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The size of a chapter is only a tiny fraction of the size of a legion.

When the remaining loyalists were split into chapters, a Chapter Master was appointed for each one.

Each new Chapter Master could have been a junior commander who commanded a 1000 marines within his respective Legion. However, this would leave the senior commanders without a job.

If so, were the senior commanders moved to some other position?

Or was it the senior commanders who were appointed first, followed by some of the junior commanders? In that case, some junior commanders would have been unable to become chapter masters.

They would either have to leave the Space Marines (which is sad) or be ranked lower than those whom they once considered their equals. So what really happened?

It would make sense to use the original legion commanders as area liasons to co-ordinate the chapters, leading them to a more administrative role... of course, nobody replaced them when they died, which is why there's no oversight at all over the Astartes chapters now.

The Chapters have ten companies. I guess people were shuffled around so that the most senior became Chapter Masters and any juniors became Company Captains. And there's additional tasks to fill, commanding recruitment, recruitment world defense and space assets.

Besides, marines aren't known for living long lives. You really need a few guys ready to step up because that Captain isn't going to stay alive leading from the front, even with him being a Space Marine. Meltaguns, plasmaguns, any number of alien weapons systems could kill him in short order.

I believe the senior officers took command of successors, with any excess juniors moving into roles as company captains.

Keep in mind most legions were pretty beat up by the time they had to divide into successors. There were probably a lot of recent promotions, empty positions, and ready applicants.

Heresy did mess the legions up badly. A lot of people, ships, kit all lost. Don,t know exact numbers but some like iron hands, salamdors took big loss,s taking them out the entire campaign pretty early.

Not all the positions would have been full and units at max strengh by the end of a brutal intergaltic civil war. Some chapters would have been forged from mixed up sources and componys.

Lots of potential for junior ranks to promote and skilled sergeants to earn captaincy's of there own

Look at the Imperial Fists, unbelievably depleted by the time they were to divide themselves.

Sigismund took over a third of the IF as they became the Black Templar. These were the most zealous of the 3000 remaining IF. The newest and youngest members became the Crimson Fists. The more veteran IF members remained the IF since they exemplified the concept of being an IF and remained under Dorn until his death, when he was replaced.

SIgismund was chosen for his valor on the battle field during the battle at the palace. I don't recall the leader of the CF, but he was similarly decorated. There aren't many 2nd founding chapters, so the selection process wasn't routine.

 PhillyT wrote:
Look at the Imperial Fists, unbelievably depleted by the time they were to divide themselves.

Sigismund took over a third of the IF as they became the Black Templar. These were the most zealous of the 3000 remaining IF. The newest and youngest members became the Crimson Fists. The more veteran IF members remained the IF since they exemplified the concept of being an IF and remained under Dorn until his death, when he was replaced.

SIgismund was chosen for his valor on the battle field during the battle at the palace. I don't recall the leader of the CF, but he was similarly decorated. There aren't many 2nd founding chapters, so the selection process wasn't routine.

The wikia page says "The surviving Imperial Fists were split into four Chapters during the Second Founding. The younger warriors became the Crimson Fists, while Dorn's chosen warriors remained the Imperial Fists, and the orbital assault specialists formed the ranks of the infamous Soul Drinkers Chapter.

The fourth Imperial Fists Second Founding Successor Chapter was the Black Templars."

Even then, the wikia lists two more chapters, the Iron Knights and the Excoriators. Confusing eh?

So about 3,000-6,000 brothers left? That's like an astounding 95% casualty rate due to Phall and Terra.

Or there were other chapters that have since been destroyed and erased from the history books...

Ehm.... weren't the SD found to not actually be IF Successors?

Maximus Bitch wrote:

The wikia page says "The surviving Imperial Fists were split into four Chapters during the Second Founding. The younger warriors became the Crimson Fists, while Dorn's chosen warriors remained the Imperial Fists, and the orbital assault specialists formed the ranks of the infamous Soul Drinkers Chapter.

The fourth Imperial Fists Second Founding Successor Chapter was the Black Templars."

Even then, the wikia lists two more chapters, the Iron Knights and the Excoriators. Confusing eh?

