Krakens of Shada fandex - Need feedback (*Changes* 9th Dec)

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**Ond Angel**

Hello again, Dakka.

EDIT (8/12/14): Looking at another thread "gave me an idea" for my storm bolters. I'll see what you guys think:
Option 1: Keep the storm bolters as they are in this codex (R24", S4, AP5, Salvo 2/4)

Option 2: R24", S4, AP5, Assault 3, Storm
Storm: every to Hit roll of 6 adds another wound in the wound pool.
(thanks to this post for the idea.)

Option 3:
Bolt Pistol - S4 AP5 12" Pistol
Bolter - S4 AP5 24" Salvo 1/2
Storm Bolter - S4 AP5 24" Salvo 2/4
Hurricane Bolter - S4 AP5 24" Salvo 6/12 (Remove Twin-linked)
Heavy Bolter - S5 AP4 36" Salvo 3/5

This one is thanks to this post.

Option 4: Other! Post your own ideas and thoughts, or point me to other suggestions.

Whichever gets used there will be points rebalances where needed.
I'll leave the poll up for 15 days and see what happens.

IMPORTANT: Due to internet issues, I may not be able to reply right away. Keep giving feedback and such. I will try to reply when I can.
Thank you.

Formerly "Iron Hands supplement"

To the point, the main things I wish to know are:
- Points costs! Too much, too little, just right?
- The units themselves: Too powerful? Underwhelming? Not just for their points cost, but in general.
- Warlord traits and Psyker powers: Too much? Too little?
- Ambiguity: Do any of these rules seem they may have more than one meaning, or seem unclear? This is my top priority on fixing, alongside balancing the rules within.

Some things to note when reading this
- The costs on pieces of Wargear (i.e Azazel's Staff) is what I came to the conclusion of their "worth", and is factored into the unit's final cost. It is NOT optional, or an upgrade. It is to show the people interested in how I came about pricing them.
- The Wargear is not added to the statline, unless told otherwise (such as having a bike)

Any and all feedback is appreciated, and will be heavily considered when altering the rules.
I'm happy to answer your questions, and will attempt to do so to the best of my ability.
Edit: I don't mind if you are brutally honest with me. I prefer it that way. If you feel you might be being impolite, or "too harsh" just say so at the end of something that you think comes off that way.

Thank you all in advanced.

Changes (just a summary, so you don't have to search the entire thing every time I say "changed it!")

Spoiler:

Special rules found in the Codex & Armoury.

Spoiler:

KRAKENS OF SHADA WARGEAR LIST
These lists detail the points values of wargear available to the units in your army. Many unit entries will reference the lists within this section for upgrades.

Spoiler:

HQ

Spoiler:

Troops

Spoiler:

Elites

Spoiler:

Heavy Support

Spoiler:

Detachments and Formations

Spoiler:

WARLORD TRAITS (and psychic powers)

Spoiler:

**Happyjew**

Some possible re-writes and suggestions:
Suspicious of Strangers: A Krakens of Shada army may not contain any other factions (including Space Marines with Chapter Tactics). Additionally, a Krakens of Shada army treats all Battle Brothers as Allies of Convenience.

Not quite sure what you mean by "ignoring the last bullet point for all "allied" factions."

Tactical Marines: Replace third bullet point with the following:
Up to two Space Marines may take one weapon from either the Special Weapons or Heavy Weapons list. Both must choose the same weapon.

Any Tactical Squad Sergeant or Veteran Sergeant may be upgraded to a "fill in fluffy name similar to Techmarine, but not Techmarine here" for free, gaining a Servo-arm and the Blessing of the Omnissiah special rule.

Any HQ character may be upgraded to have a Servo-arm for free, gaining the Blessing of the Omnissiah special rule. Any HQ character with a Servo-arm may upgrade to a Servo-Harness for +25 points. A model with a Servo-harness may not take a Jump Pack.

**Ond Angel**

Happyjew wrote:
Some possible re-writes and suggestions:
Suspicious of Strangers: A Krakens of Shada army may not contain any other factions (including Space Marines with Chapter Tactics). Additionally, a Krakens of Shada army treats all Battle Brothers as Allies of Convenience.

Not quite sure what you mean by "ignoring the last bullet point for all "allied" factions."

Tactical Marines: Replace third bullet point with the following:
Up to two Space Marines may take one weapon from either the Special Weapons or Heavy Weapons list. Both must choose the same weapon.

Any Tactical Squad Sergeant or Veteran Sergeant may be upgraded to a "fill in fluffy name similar to Techmarine, but not Techmarine here" for free, gaining a Servo-arm and the Blessing of the Omnissiah special rule.

