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HRR vs HYMP? I know there's been math done to prove the benefits of each weapon against different AVs, but personally which do you tend to lean towards? I sort of want to run the HRRs, but I don't really see a place for them. This is also going to be ran with a Firebase Support Cadre so all broadsides will have Tankhunter. Just based on that which setup do you guys prefer if i'm going to be going against mainly Eldar w/ Wave Serpents?

I believe HYMP is considered superior in most situations.

 StateOfAnger wrote:
HRR vs HYMP? I know there's been math done to prove the benefits of each weapon against different AVs, but personally which do you tend to lean towards? I sort of want to run the HRRs, but I don't really see a place for them. This is also going to be ran with a Firebase Support Cadre so all broadsides will have Tankhunter. Just based on that which setup do you guys prefer if i'm going to be going against mainly Eldar w/ Wave Serpents?

The current belief is Missiles all the way. And I agree with that opinion.

Tank Hunter provides a much bigger buff to mid strength. high RoF weapons. So HYMP all the way.

And pretty much all the time. There are much better ways to threaten AV 14 in the Tau codex then HRR's.

Im against the norm, I say HRR. Superior range which puts them out of danger, and unlike HYMP, HRRs only need one shot to get through to seriously endanger a vehicle. Tank hunter also puts a band-aide on their normally mediocre S8.

2 cents...

One of the reasons HYMP work better is that they synergize with the Smart Missiles that every broadside comes with. Both weapon systems are medium-ranged, and medium-AP, so using them together makes sense. Broadsides who are within 30" of their targets can get four S5 smart missile shots and four S7 high yield missile shots - tons of firepower in comparison to a single S8 AP1 shot from a broadside sitting way back near his table edge.

Obviously the HRR's AP1 combined with tank hunter can make it brutal against AV10-12 vehicles (a group of three broadsides is almost guaranteed to get an immobilized or explodes result). But the missle spam is just ultimately so much more flexible, allowing the broadsides to engage anything from swarms of enemies to light vehicles. What's sad is that, even with the HRR's anti-vehicle stats, it's a less reliable weapon for AV work (since you need a chain of rolls to get the right vehicle damage results, rather than just glancing the vehicle to death like the HYMP does).

I feel like the HRR is superior if you know you're going against low to mid armor that doesn't have a save of some kind (other than cover, tau laugh at cover saves), but there's the issue. The HYMPs are decent against just about everything while the HRRs are great against just a few things. With everything focused on TAC lists, there's just no point in a unit that is highly specialized like that. You run into a bunch of MCs and you're in a bad spot etc.

Maybe better isn't the word to be using here... flexible or economical?

I usually go HRR. I got plenty of strength 7. I like the str8 ap1. It's worked good for me for killing flyers. And no matter where the flyer comes on he can't get out of my range. That's my experience anyway.

HRR, because Strength 7 isn't enough killage for some of the crap coming down the line these days, and there are better platforms for missile pods in the first place.

HYMP. Superior against nearly all targets, and long enough range to be a threat to anything they want to kill.

In terms of killing vehicles, a HYMP suit without tank hunter is better than a HRR suit with tank hunter against AV10-12 and roughly equal against AV13. HRR obviously can glance AV14, but the rate is so low that you really shouldn't bother.

My experience in game is that the HYMP have never been out of range of at least one thing they can shoot at.

With the Y'vahra, the HRR took a serious blow in the AT department. Ok, still got the range, but very few armies today aren't mobile enough to get into HYMP's 36" range. Now Tyranids entered (again) the in-your-face army list.

4 S7 is generally much better than 1 S8. Volume of fire defeats saves, FnP and AV.

I initially modeled my broadsides with the rail gun, but they were just not effective. 1 shot vs 8 shots? If you take drones, you're looking at 1 shot vs 12 shots. The unit is also very durable, so you really don't need to have them hiding out in the back field.
Maybe if the HRR was still str 10 there could be a good argument made for.

HRR is only really effective against multiple wounds T4.

Which the Riptide will generally do better thanks to a Pieplate..