So about 3,000-6,000 brothers left? That's like an astounding 95% casualty rate due to Phall and Terra.

Soul Drinkers aren't of IF origin. They are still of an unknown geneseed.

The Iron Knights are unknown of wich founding they are.

And the Excoriators are forgotten about because none of the other IF successors like them. But they are 2nd founding.

It's actually a numbers anomaly caused by recent fluff changes in the HH whilst the 2nd founding fluff still represents what was established by GW in Second Ed.

Even when the HH series started, they were operating on the assumption that all legions comprised of around 10-20 thousand marines. Then around the time of the Calth story arc, the authors agreed that the scope of the Heresy was now so much bigger that it made more sense for Legion numbers to be around 100,000 average. There was an author note in one of the books stating the retcon in lore.

So when old fluff said that the IF were split into three Chapters, it made perfect sense, however now it requires a bit of a leap in logic. Maybe they will manage to explain it by the end of the series, or maybe we will be left with inconsistencies?

In Void Stalker (Which has been written since the change in HH numbers), the Night Lords recall that when the Ultramarines came to drive them out of the Eastern fringe, they sent all of their successors "a hundred chapters." Which makes sense as the Ultras were at around 200,000 before the Heresy, Calth and the subsequent ruinstorm could conceivably worn them down to about half strength by the time the second founding happened.

Given they were at Terra, and they took severe losses at Phall; it would be reasonable that the IF would be down to 15,000-30,000 marines. So if the fluff was consistent, it would make more sense to have at least 15 Chapters made from the IF.

Sallies, Iron Hands and Ravens all makes sense to be one or two chapters apiece as they were mauled in the dropsite massacres. But Dark Angels, IF, Blood Angels and Scars should all realistically have had the numbers to make at least 20 or more chapters.

It isn't just a minor problem with "Oh but maybe more died at Terra and we just don't know it yet" because if the Loyalists did only have enough to make like 150 chapters from all the Legions, then there is no way they could have driven the traitors away so decisively.

I think it is just one of those situations where it is left to us to fill in the blanks as it's just an unintentional clash of fluff, which is unfortunately inevitable with such a wide spanning background that has been around for as long as it has with no central one design team being in control of it's evolution.

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
It's actually a numbers anomaly caused by recent fluff changes in the HH whilst the 2nd founding fluff still represents what was established by GW in Second Ed.

Even when the HH series started, they were operating on the assumption that all legions comprised of around 10-20 thousand marines. Then around the time of the Calth story arc, the authors agreed that the scope of the Heresy was now so much bigger that it made more sense for Legion numbers to be around 100,000 average. There was an author note in one of the books stating the retcon in lore.

So when old fluff said that the IF were split into three Chapters, it made perfect sense, however now it requires a bit of a leap in logic. Maybe they will manage to explain it by the end of the series, or maybe we will be left with inconsistencies?

In Void Stalker (Which has been written since the change in HH numbers), the Night Lords recall that when the Ultramarines came to drive them out of the Eastern fringe, they sent all of their successors "a hundred chapters." Which makes sense as the Ultras were at around 200,000 before the Heresy, Calth and the subsequent ruinstorm could conceivably worn them down to about half strength by the time the second founding happened.

Given they were at Terra, and they took severe losses at Phall; it would be reasonable that the IF would be down to 15,000-30,000 marines. So if the fluff was consistent, it would make more sense to have at least 15 Chapters made from the IF.

Sallies, Iron Hands and Ravens all makes sense to be one or two chapters apiece as they were mauled in the dropsite massacres. But Dark Angels, IF, Blood Angels and Scars should all realistically have had the numbers to make at least 20 or more chapters.

It isn't just a minor problem with "Oh but maybe more died at Terra and we just don't know it yet" because if the Loyalists did only have enough to make like 150 chapters from all the Legions, then there is no way they could have driven the traitors away so decisively.

I think it is just one of those situations where it is left to us to fill in the blanks as it's just an unintentional clash of fluff, which is unfortunately inevitable with such a wide spanning background that has been around for as long as it has with no central one design team being in control of it's evolution.

true dat.

