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hey everyone, so i've looked through a number of posts and just done general searches on a this topic, and it either hasn't been very clear or I just find conflicting info. I just want to make sure.

First, is an army able to ally with itself or with with its supplement? On the new allies chart, I see armies are battle brothers with themselves, but on page 122 of the rules, i see under allied detachment "all units chosen must have a different faction to any of the units in your primary detachment (or not faction)". Maybe I'm just interpreting this wrong, or is it just reiterating that units can't belong to more than one faction?

Second, in the case for supplements, since they are part of the same faction, can you units from the main codex and units from the supplements in the same primary detachment. Example Can I have a black mace prince in my first HQ slot, and a crimson slaughter lord with the slaughter's horns in the 2nd HQ slot? I know for sure you can't mix and match relics.

Any clarification is much appreciated, thanks in advance.

You have fallen for the most successful trap in 7th edition:
Assuming the Allied Detachment has anything to do with Allies....

In 7th edition we have permission to select any number and type of detachment as we desire, making it possible to have a Marine Combined Arms Detachment and a Tau Combined Arms Detachment. This also includes the ability to have two Combined Arm Detachments of the same faction, or any number of specialized Detachment and a Combined Arms Detachment from the same Faction. The Matrix only exists to inform us of how the two Factions interact with each other on the battlefield, for example the One Eyed Open Rule triggers for both Units whenever they are within X inches of each other. I even put forth that interactions between Units in the same Detachment still follow the Allied Matrix, we only have no way to make a Detachment with multiple factions so it is a moot point as the level of alliance will always be Battle Brother.

As for Supplements:
While it is true that Supplements are the same faction as the mother codex, so they can be included together in a single Detachment, that is not the end of it. Each Supplement has a line along the lines of 'Detachments chosen for this supplement may X' or '(name of Unit here) selected for a (name of supplement here) Detachment may X.' This means all the good Rules for being part of the Supplement are only avaliable if the entire Detachment is from that supplement, and for 7th Edition supplements those Detachments also have to be the specific ones in the book itself. This means it is possible to have a Crimson Slaughter Lord in a Vanilla Codex Detachment, but that Lord must select their artefacts from the vanilla Codex as if they where also a vanilla Lord.

Tbh, your post about detachments has just confused me more. I understand what your saying for supplements though.

I get that you can take multiple detachments, I just want to know if you can ally with yourself and if you can, why does the allied detachment on page 122 say that "all units chosen must have a different faction to any of the units in your primary detachment (or not faction)" and what is it referring to.

 akwing00 wrote:
I get that you can take multiple detachments, I just want to know if you can ally with yourself and if you can, why does the allied detachment on page 122 say that "all units chosen must have a different faction to any of the units in your primary detachment (or not faction)" and what is it referring to.

Because the rules your quoting only applies to the Allied Detachment. It doesn't apply to another Combined Arms Detachment (or any other type of Detachment or Formation) taken from the same Faction as your Primary Detachment which is literally allying with yourself without using the Allied Detachment..

 Ghaz wrote:

 akwing00 wrote:
I get that you can take multiple detachments, I just want to know if you can ally with yourself and if you can, why does the allied detachment on page 122 say that "all units chosen must have a different faction to any of the units in your primary detachment (or not faction)" and what is it referring to.

Because the rules your quoting only applies to the Allied Detachment. It doesn't apply to another Combined Arms Detachment (or any other type of Detachment or Formation) taken from the same Faction as your Primary Detachment which is literally allying with yourself without using the Allied Detachment..

true but that requires two troops minimum as opposed to the one troop choice from an allied detachment, which is kinda why im asking. Also wondering because if you can't ally with the same faction that means in the case of CSM you can't ally with crimson slaughter or the black legion supplements cause they are a part of the CSM faction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ok so I understand how it works now. If I want 2 detachments, one from the main dex the other from the supplement both have to be Combined arms detachments. I was confused because events like BAO and LVO were allowing you to ally with the same faction, I guess they are doing this to balance these events.

Indeed,
Tournament organizers have made changes to the way Detachments work for balance purposes.

Just Remember:
You have permission to take any number and type of Detachment
Detachment Restrictions are contained to just that Detachment

JinxDragon wrote:
Indeed,
Tournament organizers have made changes to the way Detachments work for balance purposes.

Just Remember:
You have permission to take any number and type of Detachment
Detachment Restrictions are contained to just that Detachment

great and thanks, I think you also answered my next question. I was wondering if you could take a combined arms detachment and a codex specific detachment since they were from the same faction (example Space wolves) but yeah that falls under "You have permission to take any number and type of Detachment"

What you want is this:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/619382.page#7286336

It really is a good picture, we should just sticky it to the front page....