Any HQ character may be upgraded to have a Servo-arm for free, gaining the Blessing of the Omnissiah special rule. Any HQ character with a Servo-arm may upgrade to a Servo-Harness for +25 points. A model with a Servo-harness may not take a Jump Pack.

Sorry. To clarify, I meant the last bullet point under AoC.

Allies of Convenience wrote: Are affected by attacks, special rules, or abilities...{/quote] is ignored by Battle Brothers that are treated as AoC.

Hope that clears it up. I'm going to clarify in the main post.

Tactical Marines: Thank you. I was trying to think of better wording to make it less cluttered.

I like the Servo-arm/harness ideas. Also, I realised I put "Servo-harness", that was meant to be a Servo-arm.
I'm adding Terminator Armour to the "may not take" sentence, as I don't personally feel like those two things would work together in that kind of way...

**Formosa**

+1 to IWND for 5pts, nope, when combined with the other +1 to IWND means they get it on a 3+, that's worth at least 10pts.

**Ond Angel**

Formosa wrote:
+1 to IWND for 5pts, nope, when combined with the other +1 to IWND means they get it on a 3+, that's worth at least 10pts.

Additionally, they add 1 to their IWND rolls (to a maximum of 4+)

Do you mean this? It caps out at 4+. It doesn't matter how you add all of the bits up. If you manage to get a 3+ IWND from this supplement, you have broken the "to a maximum of 4+" part.

**Formosa**

Didn't see the Max 4+ bit, but when you get iwnd free anyway and up it to a 4+, that's still worth 10pts

**Ond Angel**

Formosa wrote:
Didn't see the Max 4+ bit, but when you get iwnd free anyway and up it to a 4+, that's still worth 10pts

I do see your point. I'll up the points cost for it.

**raverrn**

Is it really necessary for every single special character to have an AP2 melee weapon?

**Ond Angel**

raverrn wrote:
Is it really necessary for every single special character to have an AP2 melee weapon?

What do you mean?
I understand what you're asking, but these are not so much different from Power Axes, Thunder Hammers, Force Axes, etc.

I'll try to explain this as clearly as possible;
The named characters in this supplement are based (heavily) around the kind of loadout I use on the non-homebrew version. So Azrael is normally represented by a level 2 Psyker on a bike with the Mindforge Stave, Digiweapons, and Melta Bombs. Ezekiel is normally a Termi-armour libby, level 2, Force Axe, Melta Bombs, SS, & Digi. (I hope you get the idea here).

Basically, I wanted to make them much closer to their fluff (their background, clarifying as a just-in-case). For example: Sternguard are supposed to be amazing shooters, since the ammo they use is relatively rare. I don't see a BS4 sterny amongst BS4 Marines as an "exceptional shooter". I don't (personally) feel like they should have any more than 1 attack either, since they would have (in my mind) used their training and time in service honing their sharpshooting skills with the Boltgun, not constantly beating the gak out of an Ork Nob.

Sammael is the angel of death amongst all the men in his chapter. He is by no means the best, but he is the best at a swift death when compared to the others. I wanted to reflect that in his rules.

Basically, in the normal Codex these models would normally have access to these weapons (minus most/all of the special rules from this "supplement"). The AP2 everywhere is basically Power Axes and Force Axes.
I hope I haven't sidetracked or confused you, and I do hope I answered your question.

**Formosa**

Yeah that makes sense

**curran12**

Rules and balance-wise, nothing jumps out as terrible to me, though someone with more skill at looking over fine mathematical details and with a better eye for rules should be able to do that better.

However, I do have a problem with this codex. I'm not going to sugar coat this, so I will be straightforward for your benefit. It is exceptionally boring. There is just nothing unique or interesting going on. Everything is "standard marine but better". Every character has, more or less, the same weapon. I just find it very tedious to read what amounts to nearly identical characters over and over and over again. I understand why, everyone wants their AP2 beatsticks, but come on, man, are you that scared of your characters not being able to wade through a squad of Terminators? Special characters are supposed to be SPECIAL, yours look like they have rolled off of the "generic melee Marine character" factory with almost nothing to give them character or flavor. They -work- but they have no soul.

**Ond Angel**

curran12 wrote:
Rules and balance-wise, nothing jumps out as terrible to me, though someone with more skill at looking over fine mathematical details and with a better eye for rules should be able to do that better.