100,000 is still a pitiably small number. They shoulda jacked it up to something like 100 million per legion. Now that's a galaxy conquering force.

Maximus Bitch wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
Look at the Imperial Fists, unbelievably depleted by the time they were to divide themselves.

Sigismund took over a third of the IF as they became the Black Templar. These were the most zealous of the 3000 remaining IF. The newest and youngest members became the Crimson Fists. The more veteran IF members remained the IF since they exemplified the concept of being an IF and remained under Dorn until his death, when he was replaced.

SIgismund was chosen for his valor on the battle field during the battle at the palace. I don't recall the leader of the CF, but he was similarly decorated. There aren't many 2nd founding chapters, so the selection process wasn't routine.

The wikia page says "The surviving Imperial Fists were split into four Chapters during the Second Founding. The younger warriors became the Crimson Fists, while Dorn's chosen warriors remained the Imperial Fists, and the orbital assault specialists formed the ranks of the infamous Soul Drinkers Chapter.

The fourth Imperial Fists Second Founding Successor Chapter was the Black Templars."

Even then, the wikia lists two more chapters, the Iron Knights and the Excoriators. Confusing eh?

So about 3,000-6,000 brothers left? That's like an astounding 95% casualty rate due to Phall and Terra.

What I posted was my best recollection of the Black Templar 4th edition fluff! Not sure if they retconned it or not.

Psienesis wrote:Ehm.... weren't the SD found to not actually be IF Successors?

The other Soul Drinkers, the ones who were at the Second Siege of Terra, not the traitor ones.

 Psienesis wrote:
Ehm.... weren't the SD found to not actually be IF Successors?

That was the Adeptus Mechanicus' finding after analyzing their gene seed. However, despite that, the Spear of Dorn relic, which is supposed to only work for Dorn's sons, worked in the end for the Soul Drinkers, IIRC. So either the AM was wrong or the Spear was.

(maybe the narrative moral of the story was that no matter what their actual genetic legacy was, the SD were "true sons of Dorn in spirit")

I would posit that one possible explanation is that the SoulDrinkers were, in fact, previously IF (pre-Heresy) but, given the brouhaha of the debacle, the AdMech decided to save everyone involved some face and, basically, lied.

Maximus Bitch wrote:

Or was it the senior commanders who were appointed first, followed by some of the junior commanders? In that case, some junior commanders would have been unable to become chapter masters.

They would either have to leave the Space Marines (which is sad) or be ranked lower than those whom they once considered their equals. So what really happened?

I think this is remarkable. Some of the legions definitely had to promote from lower ranks to command all the new chapters, that's fine.

Say you are in the army, or just on a soccer team. The old captain leaves, and somebody who is not you is promoted to captain. Now you kill yourself?

What do you think happens when the chapter master dies in any chapter?

What about when a captain needs to be replaced, do all the other captains get mad because a sergeant is promoted out of their command? Will they only accept the new captain into the captain club if he was born a captain, just like they were?

I don't recall but I think a chapter master is selected by the chaplains maybe?

Captains are promoted from the veteran sergeants.

 PhillyT wrote:
I don't recall but I think a chapter master is selected by the chaplains maybe?

Captains are promoted from the veteran sergeants.

The Blood Magpies had a librarian as Chapter Master.

The Mantis Warriors' Acting Chapter Master is also a Librarian, Arhazra Redth.

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:


Sallies, Iron Hands and Ravens all makes sense to be one or two chapters apiece as they were mauled in the dropsite massacres. But Dark Angels, IF, Blood Angels and Scars should all realistically have had the numbers to make at least 20 or more chapters.

Dark Angel had an internal revolution, Blood angels fought demons and on earth, Only the white scars had (as of now) no significant losses although they had also internal strive (see the Scars book).

So after the heresy i think that most loyal chapters where at least below half strength IMHO.

pelicaniforce wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:

Or was it the senior commanders who were appointed first, followed by some of the junior commanders? In that case, some junior commanders would have been unable to become chapter masters.

They would either have to leave the Space Marines (which is sad) or be ranked lower than those whom they once considered their equals. So what really happened?

I think this is remarkable. Some of the legions definitely had to promote from lower ranks to command all the new chapters, that's fine.