Another example of a perfectly legal army is a Firebase Support Cadre Primary, a CAD of Eldar and an AD of Eldar. So you can have a CAD and AD of the same faction as long as the CAD is not your primary detachment (as theAD can't have same faction as primary detachment).

Just remember to purchase the 'character upgrade' for one of the broadside models.
Lot easier then trying to have a Combined Arm Detachment and Allied Detachment which contain zero characters.

Yes obviously

 Vector Strike wrote:
What you want is this:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/619382.page#7286336

I will even agree with Jinx, in that it is a nice picture.

But ( and is it ever a big one ), I am in all honesty, I feel like I am still confused ( not really all that hard for me given the pain meds I'm on ) .....

This is probably in part because I have mostly played basic FOC Necrons without any Allies ( don't need any complications for anything but Battle Brothers ), and am trying to visualize a CAD in terms that I already understand.

CAD - Primary, from a specific codex or supplement requires a Min of 1 HQ ( Warlord ) and 2 Troops, can include 4 additional Troops, 3 ea. of Elites, FA, HS, a Fort and a Lord of War?

Detachment - a group of units from the FOC of a given codex or supplement, Min of 1 HQ and 1 Troop, but can take up to 1 additional Troop, Elite, FA and/or HS?

Formation - a specific type of detachment, from a codex or supplement?

Faction - race/army ( i.e. necron or tau ) specific, actions on the table based on alliance table?

Unbound - anything goes, within point limit?

Battleforged - specifically based on FOC presented for Detachments and Formations .... generally give bonuses for staying in Battleforged?


Am I understanding these correctly?

 Chopper Greg wrote:
CAD - Primary, from a specific codex or supplement requires a Min of 1 HQ ( Warlord ) and 2 Troops, can include 4 additional Troops, 3 ea. of Elites, FA, HS, a Fort and a Lord of War?

Not quite. The Combined Arms Detachment is just one example of a detachment. There are various types of detachments such as the Allied Detachment in the main rulebook, the Realspace Raiders Detachment from Codex Dark Eldar, the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment from Codex Grey Knights, etc. Each has different unit requirements and command benefits.

Also your primary detachment is determined by what detachment your Warlord comes from. He doesn't have to come from a Combined Arms Detachment and can even come from a Formation.

Understandable confusion though...
I've commented in the past about how stupid it is to have something called a 'Primary Detachment,' when the Game breaks if we apply Detachment related Rules to it. This is because the Primary Detachment is not a Detachment per say, but a title that is granted to whatever Detachment contains the Armies Warlord. The only reason we are required to grant this title to some other Detachment is due to a set of Rules designed to interact directly with just the Primary Detachment, so we need to have one.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Chopper Greg wrote:
CAD - Primary, from a specific codex or supplement requires a Min of 1 HQ ( Warlord ) and 2 Troops, can include 4 additional Troops, 3 ea. of Elites, FA, HS, a Fort and a Lord of War?

Not quite. The Combined Arms Detachment is just one example of a detachment. There are various types of detachments such as the Allied Detachment in the main rulebook, the Realspace Raiders Detachment from Codex Dark Eldar, the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment from Codex Grey Knights, etc. Each has different unit requirements and command benefits.

Also your primary detachment is determined by what detachment your Warlord comes from. He doesn't have to come from a Combined Arms Detachment and can even come from a Formation.

Ok, this is where my confusion really starts to take hold.

I am expanding from Necrons to Tau.

As a part of that I bought the Farsight Enclaves ( interactive edition ). In it is says ...

In addition to following the Allies Matrix for Codex: Tau Empire, Farsight Enclaves detachments and Codex: Tau Empire detachments may ally together as Battle Brothers.

Yet in the BRB, under Allied Detachments, it says...

All units chosen must have a different Faction to any units in your Primary Detachment

If factions are army specific ( i.e. Tau or Necrons ) as I outlined in my previous post, how can Tau Empire be a Allied Detachment to a Farsight Enclaves Primary Detachment ( or vise versa )?

Under the Allies Rules in 6th Ed, there is no problem, yet under Detachment Rules in 7th, I'm left scratching my head and going "Say What???".

Normally, an Allied detachment must be a different faction then your primary faction.

While not well written, I believe the intent for most supplements is that for the purposes of list-building they are treated as different factions.

Of course I have nothing to back this up.

Yes you can ally nothing in the 40k rulebook prevents that. You however cannot have an Allied Detachment of Farsight Enclaves if your Primary Detachment is Tau Empire.