However, I do have a problem with this codex. I'm not going to sugar coat this, so I will be straightforward for your benefit. It is exceptionally boring. There is just nothing unique or interesting going on. Everything is "standard marine but better". Every character has, more or less, the same weapon. I just find it very tedious to read what amounts to nearly identical characters over and over and over again. I understand why, everyone wants their AP2 beatsticks, but come on, man, are you that scared of your characters not being able to wade through a squad of Terminators? Special characters are supposed to be SPECIAL, yours look like they have rolled off of the "generic melee Marine character" factory with almost nothing to give them character or flavor. They -work- but they have no soul.

I appreciate the honesty, and I definitely don't want it sugar coated.
I'm not overly fussed about "wading through terminators", or their equivalents. I find that enough fire or punches in the face works just as well as AP2, since (most of the time) they have a SS too.

Would you have any recommendations for the lack of "soul", as you put it? I have no problem with having just one or two AP2 weapons in there, but say I give them non-AP2 weapons: I wouldn't know where to go in terms of AP, str and points cost for them.
Are there any characters in other Codices that I should look at for a better look at diversity?

**curran12**

Well, think of it this way. Look at the roles that each character most shines in:

Azrael - Melee psyker. He has way too much in his weapons to make sitting him back as a support character viable.

Gadreel - Standard CM on bike, but better.

Sammael - Melee beatstick and tank

They have close to the same saves, and really, apart from one being a bike, they all more or less have the exact same function of getting into combat and soaking up a lot of damage given the prolific distribution of armor and good saves. I believe that you are railroading yourself into thinking just in terms of "how does this character win a fight" which isn't a necessarily BAD line of thought, but it leads to characters who all do the same thing, more or less. Try thinking "what makes this character special in my fluff, and how does that translate onto the tabletop?" That way, you are finding ways to make fielding a special character feel special and meaningful, rather than just another guy with a 2+/3-4++ with a big AP2 weapon.

As for examples, look at how the characters in the Dark Angels codex specialize their armies; Belial with Deathwing and Sammael (yeah, I remember us talking about how you're using a ton of Dark Angels names before) with Ravenwing, and Azrael with both. Using those characters has a wider impact across the army and has unique strategies associated with them.

**Ond Angel**

curran12 wrote:
Well, think of it this way. Look at the roles that each character most shines in:

Azrael - Melee psyker. He has way too much in his weapons to make sitting him back as a support character viable.

Gadreel - Standard CM on bike, but better.

Sammael - Melee beatstick and tank

They have close to the same saves, and really, apart from one being a bike, they all more or less have the exact same function of getting into combat and soaking up a lot of damage given the prolific distribution of armor and good saves. I believe that you are railroading yourself into thinking just in terms of "how does this character win a fight" which isn't a necessarily BAD line of thought, but it leads to characters who all do the same thing, more or less. Try thinking "what makes this character special in my fluff, and how does that translate onto the tabletop?" That way, you are finding ways to make fielding a special character feel special and meaningful, rather than just another guy with a 2+/3-4++ with a big AP2 weapon.

As for examples, look at how the characters in the Dark Angels codex specialize their armies; Belial with Deathwing and Sammael (yeah, I remember us talking about how you're using a ton of Dark Angels names before) with Ravenwing, and Azrael with both. Using those characters has a wider impact across the army and has unique strategies associated with them.

Hmm. I vaguely remember the DA Codex. But would that be things like "makes X unit stronger by doing this", "Helps you to sneak into your opponent's lines", and "unlocks X unit as a Y choice", or am I missing the point/misunderstanding?
I'll dig the DA 'dex out in a minute and have a proper look.

Thank you for the advice, I'll get working on "giving them souls".

**Ond Angel**

I've updated the first post with something somewhat related. More explained under "Experimental units". (A friend's idea, basically)

I've renamed Azrael to Azazel, and Sammael is a Termi sgt upgrade with changes to his original rules.

**raverrn**

Curran covers it pretty well, but I'll shed some more light on what I was getting at. It's not the abundance of AP2, but more the optimization that I have issue with.

Quite frankly, if you showed up at my LGS with this ruleset, I'd be pretty hostile to it - at first glance you've taken the good things in the codex and made them a little better with almost no downside.

Be honest, how often do you run allies in your lists?

Good example, your version of the big melee beatstick HQ. I'm sure you know he's pretty popular around the internet, but why is he built the way he is and why is he in your supplement?

Does your faction have a particular affinity for bikes, or is his just for the +1 Toughness and enhanced movement?

