spot all game.

With the BRB getting updated today, 50% lords and 50% heroes is now a rule for all games of warhammer. That makes it a lot easier to squeeze in a vermin lord and the other choices you want.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:
WS8 S7 T7 W7 I9 A7, ASF, 5+ Ward, D6 wounds...that's 5.2 hits, 2.6 wounds, 1.3 after Ward, 4.6 after Multiple Wounds.

Nagash swings back, 3.5 hits, 2.3 wounds, 1.5 after Ward, 3 after Multiple Wounds.

He hits Nagash on 3's with re-rolls. It's 5.44 wounds.
If he gets off a wither or bless with filth, it's better.
Filth: boosts expected wounds to 7.25
Wither: lets him wound on 3's, boosting expected wounds to 7.25
If you get both, you're looking at 8.46.
If you get a charge off, Nagash is looking at some combat res trouble as well.
Nagash can heal, but isn't likely to heal enough in time. He's getting back a single wound per casting at best. He's going to go from wounded to dead in the 2nd round, before he can get a 2nd magic phase to heal himself with.

As for normal games, a storm banner goes a long ways, as does cracks call (war machines auto-fail initiative tests).
I ran him a few times, and he did alright. If you're going up against an army that is very good at taking out wizards in bunkers, the VL is better than the seer + warlord.

Running into the backfield and unloading clouds of corruption and plagues is awesome.

You can't poison a magic weapon and last i remember his weapon was magical and special.

Also 'cracks call' has a weird deal on chariots and war machines. I think it kills them unless the opponent rolls a 5+ to live. It's rather weird.

-----------

I am rather curious about storm banner with vermin lord though as it might be good. The important thing is he's fast and can be in the opponent's face very quickly (not to mention the opponent can't shoot me if i tie the vermin lord up in combat should i choose to). It's more about all these elf avoidance armies that he can cast spells into or even possibly attack in combat. Being fast means i can march into an opponent's flank pretty easily esp. since he is on such a small base. Don't get me wrong cannons would own him but i think he's not as easy to take down as some say with storm banner active and you only really need a turn or two with it on. Howling warpgale could also help against some shooting armies.

So sure vermin lord isn't too powerful and yeah he can be taken down but if i have an abomination and 2 doomwheels on the field as well and some jezzails or some such then what would you go for? Chances are the rare choices are a bigger threat in your eyes.

Ya I would be taking the storm banner if I were to take him.
I think you overestimating his ability to outmaneuver.

Even if you do get a flank charge its quite possible the opponent is going to charge you with another unit.

If I were playing against someone with a vermin lord (don't have many skaven players tho in my area lol) I'd just focus on that over the rares. Only because the vermin lord is a lot of points going towards a victory.

You should just try him out in a game sometime soon and see how it goes and tell us how it goes. Its easy to speculate how it will perform but you only truly know how he works when you try him out. Storm banner would be a must in my opinion

Nagash is WS7? Hm. Thought it was an 8.

So the Exalted version is a great answer to Nagash, for sure.

As for the regular Vermin Lord, I know that he seems decent enough in combat, but a lvl4 M8 Wizard...that's all you need to focus on. Avoid enemy attention of any kind, and nuke them.

Warpsolution wrote:
Nagash is WS7? Hm. Thought it was an 8.

So the Exalted version is a great answer to Nagash, for sure.

As for the regular Vermin Lord, I know that he seems decent enough in combat, but a lvl4 M8 Wizard...that's all you need to focus on. Avoid enemy attention of any kind, and nuke them.

Go ahead and take on S3 units with limited or no stead fast (ie, skirmishers, fast cav, small shooty units).
If they aren't lined up to help for a turn, you should be out of combat and on your way long before they come in to help.


-Matt

Well, sure. But I wouldn't really call a monster versus 5 fast cavalry models or the like "tied up in combat".
I guess, ultimately, he's an opportunistic model. Capable of avoiding this or that, and taking this or that out. But being both expensive and fragile makes him high-risk, to say the least.

Here's another take. Say 2400 points.
50% lords
Do you run TWO vermin lords, 2 abominations, and storm banner?
Still have points for the warlord as general.

Over 40% of your points in 2 models just seems so odd for skaven. Over 60% in 4 models when you factor in the Aboms!

It would be extremely fun to try, not going to lie.

 streamdragon wrote:
Over 40% of your points in 2 models just seems so odd for skaven. Over 60% in 4 models when you factor in the Aboms!
It would be extremely fun to try, not going to lie.