To start off throw out everything you know about army building from 6th Ed. It is no longer true.

Your army is a collection of models. These models are collected into UNITS these units are collected into DETACHMENTS. You may have as many detachments as you want in your army. Each detachment can be taken from a different faction if you choose. You must nominate one detachment to be your Primary Detachment, your Warlord must be from this detachment.

One type of detachment is the CAD. You don't have to include a CAD in your army if you don't want. However you can have as many CADs as you want in your army and each can have a different faction should you choose.

Another common type of detachment is the Allied Detachment. This has nothing to do with Allies this is a common misconception due to the name. This detachment can't be your primary and must have a separate faction to your primary detachment.

All 7th Ed codexes include their own faction specific detachment. Likewise you can include any number of these and they can be your Primary Detachment. You can of course mix these with any other types of Detachment including the CAD.

Finally you have Formations. These detachments work exactly like the others above except rather than having slots you have specific units you must take. Just like the other types of detachments these can be taken as well CADs or other types of detachments. Formations can be your Primary detachments (so you could make an army purely from one or more Formations should you wish).

There are other types of detachments out there (for instance in Planetstrike) and they work just like the CAD or the Codex Specific Detachments. Remember you only get the command benefit of that detachment when selecting a detachment. For instance troops in a CAD gain ObSec, troops in a Real Space Raiders Detachment (from Codex: DE) gain a 5+ cover save on turn 1 but would not get ObSec.

I this helps.

I'm not sure, but that faint sound you heard, may have been my brain hitting the bottom of the well.

I need to think about this for a bit.

You do realize Codex Tau Empire and the Farsight Enclaves supplement are from 6th edition when you could only take on Force Org chart per 2,000 points and the only way you could take 'allies' was by using the allies slots on the chart and they couldn't be from the same codex?

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yes you can ally nothing in the 40k rulebook prevents that. You however cannot have an Allied Detachment of Farsight Enclaves if your Primary Detachment is Tau Empire.

To start off throw out everything you know about army building from 6th Ed. It is no longer true.

Your army is a collection of models. These models are collected into UNITS these units are collected into DETACHMENTS. You may have as many detachments as you want in your army. Each detachment can be taken from a different faction if you choose. You must nominate one detachment to be your Primary Detachment, your Warlord must be from this detachment.

One type of detachment is the CAD. You don't have to include a CAD in your army if you don't want. However you can have as many CADs as you want in your army and each can have a different faction should you choose.

Another common type of detachment is the Allied Detachment. This has nothing to do with Allies this is a common misconception due to the name. This detachment can't be your primary and must have a separate faction to your primary detachment.

All 7th Ed codexes include their own faction specific detachment. Likewise you can include any number of these and they can be your Primary Detachment. You can of course mix these with any other types of Detachment including the CAD.

Finally you have Formations. These detachments work exactly like the others above except rather than having slots you have specific units you must take. Just like the other types of detachments these can be taken as well CADs or other types of detachments. Formations can be your Primary detachments (so you could make an army purely from one or more Formations should you wish).

There are other types of detachments out there (for instance in Planetstrike) and they work just like the CAD or the Codex Specific Detachments. Remember you only get the command benefit of that detachment when selecting a detachment. For instance troops in a CAD gain ObSec, troops in a Real Space Raiders Detachment (from Codex: DE) gain a 5+ cover save on turn 1 but would not get ObSec.

I this helps.

This post

To illustrate a bit.

Legal list in 7th:

a. CAD Necrons (has your Warlord, so it's your Primary Detachment)
b. CAD Necrons
c. Tyrannic War Veterans (Formation)
d. Allied Detachment Farsight Enclaves

Notice that a, b, c and d are all detachments, but organized in different 'FOCs'. That list works for 500p, 1000p, 15000p, 2000p, 2500p or any other you want to use. The rules of the allied matrix table works between all detachments - you better keep those marines far away from either Tau and Necrons units!

Oher example of a legal lilst:

a. Firebase Support Cadre (has a character Broadside and you picked it as your Warlord - primary detachment!) (Formation)
b. CAD Tau Empire
c. CAD Farsight Enclaves

In 7th, you can pick your Warlord from anywhere, except from an Allied Detachment, if the model is at least a character. If you don't have a character in your army, you can pick any model, and that model's detachment will become the Primary detachment.

This, on the other hand, is illegal:

a. CAD Necrons (has your warlord, so it's your Primary Detachment)
b. Allied Detachment Necrons
c. CAD Dark Eldar
d. Tyrannic War Veterans (Formation)

Why? because you cannot have an Allied Detachment from the same Faction of your Primary Detachment.