Does your faction have a particular affinity for wielding two opposed melee weapons, some kind of weird lost fighting style, or is his just for the best way to murder things? Honestly, this one gets me the most, I dare you to find fluff about marines rising bikes with their arms full of powerfields.

Is there a reason you felt the need to improve on the Gorgon's Chain?

You can go down the same thought process for each of the special character, it really, really comes off as you liking a particular loadout and then writing a way to make it a little better - and then couching it as fluffy. Even if you haven't or didn't intend to, that's the feeling I get. And no, 'But they cost more points' doesn't make it any better.

I think, and this is an opinion but it's my opinion so it's awesome, that you need to get cool. Throw out all of the Raukaan relics. Make your own. Give me a force weapon servo-arm. Give me a dreadnought with a servo-harness. Give me a melee beatstick who fights with a bunch of mind-synched servitors. Give me a Terminator Sarge that's a head on a totally metal body and he's got like 3 wounds and We'll Be Back! Give me a suit of Terminator armor with a 1+ save. Give me a Servo Harness with a Rending Flamer.

Go hog wild. Have fun. Drop the fething bikes, seriously.

**Ond Angel**

raverrn wrote:
Curran covers it pretty well, but I'll shed some more light on what I was getting at. It's not the abundance of AP2, but more the optimization that I have issue with.

Quite frankly, if you showed up at my LGS with this ruleset, I'd be pretty hostile to it - at first glance you've taken the good things in the codex and made them a little better with almost no downside.

Which is why I don't go to your LGS. (I'm just joking of course.

)
On a serious not: I don't just show up at my local store and say "Yeah, I'm using these. Too bad, you get no say." or anything like that.
There are a small number of people that don't mind playing against it, and I will always ask before I use them, something to this effect:
"Hey, Bob! do you wanna play a game?"
"Sure, why not. How does X points sound?"
"Sure. Do you mind if I use these homebrew rules?" *hand opponent the rules*
I let him read them, and if they don't want to play against them I'll just pull out my usual army list. if they are fine with it, I use the homebrew list.

I'll even sit there and ask them what they think needs improving.
I know this is far from perfect or finished, that's why I've asked people for input.

Be honest, how often do you run allies in your lists?

Never. I don't like them for two reasons:
1) I never liked allies too much to begin with, but I have tried them. They just never grew on me.
2) It doesn't fit into the fluff I've written for them (See the "Suspicious of Strangers" part in the first spoiler tag for a generalisation)

Good example, your version of the big melee beatstick HQ. I'm sure you know he's pretty popular around the internet, but why is he built the way he is and why is he in your supplement?

I've seen that build mentioned a few times on this forum, I wasn't aware he was such an internet "celebrity". He's built like that because I've built him that way since day 1 of the Space Marine 6th ed Codex coming out. The supplement got released and I switched for more killy-power and the Gorgon Chain. He's that way in the supplement because I don't *really* want a direct Shield Eternal clone, and the possibility of getting a 2+ FNP with the Gorgon Chain is silly (in my opinion). It's relatively similar because I based the guy around his non-homebrew counterpart.

Although Gadreel's Chain of the Kraken (I still need to edit that name to Kraken's Blight) has a major part in the fluff for their eventual fall to Chaos.

Does your faction have a particular affinity for bikes, or is his just for the +1 Toughness and enhanced movement?

The handful of bikes (3 or 4, I believe) are just how I built the models, and build the models in the non-supplement version. There is no real affinity for them. I've kept it (non-homebrew wise) because I feel it's a good tactical choice. T5 and faster movement helps an awful lot, y'know?. Homebrew wise; as I said above, they're based on the non-homebrew version.

Does your faction have a particular affinity for wielding two opposed melee weapons, some kind of weird lost fighting style, or is his just for the best way to murder things? Honestly, this one gets me the most, I dare you to find fluff about marines rising bikes with their arms full of powerfields.

Murder, honestly. It's not so much a fluff thing, I'll give you that.
Hammer attached to back, right hand on motorcylce handle, left hand in Lightning claw. Ride forward, while they're knocked down just jump off the bike, start swingin' a hammer!
That's how I like to envision it.

Is there a reason you felt the need to improve on the Gorgon's Chain?

I changed one thing, which is that the chain did to the shield to be fair. As above "I don't *really* want a direct Shield Eternal clone, and the possibility of getting a 2+ FNP with the Gorgon Chain".

You can go down the same thought process for each of the special character, it really, really comes off as you liking a particular loadout and then writing a way to make it a little better - and then couching it as fluffy. Even if you haven't or didn't intend to, that's the feeling I get. And no, 'But they cost more points' doesn't make it any better.

