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Without the rerolls on Grav that centurions have, why does everyone take grav on their bikes? With you needing a "6" to do anything to vehicles, aren't meltas still more efficient?

Sure you can kill big nasties like Wraithknights more easily, but perhaps a mix would be better for all around? I just see everyone always spamming grav and nothing else.

You don't take grav for its tank killing power, you take grav for how good it also is against MCs and heavy infantry. Plus in 7ed Melta isn't even that much better at killing vehicles since its so hard to roll and explode result

You need a '6' to hurt a vehicle, but with the grav weapon's high rate of fire, you can still do this.

More importantly, it's fully effective against a vehicle from 18" away, whilst a bike needs to get within 6" to use a meltagun to full effect - at which point you'll be charging and using grenades anyway. Two meltagun hits from 12" away will probably get you a hull point or two (depending on armour) off which might also come with a penetrating hit roll.

six grav gun hits will probably get you a hull point (regardless of armour) off which will come with an immobilized result. Against assault walkers and transports, that garuanteed immobilized result is worth at least as much as the hull point.

It's more flexibility than anything. The only thing grav-guns aren't much use against is hordes of lightly armoured infantry - which the twin-linked bolter is very good at chopping up.

Yep, Grav on bikes are better than plasma to hurt MCs/2+ infantry

locarno24 wrote:

It's more flexibility than anything. The only thing grav-guns aren't much use against is hordes of lightly armoured infantry - which the twin-linked bolter is very good at chopping up.

As if melta's great vs hordes.

Meltas are only better against vehicles. Against almost every other type of target, they are out-classed by gravguns - even against infantry with 5+ armor.

But your never going to get 6 grav hits unless your buying the squad a combi grab also...

What about waveserpents and Knights?

Budzerker wrote:
But your never going to get 6 grav hits unless your buying the squad a combi grab also...

What about waveserpents and Knights?

That is not the Grav-Bike's Job.

Even if it were, Melta isn't the right tool for Serpents and WK. I havent run the numbers, but Grav probably kicks the snot out of Melta on both.

Against the WK's, there's no comparison - Gravguns are strictly better.

Against Wave Serpents, a trio of gravbikers /w a combigrav has a less than even chance of causing an immobilized result (assuming it jinks). A trio of meltaguns will usually cause 1 glance. Neither is particularly effective. You would get better results trying to get them into close combat, so that you can you can bypass jink and SS saves and hit it with meltabombs.

Melta is exacltly 3x as likely to have an effect 6-12".
Grav has 3x shots at 18"

Melta has a (2/6)(1/6) to have a random pen effect.
Grav always causes Immobilize

Melta does have a small chance to Explodes a serpent, but failing that (or 2 immobilize pens), needs 3 glance+ hits to drop a Serpent.

Grav needs 2 6s. And after the first one it is immobilized. Which means its dead next round at the latest.

Melts does better within 6" and on rear armor, but the squad will kill the Serpent anyways in those cases.

Grav is fully effective at 18".

Still not a good counter for Serpents, but miles better than Meltas.

Bharring wrote:
Melta is exacltly 3x as likely to have an effect 6-12".
Grav has 3x shots at 18"

Melta has a (2/6)(1/6) to have a random pen effect.
Grav always causes Immobilize

Melta does have a small chance to Explodes a serpent, but failing that (or 2 immobilize pens), needs 3 glance+ hits to drop a Serpent.

Grav needs 2 6s. And after the first one it is immobilized. Which means its dead next round at the latest.

Melts does better within 6" and on rear armor, but the squad will kill the Serpent anyways in those cases.

Grav is fully effective at 18".

Still not a good counter for Serpents, but miles better than Meltas.

What about Plasma-Guns?

Grav guns compare relatively well to melta and plasma.

Importantly though, they circumvent high T defense and become extremely effective against certain targets that are generally prevalent in the meta.

Compare performance of grav, melta, and plasma on WK, Cents, or T. C'tan.

I think it because it is more flexible to have Gravs. You facing Grey Knight Teminators? Great, use your Grav Gun. You facing Termagaunts? No problem, just use your TL Boltgun on the bike.

 WarbossDakka wrote:
I think it because it is more flexible to have Gravs. You facing Grey Knight Teminators? Great, use your Grav Gun. You facing Termagaunts? No problem, just use your TL Boltgun on the bike.

Your point is very true. There really isn't a downside to grav. However, in addition to being flexible and not having a downside, they outright murder certain targets.

Plasma on mounted command squads, grav on bike squads, multimeltas on attack bike squads. Is nice.

I'm stuck with plasmas on my bike squads, due to nabbing them all from Dark Vengeance... My gaming group is lax tho, and I could always proxy the as grav.... but naaaah! Now a grav command squad to escort a captain or chapter master sounds great tho.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I'm stuck with plasmas on my bike squads, due to nabbing them all from Dark Vengeance... My gaming group is lax tho, and I could always proxy the as grav.... but naaaah! Now a grav command squad to escort a captain or chapter master sounds great tho.

This. Just over 200 points for 15 Grav Gun shots on a more mobile platform than Centurions. Give them a Chapter Master to tank wounds, they'll get some work done for you!

Follow up question:

Every bike list I see people run 5man squads.

Are only 5 guys really durable enough to not give up an easy 1st blood? Especially in the world of the WaveSerpent.

Budzerker wrote:
Follow up question:

Every bike list I see people run 5man squads.

Are only 5 guys really durable enough to not give up an easy 1st blood? Especially in the world of the WaveSerpent.

Same question I was trying to answer. I guess the MSU road nets you more scoring units and special weapons, but I can't understand why people don't pick full bike squads and from then eventually combat squad them, since i think they give up First Blood quite easily. Plus lose 2 bikers and with a wrong roll you run out of the board with a 3D6 fallback move.
Can someone explain please?

First Blood isn't the end of the world. By limiting your squad sizes, you can squeeze in an extra unit or two giving you more flexibility (and often more special weapons) on the field. Most units can be focused down no matter how big you make them anyways.

Because in 6th and 7th overkill is the in thing. Rather lose 5 bikers to tons o guns than 9 and an attack bike.

Guess I'll have to magnetize more bikes then!!

 mathaius90 wrote:

Budzerker wrote:
Follow up question:

Every bike list I see people run 5man squads.

Are only 5 guys really durable enough to not give up an easy 1st blood? Especially in the world of the WaveSerpent.

Same question I was trying to answer. I guess the MSU road nets you more scoring units and special weapons, but I can't understand why people don't pick full bike squads and from then eventually combat squad them, since i think they give up First Blood quite easily. Plus lose 2 bikers and with a wrong roll you run out of the board with a 3D6 fallback move.
Can someone explain please?

Combat Squads still give up first blood, and having the extra special weapons is worth it.

290 points gets you 2 5 man bike squads with a total of 4 grav guns and 2 combi-gravs. 263 points gets you 8 bikes and an attack bike, with 2 grav guns, one combi-grav, and a multi-melta.

27 more points for twice the special weapons, fills the required troop alotment, and more models seems good to me. (Slightly better vs S10)

I could see doing a 10 man melta bike squad (its on my to-get list), but only for fluff/aesthetics reasons (Grav looks too much like an awesome rifle to not put on Tacs!).

Against av 10 (and possibly 11), Melta will actually do better. That said, it can still do decent damage to av10/11, and is much better at a lot of other targets.

As for 2x5 or 1x10 Combat Squadded, 2x5 is going to have better dakka per point, unless you run out of slots (unlikely).