 Fafnir13 wrote:
I initially modeled my broadsides with the rail gun, but they were just not effective. 1 shot vs 8 shots? If you take drones, you're looking at 1 shot vs 12 shots. The unit is also very durable, so you really don't need to have them hiding out in the back field.
Maybe if the HRR was still str 10 there could be a good argument made for.

I would say +1 str or +1 shot to HRR would make it more of a choice then a duh. The 'Tides or 2xFusion Suits can handle the heavy units far better than the HRR and the flexibility of the HYMP makes it hard for your opponents to deny their usefulness other than killing them.

 Fafnir13 wrote:
I initially modeled my broadsides with the rail gun, but they were just not effective. 1 shot vs 8 shots? If you take drones, you're looking at 1 shot vs 12 shots. The unit is also very durable, so you really don't need to have them hiding out in the back field.
Maybe if the HRR was still str 10 there could be a good argument made for.

If it was still S10, HRR FBSC would be lethal and VT HRRs would be totally worth the points. Alas GW thought it would be to much.

For me, it depends how many teams I run, but since you are running the Firebase Support Cadre, I'd probably run a team of each as follows.

1 Team all HYMP plus SMS, all with Velocity Trackers - because 12 twin linked shots with Tankhunter and selective Skyfire will ruin just about anythings day. Optional goodies of Seeker Missiles for that flyer that managed to stay out of the 36 inch death zone or trying to sneak in a pen on an AV13 target.

1 Team, all HRR plus TLPR. One of these I'll up to a Shas'vre and give him the Advanced Targeting System - because Precision shots on a 5+ with a Strength 8, AP1 weapon is a bad day for any T4 character. Wargear for the rest of the team can vary, more Advanced Targeting Systems makes this team a special character mulching machine, Early Warning Override lets you mess up deep striking terminators and the Defence System gives you a wicked overwatch punch. Again, seeker missiles are possibility here, for that great surge capacity of 6 strength 8 shots from a single unit.

After that, I'd add drones based on points.

barnowl wrote:

 Fafnir13 wrote:
I initially modeled my broadsides with the rail gun, but they were just not effective. 1 shot vs 8 shots? If you take drones, you're looking at 1 shot vs 12 shots. The unit is also very durable, so you really don't need to have them hiding out in the back field.
Maybe if the HRR was still str 10 there could be a good argument made for.

If it was still S10, HRR FBSC would be lethal and VT HRRs would be totally worth the points. Alas GW thought it would be to much.

Probably because Tau players used to fill their HS slots with HRR broadies - so, reducing it to S8, it would give the vehicles more appeal.

But, oh, they took targeting array from said vehicles away. Not so interesting again. And then... HYMP! Broadies all over again

 Fafnir13 wrote:
I initially modeled my broadsides with the rail gun, but they were just not effective. 1 shot vs 8 shots?

It's 1 shot vs 4 shots, not 8.

Besides, +1S, range and AP all matter more in-game than on paper. Finally, HRRs synergize perfectly with tl-plasma rifles and make for great deepstriking MEQ/TEQ killers.

HYMP.

Unfortuantly the HRR took a nerfbat too big, and the HYMP made too awesome.
There is nearly nothing in the game the HRR is better at than the HYMP.
2+ saves without invul/cover, and AV14 are the only cases the HRR deals more damage, and 36" is mostly enough anyway.

 BoomWolf wrote:
HYMP.

Unfortuantly the HRR took a nerfbat too big, and the HYMP made too awesome.
There is nearly nothing in the game the HRR is better at than the HYMP.
2+ saves without invul/cover, and AV14 are the only cases the HRR deals more damage, and 36" is mostly enough anyway.

HRR is also statistically better against the rare number of things with T8. And can ID T4. Mister Math tells me that it will usually perform better against for example Tyranid Warriors (or Crisis Suits or other Broadsides!) and is much much better against Meganobs.