The basis of the characters are a particular loadout I give them on the non-homebrew. I won't say it's not true. I ended up fluffing the chapter and certain models got particular names. I came up with fluff, and realised that their rules from the SM 'dex doesn't reflect it too well, so I wanted to change that. That is why it feels like they are based off of a particular loadout.

I don't want to just "up their points and make them better"; I want them to have drawbacks too. I've been trying to figure out the ways to do it, but I look in other codices and I see nearly no drawbacks on characters.

I think, and this is an opinion but it's my opinion so it's awesome, that you need to get cool. Throw out all of the Raukaan relics. Make your own. Give me a force weapon servo-arm. Give me a dreadnought with a servo-harness. Give me a melee beatstick who fights with a bunch of mind-synched servitors. Give me a Terminator Sarge that's a head on a totally metal body and he's got like 3 wounds and We'll Be Back! Give me a suit of Terminator armor with a 1+ save. Give me a Servo Harness with a Rending Flamer.

Go hog wild. Have fun. Drop the fething bikes, seriously.

I had to read that a few times, and it made me chuckle.
But, out of interest, why drop the bikes?

Hope I've answered your questions.
If I haven't, let me know. I'll try again tomorrow (I really am tired right now.)

**raverrn**

Ond Angel wrote:

Which is why I don't go to your LGS....

Right. But you're here asking an opinion, and it's mine. Like I said I'm not saying it's even your intention, but on first read this is "The army I like, but better and fake disadvantages to 'compensate'.

Never. I don't like them for two reasons...

Again, fine. But this pretty much disqualifies that rule as a balancing factor.

I've seen that build mentioned a few times on this forum, I wasn't aware he was such an internet "celebrity". He's built like that because I've built him that way since day 1 of the Space Marine 6th ed Codex coming out...

You and everyone else, including the Raukaan upgrade to a Lightning Claw from the Shield Eternal. Here's a link. Fair warning, foul language ahead.

...There is no real affinity for them. I've kept it (non-homebrew wise) because I feel it's a good tactical choice...

There should, again opinion, be a good fluff reason for your special characters to be on bikes - these guys are supposed to represent your chapter, after all! There's a reason the only characters on bikes at the moment are White Scars and Ravenwing - they represent their forces.

Murder, honestly. It's not so much a fluff thing, I'll give you that.

Does ANYONE pair a Lightning Claw with something besides another LC, currently?

I changed one thing, which is that the chain did to the shield to be fair...

You gave it a significant bonus in the +1 S and also took away one of the biggest downsides, the defense reduction on wounds taken. The +1 to FNP is reduced somewhat by army-wide (or at least character-wide) access to FNP 5+.

I don't want to just "up their points and make them better"; I want them to have drawbacks too. I've been trying to figure out the ways to do it...

There are perfectly acceptable ways to do this - Not adding +1 to every relevant stat, for one. Or giving someone a grat ability or suboptimal loadout, for two. You have to admit, when you SC has the best AP2 weapon and the best AP3 weapon, you're aiming at rules first and fluff second.

I had to read that a few times, and it made me chuckle.
But, out of interest, why drop the bikes?

Because Iron Hands are known for their bike people?

I'd like to also point out I'm being quite critical, but I don't pretend I'm the arbiter of what's right in rules. If you have fun with it and your opponent has fun with it, go right ahead. This just isn't my style.

**Evil Party Girl**

5000 point Iron Hands player here (also big AdMech "count as" player). I like some of the ideas but there is no way this would fly in my group. I don't play in tournies or at the shop, but I have to agree that I'd be like extremely sceptic if you rocked up expecting to play that.

IH have their supplement. It's not the best but it's ok. Why does a home brew need to be that much better and full of fantastic ideas? You don't even have tactical marines or scouts in Troops? My feeling is that you have created something a kin to (half) a new codex for another race and (half) standard marine with much better wargear; rather than space marine chapter supplement.

I'd just recommend from a fluff and existing models argument: Terminator armour for squad sergeants at +x points (FW have some cool minis) & your warlord can take Terminator, Blessing of Omnissiah & Servo-arm paid for as a powerfist (again FW have a cool mini for this). Keep it simple, particularly if you have to convince other people to play you.

Marines aren't boring. IH aren't boring. If I want to shock and awe an opponent I quite like going Seige assault list (IH chapter tactics), MoTF for lots of Relics & Admech allies which count as IG Tank Commander (to field the pretty FW tanks) and Skittari Vets in Chimera. My point being, you don't need to write your own codex to get away from the vanilla.