Indeed, the best advise to take away from this forum is this:
Forget everything you knew about 6th Edition List Building.

Yeah Vector Strike gives a good run down. Here's another example try to figure out whether it is legal or not:


Oher example of a legal lilst: 

a. Firebase Support Cadre (has a character Broadside and you picked it as your Warlord - primary detachment!) (Formation) 
b. CAD Tau Empire
c. Allied Detachment Farsight Enclaves 
d. CAD Eldar
e. Allied Detachment Orks.


Is it made purely from detachments?
Does it have a Primary Detachment that contains the Warlord?
Do all the Allied Detachments have a different faction to the Primary Detachment?

If you answer yes to all above the army is legal and battleforged.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yeah Vector Strike gives a good run down. Here's another example try to figure out whether it is legal or not:


Oher example of a legal lilst: 

a. Firebase Support Cadre (has a character Broadside and you picked it as your Warlord - primary detachment!) (Formation) 
b. CAD Tau Empire
c. Allied Detachment Farsight Enclaves 
d. CAD Eldar
e. Allied Detachment Orks.


Is it made purely from detachments?
Does it have a Primary Detachment that contains the Warlord?
Do all the Allied Detachments have a different faction to the Primary Detachment?

If you answer yes to all above the army is legal and battleforged.

This list isn't actual legal at all. Farsight Enclaves uses the Faction of its parent codex. A Farsight Enclaves Allied Detachment is actually a Tau Empire Allied Detachment. You, in effect, have an Allied Detachment with the same Faction as your primary. I think a lot of people miss that Supplements count as the same Faction as their parent.

Page 126 of the small rulebook, right next to the allies chart... "In the case of codex supplements, the Faction of all the units described in that publication is the same as the codex it is a supplement of."

Page 122 of the small rulebook, in the Allied Detachment restrictions... "All units chosen must have a different Faction to any of the units in your Primary Detachment (or no Faction)."

So, you can't have a Tau Empire primary with a Farsight Enclaves Allied Detachment as it would violate the Allied Detachment restriction.

I actually see this error a lot in local games, so I'm assuming people don't realize there is no such thing as a Supplement Faction. Farsight Enclaves isn't a Faction. Black Legion isn't a Faction. Sentinels of Terra isn't a Faction. etc. etc.

Correct Kriswall but it was written to help the OP understand the thought process required to work out if it is legal or not.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Correct Kriswall but it was written to help the OP understand the thought process required to work out if it is legal or not.

Ah! My bad! I thought you were using it as an example of a legal list.

GW really, really confused the issue by using the word "allied" in Allied Detachment.

Yeah it causes so much confusion. I wish they had called it Auxiliary Detachment, it would have spared much confusion. So many people think that Allied Detachment = Allies.

I really appreciate the help.

I think that I'm starting to get my mind wrapped around the variations.

I won an iTunes gift card this morning, and picked up a copy of Astra Militarum, so my options will open up a little more once I can obtain some more models.


I tend to agree that GW opened a can of worms by using "Allied Detachment" to mean separate things. I decided last night that they probably should have used something like "Allied Force", "Allied Unit" or even "Allied Formation".

 Vector Strike wrote:

To illustrate a bit.

Legal list in 7th:

a. CAD Necrons (has your Warlord, so it's your Primary Detachment)
b. CAD Necrons
c. Tyrannic War Veterans (Formation)
d. Allied Detachment Farsight Enclaves

Notice that a, b, c and d are all detachments, but organized in different 'FOCs'. That list works for 500p, 1000p, 15000p, 2000p, 2500p or any other you want to use. The rules of the allied matrix table works between all detachments - you better keep those marines far away from either Tau and Necrons units!

Oher example of a legal lilst:

a. Firebase Support Cadre (has a character Broadside and you picked it as your Warlord - primary detachment!) (Formation)
b. CAD Tau Empire
c. CAD Farsight Enclaves

So if I want a few more troops that are like the ones in my primary detachment ( for now say Tau: FE CAD ), I could take a second Tau: FE CAD, and just use the minimum ( 1 HQ and 2 Troops )?

I just realised a copy and past fail on my part that strongly implied the list was legal I used one of Vector Strike's examples as a basis.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

So if I want a few more troops that are like the ones in my primary detachment ( for now say Tau: FE CAD ), I could take a second Tau: FECAD, and just use the minimum ( 1 HQ and 2 Troops )? 

Yes that is correct. Say you wanted 9 Hammerheads you would just take 3 Tau CADs (either Empire or Enclaves would work) so 3 HQs, 6 Troops.