Kind of what I was thinking. Put them clustered together, and run them at the enemy like a wedge. I think their is very little that could hold up to that hitting power.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:
Over 40% of your points in 2 models just seems so odd for skaven. Over 60% in 4 models when you factor in the Aboms!
It would be extremely fun to try, not going to lie.

Kind of what I was thinking. Put them clustered together, and run them at the enemy like a wedge. I think their is very little that could hold up to that hitting power.

Or. 2 vermin lords, 2 wheels and an abomb

You guys are thinking to small....
2 vermin lords
1 grey seer on bell
2 lvl 2 priests on furnaces
2 aboms
2 wheels
3 cannons

Oh the wonders! One of these days I'm going to try that (got everything but the 2 vermin lords and I still need a second furnace but I'll wait for a new vermin lord plastic kit!)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually you can only take 1 vermin lord per army isn't that the rule?

This is an extremely interesting conversation...it could make my painting for an upcoming tournament easier I'm going to play around with some lists, I don't mind trying this out though I do worry about it crumbling a bit. A Skaven Monster Mash list....




Automatically Appended Next Post:
2500 Points - Monster Mash

Exalted Vermin Lord
Screaming Bell

HPA
HPA
Doomwheel

Stormvermin x50 (Bellpushers)
-M B
-Stormbanner

Clanrats x20
-M B
-PWM

Clanrats x20
-M B
-PWM

Giant Rats x5

Giant Rats x5

Rat Ogres x3 (I know I know but they're painted already!)

Looks like I'm in ok shape for any mission, but I'm thinking adding shields to Clanrats would be nice. The list is nice and fast, has some shooting and will be strong in magic and combat...though not a lot of Rats at all

I own the exalted vermin Lord is there any way to use him in normal games we have to many Nagashs here

my 3k monster mash I'd like to try

Warlord
-felllblade
-maxed out brood horror

Vermin Lord

Throt

Plague monk
-lvl2
-pox rat
-scroll

Cheiftan
-bsb
-storm banner

8 ogres
4 packmasters

8 ogres
4 packmasters

20 rats
4 packmasters

Hpa spikes

Hpa spikes

Hpa spikes

This is a tactics thread. Army lists should go in the Army Lists section. I'll make a few points here, but further discussion should be done in a different thread.

@Dez: I don't see what units of 20 Clanrats are going to do. And Mortars are cool, but Weapon Teams in general aren't anything to write home about.
I'd drop all of that and take more chaff. At least two more Rat Darts, and maybe some blocks of 20 Slaves.
Then some buses of 50 Slaves and/or more Rat Ogres and Skweel.

@Titanicus: you could ask your opponents if you could bring him, or you could field him as a regular one.

I'd drop Throt and the Plague Priest. Combine the rat Ogres into one unit and add Skweel.
Fill out Core with Slaves and Stormvermin (to carry the Stormbanner; you want your BSB alive). Split the Rats into 4 units of 5. Drop the spikes on two, if not all three, of your Abominations.

Warpsolution wrote:
This is a tactics thread. Army lists should go in the Army Lists section. I'll make a few points here, but further discussion should be done in a different thread.

@Dez: I don't see what units of 20 Clanrats are going to do. And Mortars are cool, but Weapon Teams in general aren't anything to write home about.
I'd drop all of that and take more chaff. At least two more Rat Darts, and maybe some blocks of 20 Slaves.
Then some buses of 50 Slaves and/or more Rat Ogres and Skweel.

Point taken, though I put it in spirit of the context. Do you think an army based around Monsters could legitimately work for Skaven? Throwing out all the logic of having as many rats (1 per 10 points is the current formula) as possible in the list?

I didn't put in slaves because I don't have points for a BSB, so I think it's smarter to at least use a base leadership of 5 and add in a weapons team for some fire support. My local TO's tend to use Blood and Glory so I don't want to auto lose hence the banners

So in general, how would anyone build a Skaven 'Hero Hammer' army and what tactics/units would you use to make it work?

I think it could sort of work. As in, I think the Abomination is a good model, and the Vermin Lord can be decent.
But Rat Ogres bleed combat resolution and cost too much. And they're really our only other option.
...except multiple instances of Warlords on Bone-breakers with halberds. That might not be a bad route.

If you wanted as many rats as possible, you can do a lot better than 1/10pts. A 15pt general and a ton of Slaves with slings and/or spears saw me to the top of a 500pt tournament. Bringing around 200 models to the table is...funny.

Abominations love BSBs, though. The Vermin Lord is terrible at losing combat, but if he does, two shots at a 5 are better than one.
And units of 20 Slaves don't need any Leadership bonuses. Because they evaporate pretty quick anyway.

No shooting, and no Blood And Glory. That's what I say.