Sorry to disagree. I just find this excessive. It feels like an unbound army with all the best bits from every codex rolled into one.

<edited to be more polite in places>

**Formosa**

on the whole im liking this so far, and that's saying something as I usually really dislike people homebrew.

well done

**Ond Angel**

First of all, I apologise that it's taken so long to reply, my internet has been dropping in and out constantly, making it near impossible to post a reply, let alone view the thread.

Moving on:

@raverrn

Spoiler:

@Evil Party Girl

Spoiler:

Formosa wrote:
on the whole im liking this so far, and that's saying something as I usually really dislike people homebrew.

well done

Thank you.

Edit: (28/11): Editing the main post with updates. Should be up shortly, unless my internet starts dropping out again.
Edited Edit: Main post updated

**Ond Angel**

New updates!
I've managed to get the post to edit.

**raverrn**

I'll have to sit down to read through it fully...

But I think you got the right fuckin' idea.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Right, getting down to nuts and bolts.

"In Death I serve" should be under the Dreadnought entry.

Why is Lumbering Hulk a thing? What's the intention?

Warp Mishap is weird. Also, just have it give the model a void shield as opposed to all that wording.

The new Stormbolter is fine, but prices may need to be rejiggered.

Disciples could stand to be worded better. Also it totally works on Dismantlers, is that intentional?

Does Gadreel need the Thunder Hammer if he has a Servoarm?

Same question for his Champion.

Gadreel should have the Daemon special rule. It'd be cool.

The Honor Guard need to be upped in points. Right now they're a damn sight better than terminators - faster, tougher, more attacks. I'd gut-check it at least 50 points.

Banner of Helios needs to be more points, replace the model's melee weapon or both.

Helios Psyker needs to be +15 or +20 points for the Servoarm and Omnisiah.

The +1 LD upgrade should just say +1 LD, not some convoluted other thing.

Scouts shouldn't have +1 LD option. They're scouts!

Don't Sniper Rifles have pinning already?

The dreads are probably a bit too powerful. Rampage is a damn good ability to have on a model that's immune to krak grenades and has 4 attacks already!

Watcher Template rounds need to be reworded or explain how template works with Salvo or something. I know what you were going for, but mechanically it doesn't work.

10x template weapons in a squad is probably too good in any case. Overwatch is a friggin' nightmare. Maybe Blast instead?

The AP2 round, ditto. That's a crapton of AP fire from fairly cheap dudes. AP3 instead?

Helios shield doesn't need to specify 'while he's alive'

Dismantlers probably need to be a little more expensive. They're edging out Genestealers as-is.

Limit the ammount of weapons in a support squad. That kind of thing belongs in the HH books.

Vehicle storm bolter upgrade should be 10 points.

**Evil Party Girl**

I'd just recommend from a fluff and existing models argument: Terminator armour for squad sergeants at +x points (FW have some cool minis) & your warlord can take Terminator, Blessing of Omnissiah & Servo-arm paid for as a powerfist (again FW have a cool mini for this). Keep it simple, particularly if you have to convince other people to play you.

However, I don't believe a suit of temi armour would be granted to a sergeant if he's not leading other terminator-clad soldiers. If it's been done before, then please point me i the right direction. Terminator armour is, from what I understand, relatively rare. If sergeants are getting it at a whim, it doesn't "feel" it's so rare.
I also do not feel that servo arms could be mounted to terminator armour (again, point me in the right direction if it's otherwise stated)

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Iron_Hands see

Terminators and Veteran Sergeants
After the events of the battle of Istvaan V the Iron Hands lost most of their veteran forces. Therefore, suits of Terminator armour are even more rare than is normally the case. Due to this, the deployment of full Terminator Squads is rare. However sergeants are often equipped with suits of Terminator armour as the inspirational value they provide to their squads is invaluable.

---

Sorry still learning how to use dakkadakka, not sure i got the quote thing right.

OK so if this is more of a thought exercise, I like it. I will throw in a few ideas that I have but don't really get to play in my group.

#1 I like that you have characters. Iron Hands have no characters in any published books. Go nuts, we need them.

#2 No terminator squads / first company (it's fluffy, but i thought we were supposed to be in good with the admech and would get resupplied.., apparently not)

#3 Upgrade Tac, Dev, Command, Stern, Vang squads veteran sergants to terminator armour at +X points

#4 No chaplain. Should be Iron Father. WS5 (from Chap) BS5 (from MoTF) otherwise he is a marine "minor hero" (shows how old I am) kitted out in either Artificer + Servo harness or Terminator + Servo Arm. Iron Father lets you take multiple Relics of the Armoury (from FW).