Say you are in the army, or just on a soccer team. The old captain leaves, and somebody who is not you is promoted to captain. Now you kill yourself?

What do you think happens when the chapter master dies in any chapter?

What about when a captain needs to be replaced, do all the other captains get mad because a sergeant is promoted out of their command? Will they only accept the new captain into the captain club if he was born a captain, just like they were?

It's more than just an old captain leaving. Some senior commanders would now be relegated to commanding a much smaller chapter, something they might consider a demotion. They might also squeeze the junior commanders, causing some resentment among some junior commanders who are forced to relinquish their position of chapter master.

So I'm wondering how the Guilliman Reformation was enacted without causing a lot of discontent. The best solution, IMHO, is to let the juniors take over and move the senior guys to some esteemed and comfy position.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Of course, there were guys like Sigismund, Numeon and Gage who refused to give up their shiznitz.

In the same vein as their traitorous counterparts, Kharn, Ahriman, Lucius, Typhus, Abaddon and Erebus

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
I don't recall but I think a chapter master is selected by the chaplains maybe?

Captains are promoted from the veteran sergeants.

The Blood Magpies had a librarian as Chapter Master.

Nothing saying they couldn't be. Several chapters have librarians as chapter masters in the fluff.

Maximus Bitch wrote:
It's more than just an old captain leaving. Some senior commanders would now be relegated to commanding a much smaller chapter, something they might consider a demotion. They might also squeeze the junior commanders, causing some resentment among some junior commanders who are forced to relinquish their position of chapter master.

So I'm wondering how the Guilliman Reformation was enacted without causing a lot of discontent. The best solution, IMHO, is to let the juniors take over and move the senior guys to some esteemed and comfy position.

But everybody in their position got demoted, including the Primarchs. That was the whole point - to prevent any single person from commanding so many marines at any time. And while the senior commanders who were made Chapter Masters were now argually in command of less marines, they also at the same time got promoted to be the ultimate authority in their chapter, effectively equals to Primarchs. I doubt a whole lot of people in their positions considered that a demotion.

As for the company captains who might have gotten demoted to make room for their superior commanders, there might have been some discontent there. But it's not like the demotion is unreasonable - it's just the effect of restructuring the organization. I'm sure they were disciplined and loyal enough to understand and do their duty regardless.

 PhillyT wrote:
I don't recall but I think a chapter master is selected by the chaplains maybe?

Captains are promoted from the veteran sergeants.

From what I've seen it really seems to be reviewed on an individual basis for captaincy. There are certainly cases of veteran sergeants becoming the captain of a company, but there are also plenty of cases in the BL novels of sergeants from within that company becoming the new captain. As for chapter masters I think each chapter probably does it their own way, but you're probably right for most cases.

Maximus Bitch wrote:

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
It's actually a numbers anomaly caused by recent fluff changes in the HH whilst the 2nd founding fluff still represents what was established by GW in Second Ed.

Even when the HH series started, they were operating on the assumption that all legions comprised of around 10-20 thousand marines. Then around the time of the Calth story arc, the authors agreed that the scope of the Heresy was now so much bigger that it made more sense for Legion numbers to be around 100,000 average. There was an author note in one of the books stating the retcon in lore.

So when old fluff said that the IF were split into three Chapters, it made perfect sense, however now it requires a bit of a leap in logic. Maybe they will manage to explain it by the end of the series, or maybe we will be left with inconsistencies?

In Void Stalker (Which has been written since the change in HH numbers), the Night Lords recall that when the Ultramarines came to drive them out of the Eastern fringe, they sent all of their successors "a hundred chapters." Which makes sense as the Ultras were at around 200,000 before the Heresy, Calth and the subsequent ruinstorm could conceivably worn them down to about half strength by the time the second founding happened.

Given they were at Terra, and they took severe losses at Phall; it would be reasonable that the IF would be down to 15,000-30,000 marines. So if the fluff was consistent, it would make more sense to have at least 15 Chapters made from the IF.

Sallies, Iron Hands and Ravens all makes sense to be one or two chapters apiece as they were mauled in the dropsite massacres. But Dark Angels, IF, Blood Angels and Scars should all realistically have had the numbers to make at least 20 or more chapters.