This is still niche though I suppose.

plus the Broadside model wielding the HRR is infinitely cooler than its autistic HYMP-fist cousin

 Sir Arun wrote:
plus the Broadside model wielding the HRR is infinitely cooler than its Derpy HYMP-fist cousin

Unless you modify it some...I did my missilesides similar to this one:

 gameandwatch wrote:
Im against the norm, I say HRR. Superior range which puts them out of danger, and unlike HYMP, HRRs only need one shot to get through to seriously endanger a vehicle. Tank hunter also puts a band-aide on their normally mediocre S8.

2 cents...

Yeah, but all one shot weapons are a risk, so unless you've got some pathfinders up front to light up a Russ your Broadside cant take it out from range, and if you do, Its still Av 14, so its unlikely you'll pen.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
unlikely you'll pen.

Impossible to pen.

well the hull point removal tactic wont even work on a Leman Russ if youre fielding HYMP sides, soo...

 Lord Scythican wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
plus the Broadside model wielding the HRR is infinitely cooler than its Derpy HYMP-fist cousin

Unless you modify it some...I did my missilesides similar to this one:

nice. do you have a tutorial for that?

 Sir Arun wrote:
well the hull point removal tactic wont even work on a Leman Russ if youre fielding HYMP sides, soo...

A HRR squad of 3 does 0.375 hull points to AV14 every turn. Going up to 0.486 if you use Markerlights to boost to BS5, and up to 0.89 if you have tank hunter.

So with *everything* going your way, they still do less than 1 HP of damage per turn to AV14. 4 turns on average to kill one vehicle isn't a winning strategy. If you don't have those buffs, you don't even average killing a single AV14 vehicle the entire game!

HRR do have their uses against T4 multi-wound, but Tau also have other weapons to fill that niche. IA Riptides & Fusion suits also ID T4 models, and more efficiently than Broadsides.

Even against multi-wound T4 models, the HRR is hardly any better than the HYMP, and in case of some saves its worse.

In fact unless the armor save it gets against the HYMP is a big difference compared to the cover/invul you get from the HRR, the difference even goes lower, or might disappear.

Example, nid warriors with or without cover? HYMP wins.
Any model with invul equal or superior to armor-HYMP wins.
Armor 3+ cover/invul 4+, 2 wounds HYMP wins.


Even against T4 multiwounds, the HRR hardly pulls further than the HYMP, and in some conditions the HYMP actually pulls ahead even than.

HRR are bad, plain and simple. they lose their rule with the new codex, S8AP1 is just not good enough for anything, not on a platform that pays for two guns and the other gun does not play nice with it. the SMS target other stuff, the plasmas have no range. and S8 with no special rules is just not enough to be a serious anti-tank gun.

If they had given it Lance so it wouldn't be crazy stupid against flyers, but still be viable against heavy vehicles, it would have been good.

Ah, to dream.

 Fafnir13 wrote:
I initially modeled my broadsides with the rail gun, but they were just not effective. 1 shot vs 8 shots? If you take drones, you're looking at 1 shot vs 12 shots. The unit is also very durable, so you really don't need to have them hiding out in the back field.
Maybe if the HRR was still str 10 there could be a good argument made for.

8 shots? HYMPs have 4 shots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Even against multi-wound T4 models, the HRR is hardly any better than the HYMP, and in case of some saves its worse.

In fact unless the armor save it gets against the HYMP is a big difference compared to the cover/invul you get from the HRR, the difference even goes lower, or might disappear.

Example, nid warriors with or without cover? HYMP wins.

Mathematically, the HYMP is more likely to hit (and hence wound) a warrior, but the HRR is more likely to kill one, unless my math is off. In other words, if the HYMP kills a warrior, it will probably need more than one turn to do it, assuming no markerlights increasing BS, whereas if the HRR hits, 5/6 of the time the warrior is dropping.

Anyway, I think the HRR was designed with greater ranges at play in mind that are seen in the average game.

 Nilok wrote:
If they had given it Lance so it wouldn't be crazy stupid against flyers, but still be viable against heavy vehicles, it would have been good.

Ah, to dream.

maybe 2 shots instead of 1 twin-linked would help as well