#5 IH Power Axes count are "specialist weapons" when used with Servo Arms (why oh why does SM codex Techmarine have a power axe option at +15 when he comes with Servo Arm)

#6 Captains can buy Power Axe & Servo Arm & Blessing of the Omnissiah at +30 points

#7 "Dedicated dreadnoughts" - A footslogging maxed out tactical squad (i.e. full sized and has a upgraded veteran seargent) if may take a dreadnought (must remain in 2" coherency unless immobolised). Enemy can target dreadnought if it's not the closest model, but it gets 5+ cover; or Enemy can target troops if they're not the closest but they get 5+ cover save.

#8 Techmarines are 40 points and upgraded to Veteran sergeants for +10

#9 Servitors are at Inq prices

#10 Librarian taking Telekinesis can choose 'Objuration Mechanicum' if they want

#11 Vehicles can take Automated Servo Arm wargear that attacks when vehicle is assaulted and assists a techmarine when being repaired

**Ond Angel**

Edit: I've edited my reply to both of you.

raverrn wrote:Right, getting down to nuts and bolts.

Spoiler:

@ Evil Party Girl

Spoiler:

**Evil Party Girl**

The 'dedicated dreadnought' idea is kind of fusion of Siege Dreadnought Talon (buying 3 dreads as a troop choice and at/after deployment they are individual units) and the Helcult from Dataslate: Hellbrutes (buying a dread and 2 cultists which have special rules how they interact). So close precedents exist. Fluff-wise IH are supposed to use lots of dreads (hence we can buy them as heavies as well as elites, like anyone would??). My take in IH is 'man and machine' as well as cybernetic surgery and the like. The dedicated dreadnought is way of getting basic dreads on the field as scoring units. I think the dreads shouldn't have many options (definitely not recommending mortis dreads, venerables etc..) for this idea. Maybe it can just be upgraded with split fire at +x points.

Hmm, good question about left over shots when a dreadnought is wrecked if it's technically part of the unit.

I'd say, the dread has to stay in coherency with the tactical unit and counts as part of the unit for assaulting/being assaulted. It counts as a separate entity regarding enemy shooting. The who's blocking who re: LOS & cover save is a standard rule anyway.

Re: left over shots, unless you're playing 30k with 10 missile launchers/lascannons firing at you from a single unit, it doesn't happen too much (in my games anyway). Under this proposal, let's say a landraider scores two hits and wrecks it on the first one, I think my opponent should just be happy they wrecked the dread and the second shot is lost. Hypothetically, it is not different to a dreadnought that I was voluntarily keeping within 2" of a tactical squad.

----

Why cheaper techmarines? Because they suck so bad at 50 points. I almost never use them (except as thunderfire cannon gunners). IH (Clan) have special rules for extra max # techmarines, so from a fluff point, the game designers think we'll take them as a viable unit, vis-a-vis Servitors too - but they are just so little bang for buck. I do think the Inquisitor codex servitors are underpriced though. Maybe a middle ground somewhere with some different wargear options. (Remember I have a Admech count as army too so converted servitors are a mainstay in my lists/count as).

**raverrn**

"In Death I serve" should be under the Dreadnought entry. - To tidy it up? Or for another reason?

Just to keep things neat.

Why is Lumbering Hulk a thing? What's the intention? - I wanted the Siege-class to be unable to run, but still be able to fire overwatch providing it does not move.
In my mind, I picture this great behemoth of a Dreadnought with these huge arms, moving slowly. More of a gun platform.

Instead of a special rule that gives you another special rule, better to just come out and say that.

The new Stormbolter is fine, but prices may need to be rejiggered. - Does 7pts sound reasonable?

I was thinking 5 points on models who aren't relentless and 10 on models that are.t

The Honor Guard need to be upped in points. Right now they're a damn sight better than terminators - faster, tougher, more attacks. I'd gut-check it at least 50 points.
I ran the numbers (assuming 4s to hit, and T4 targets)
TH/SS: 0.83 wounds
LC/LC: 2.25
Honour Guard: 1

Slightly better than TH/SS in terms of attacks, about half as good as a LC termy.
I'm going to re-price them to 40pts and see how that goes.

Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard are 40 points for a 2+ save and Jump Packs, but they have a AP3 weapon and no Invuln save. That's what I'm basing my opinion on.

Helios Psyker needs to be +15 or +20 points for the Servoarm and Omnisiah.

Because adding a powerfist to a model should cost points?