It isn't just a minor problem with "Oh but maybe more died at Terra and we just don't know it yet" because if the Loyalists did only have enough to make like 150 chapters from all the Legions, then there is no way they could have driven the traitors away so decisively.

I think it is just one of those situations where it is left to us to fill in the blanks as it's just an unintentional clash of fluff, which is unfortunately inevitable with such a wide spanning background that has been around for as long as it has with no central one design team being in control of it's evolution.

true dat.

100,000 is still a pitiably small number. They shoulda jacked it up to something like 100 million per legion. Now that's a galaxy conquering force.

Well don't forget:
1. The original legion worked in tandem with Imperial Army units at the time-obiviously the amount of involvement with non-marines depended on the legion.
2. There were also plenty (if not the majority) of crusading armies that didn't include any marines, and were all combined arms forces including Navy forces.

I could see original legions attacking systems much like the WWII island hopping campaigns. Some islands (planets) would fall to the marines. Some would be initially invaded by marines and then replaced by imperial army units as the fighting continued. Others would be all non-marine shows.

I look at it all like my high schools.
My first year, I was in a huge massively over-crowded school. The number of students allowed us better selection for our sports teams, and we crushed other schools in are area.
My 2nd year, a brand-new school opened up (much closer to home), and I had the option to go to the new school.

My choices were stay in the large dreadnought of a school and try and find a small place of my own in the hall of trophies, or go to the brand new school and build the hall of trophies.

I chose the new smaller school, setting several records (some still hold today, 25 years later). Had I stayed in the larger school, I would not have had the same time on the field; I would not have had the chance to perform at the level I did, and I would not have been noticed by the scouts that in the end, got me the scholarships that paid for my college.

I don't think many marine leaders given the chance to blaze their own trail and establish their own legacy would turn down the chance. Or maybe, culturally it is an American thing. Not having several hundreds of years of tradition we're more likely to do our own thing.

 Orblivion wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
I don't recall but I think a chapter master is selected by the chaplains maybe?

Captains are promoted from the veteran sergeants.

From what I've seen it really seems to be reviewed on an individual basis for captaincy. There are certainly cases of veteran sergeants becoming the captain of a company, but there are also plenty of cases in the BL novels of sergeants from within that company becoming the new captain. As for chapter masters I think each chapter probably does it their own way, but you're probably right for most cases.

I believe that veteran sergeants served within their companies in addition to sometimes being moved to the first. They are not always called veterans. Sometimes they are just listed as sergeants and at others Lieutenants.

tgjensen wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:
It's more than just an old captain leaving. Some senior commanders would now be relegated to commanding a much smaller chapter, something they might consider a demotion. They might also squeeze the junior commanders, causing some resentment among some junior commanders who are forced to relinquish their position of chapter master.

So I'm wondering how the Guilliman Reformation was enacted without causing a lot of discontent. The best solution, IMHO, is to let the juniors take over and move the senior guys to some esteemed and comfy position.

But everybody in their position got demoted, including the Primarchs. That was the whole point - to prevent any single person from commanding so many marines at any time. And while the senior commanders who were made Chapter Masters were now argually in command of less marines, they also at the same time got promoted to be the ultimate authority in their chapter, effectively equals to Primarchs. I doubt a whole lot of people in their positions considered that a demotion.

As for the company captains who might have gotten demoted to make room for their superior commanders, there might have been some discontent there. But it's not like the demotion is unreasonable - it's just the effect of restructuring the organization. I'm sure they were disciplined and loyal enough to understand and do their duty regardless.

While it might have been a demotion, consider that a Chapter master has a lot more freedom than anyone in a legion save the primarch. They answer to the high lords of terra rather than some other part of their legion.

Similarly you have to realize that the legions were torn up by war. Lots of marines died and immediately afterwards the legions went into overdrive to replace their numbers creating to get back up to strength. So at the second founding you had the second highest percentage of green, unbattle tested marines ever present in the AA(since the first founding). So while there would have been a lot of war hardened veterans around to become Chapter masters/company comanders and vet sergeants they would also have been taxed training the green new marines.