The AP2 round, ditto. That's a crapton of AP fire from fairly cheap dudes. AP3 instead?
I'm sure I made those Salvo 1/1 as well. If I haven't, I'll change that.
Edit: I was thinking of the armourbane rounds.
I did the math for the AP2 ones; I would do 1 or 2 (with 10 and 20 shots respectively) unsaved wounds (assuming T4, 3++, and no FNP)
Without a 3++, it should only equate to approximately 4/8 wounds, again depending on 10 and 20 shots respectively.

And you don't see the problem acing ~6 terminators?

**Ond Angel**

@Evil Party Girl

Spoiler:

Evil Party Girl wrote:The 'dedicated dreadnought' idea is kind of fusion of Siege Dreadnought Talon (buying 3 dreads as a troop choice and at/after deployment they are individual units) and the Helcult from Dataslate: Hellbrutes (buying a dread and 2 cultists which have special rules how they interact). So close precedents exist. Fluff-wise IH are supposed to use lots of dreads (hence we can buy them as heavies as well as elites, like anyone would??). My take in IH is 'man and machine' as well as cybernetic surgery and the like. The dedicated dreadnought is way of getting basic dreads on the field as scoring units. I think the dreads shouldn't have many options (definitely not recommending mortis dreads, venerables etc..) for this idea. Maybe it can just be upgraded with split fire at +x points.

Hmm, good question about left over shots when a dreadnought is wrecked if it's technically part of the unit.

I'd say, the dread has to stay in coherency with the tactical unit and counts as part of the unit for assaulting/being assaulted. It counts as a separate entity regarding enemy shooting. The who's blocking who re: LOS & cover save is a standard rule anyway.

Re: left over shots, unless you're playing 30k with 10 missile launchers/lascannons firing at you from a single unit, it doesn't happen too much (in my games anyway). Under this proposal, let's say a landraider scores two hits and wrecks it on the first one, I think my opponent should just be happy they wrecked the dread and the second shot is lost. Hypothetically, it is not different to a dreadnought that I was voluntarily keeping within 2" of a tactical squad.

I suppose it works out okay.
Since weapons are done one at a time now, units with Anti-Tank + boltguns/other can fire the appropriate one first (Multi-melta for dreads, then follow up with hurricane bolters for the tacs behind them, should the dread drop) If the dread doesn't drop, then tough gak. If it does, then congrats! You can now (try) to kill the marines behind it.
It offers certain strategic value too, as it's a case of "Do I guarantee the dread will swing and risk getting opened up like a tin can, or do I send cannon fodder into the tank weaponry and pray?"
I admit that this is an incredibly interesting concept, and I like the idea behind it. The only problem I see is the Combat Squads rule. How would it interact with 10men + dread?
I don't see any other immediate problem... I'll work on the idea some more and see how it pans out.

Why cheaper techmarines? Because they suck so bad at 50 points. I almost never use them (except as thunderfire cannon gunners). IH (Clan) have special rules for extra max # techmarines, so from a fluff point, the game designers think we'll take them as a viable unit, vis-a-vis Servitors too - but they are just so little bang for buck. I do think the Inquisitor codex servitors are underpriced though. Maybe a middle ground somewhere with some different wargear options. (Remember I have a Admech count as army too so converted servitors are a mainstay in my lists/count as).

I see your point.
I barely use them at 50pts. I figure there's better things to field.
I prefer servo-arm servitors. Fluff wise, my chapter hates plasma (hence the lack of plasma), and heavy bolter Servitors just seem silly to me.
I'll consider a points redo for them, it's just a case of "Will they be balanced?" Mind, it gives me an idea now...

@raverrn

Spoiler:

**Ond Angel**

New post!

Also, question about the storm bolters and direction of bolt weapons for the codex.
I shall be making it a poll. Stand by!
(info is at the top of the first post)

**pelicaniforce**

Ond Angel wrote:

Bolter - S4 AP5 24" Salvo 1/2

What do you think about this? Like, play some tactical squads in a game. They approach an enemy unit, disembark from their transport, and fire, well, some very limited bolter fire..

Now here is a thing. I cannot immediately believe, just on my own, that you are going to use most of the units in the army list. Your Librarian and Techmarine have options for storm bolters. Do you own or do you intend to build models for librarians and techmarines both with and without storm bolters?

If you are not, then I think that parts of this fandex are a little superfluous.

If you are, are you prepared for the ones that have storm bolters to pay five points for them, even though your salvo 2/4 storm bolters are actually worse for power armored models than normal rapid fire bolters?