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Weird that I haven't seen much about this, seems like a pretty big deal to me!
http://international.sueddeutsche.de/post/103543418200/snowden-leaks-how-vodafone-subsidiary-cable

This is the original article. GCHQ has been tapping a large amount of data from cables coming into Europe and out of Europe. The british government is completely unapologetic, as it's data protection laws are laughably vague. There has been very little in the way of debate that I've seen in the UK.

The Irish press is up in arms because they were essentially tapping all of the traffic that passed through, our connection to the wider internet, and storing the data for three days and the metadata for 30 days. The current Irish government is complicit in this of course, without informing the public (of course) and has even passed a law to allow the prosecution of non-cooperating telecommunications companies in a secret court, where they will be forbidden from publicly discussing the case at all (even the fact that it exists!).

Totally disgusted on this front.

So, UK posters- Are you happy with this level of spying by your government? Do you worry about the diplomatic effects of something like this?

I've got to say, and I am normally vehemently anti-Sinn Féin, but this was the first time I've ever thought "Jesus, they'd probably be the only party who would kick up a fuss about that!"

Managed to create an issue I'd be willing to vote Sinn Féin on...

Lets be real here.

Every government is doing this. Whether they say they're doing it or not, or whether they're supposed to do it or not, they are doing it. NSA got caught, not the UK has been caught, theres more than enough reason to think France and Germany are doing the same. Honestly the only country I've seen nothing about on this is Italy.

So you're okay with widespread wiretapping? Or are you annoyed about it? "Let's be real here" is a bit patronising, and implies that me wanting news of widespread spying to at least cause embarrassment to governments as naive, when it's actually pretty reasonable.

I'm pretty annoyed that the UK government hasn't even had the decency to apologise for spying on communications to this scale, and I'm furious that the governments spied upon have nothing to say.

Christ. If you want to make the internet public, then friggin' go out and do it. This dishonest bs is disgusting. If the internet needs to be public for "safety", then enact laws and tell people outright they have no right to privacy on the net. Until then, no mass collection of data should take place.

I'm as cynical as the next person, but isn't it worth getting annoyed about, at least? Our representatives should know where we stand on this gak. If we let them away with this, the next thing they do will be even more invasive.

 Da Boss wrote:
So you're okay with widespread wiretapping?

No, but I find it odd when people are shocked its happening, or assign some kind of specific governmental blame (as if the UK is somehow worse than anyone else doing the exact same thing. Maybe you didn't mean this. That's just how I read it. Apologies if misunderstood.).

cause embarrassment to governments as naive

Governments I find are quite robust against embarrassment (except for Germany in 1908! Zing!)

and I'm furious that the governments spied upon have nothing to say.

Wonder why

If you want to make the internet public, then friggin' go out and do it.

And this annoys me too. The Internet already is public. There is no privacy on social media, or when your personal information is on a thousand different servers being bought and sold by every mailing list that wants to sell you something. It doesn't annoy me so much because I'm not under any misconceptions about what is going on here. I think it's wrong, but I expect it and I expect nothing to change anytime soon.

Unfortunately the law still doesn't get the internet (probably because a lot of lawmakers don't seem to get the internet as anything more than a really fancy telephone with pictures). I don't see any serious reform for data privacy coming anytime soon, especially when there's so much money and power to be had in maintaining things how they are.

Well, your attitude is part of the problem. Of course I'm not shocked that the UK is spying, but god damnit, there are supposed to be consequences to getting caught doing something this huge.

Very depressed at the whole situation.

The internet became "public" without any debate on the matter, and now you're an idiot if you think that is a problem. Feth.

Not happy with this kind of thing at all, nor the constant press for more overt powers while continuing to remove liberties behind the scenes all in the name of "terrorists".

I do not want to live in a totalitarian state where I have more to fear from my own government than any nebulous threat of external danger.

Governments have spied on other governments and their people (and their own) since the dawn of governance. The world keeps on turning. Until they whip out the secret police *glares at FISA Courts suspiciously* I assign it to a lower rung of things that work me up.

EDIT: That and as I've said in other threads, it baffles me how people get upset only when governments do this. You're connected to EA's servers every time you play one of their games on your computer, through a system that openly states it's collecting information on you, and you only get upset when the government does it? They're late comers to this little game.

 LordofHats wrote:
That and as I've said in other threads, it baffles me how people get upset only when governments do this. You're connected to EA's servers every time you play one of their games on your computer, through a system that openly states it's collecting information on you, and you only get upset when the government does it? They're late comers to this little game.

You think that people only have an issue with governments doing this kind of thing?

I have an issue with the government doing this WITHOUT MY PERMISSION and WITHOUT NOTIFYING ME THAT THEY ARE DOING IT. Especially if they are a foreign government with a poor track record on human rights.

UK watchdog finds UK spies innocent shocker:
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/dec/05/uk-mass-surveillance-laws-human-rights-tribunal-gchq

 LordofHats wrote:
Lets be real here.

Every government is doing this. Whether they say they're doing it or not, or whether they're supposed to do it or not, they are doing it. NSA got caught, not the UK has been caught, theres more than enough reason to think France and Germany are doing the same. Honestly the only country I've seen nothing about on this is Italy.

Its not so much that the NSA got caught but that Gordon Brown did a lot of poodle work for the US, shared the info fully with the Americans and when the NSA had its string of leaks got exposed as well.
A bit embarassing.

The GCHQ has been cleared by the high court two days ago to continue evesdropping, not that it would stop anyway.

LordofHats is right, every major government runs spies, and most run assassins too. They are part of the tools of state that are necessary for survival in the modern world.

"Those who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

-Benjamin Franklin


If we don't hold our respective governments accountable for chipping away our freedom under flimsy pretexts, we get what we asked(or kept mum) for, both now and later.


"Silence is golden, duct tape is silver."

-my T-shirt


A humorous barb at verbal diarrhea spewers, but in a dystopian future it could be a euphemism for both the law of the land and the penalty for breaking it. Not cool.

(Yeah...I'm not copasetic with 'exploratory' eavesdropping at all).

I'm more shocked that shock has occurred because *shock* the government has been found to be doing nothing wrong.*shock*

I'm shrugging my shoulders at this information, because I live in a developed country and to effect any real change would cause upheaval to my fairly comfortable life - and I am not disgusted enough to storm Parliment and risk bloodshed.

Personally I'm shocked that anyone is naive enough to think the various governments aren't eavesdropping on the internet....

Of course we're not that fething naive, but we would like to think that when you get caught doing something wrong like that, you should be contrite and make amends to the system.

Is that so hard to understand? Also that when you have actual proof of them doing it, rather than the assumption, it changes things considerably.

Not shocked, still disgusting, there won't be any consequences of course.

There is a case to be made for internet traffic spying on the grounds of searching for evidence about crime and terrorism.

However most governments probably have gone ahead with doing this whether legally or not without having the public debate that democracy should require.

It doesn't surprise me that people are angered by it. No-one expects to allow the government to open their post, tap their phone or search through their house without a legal process. Internet traffic searching is similar to these activities, but a lot easier.

I'm appalled by it, but I'm more appalled that more people aren't appalled.

Frankly though, at the end of the day, I'm more afraid of my own government than one that can't get to me nearly as easy.

And yet if it had not been made public, no one would have been aware. What the government chooses to do with my internet traffic history is up to them. Fret not, unless you are planning on doing something illegal, you can still say and pretty much do what you like on the internet...

I'm going to continue to be blissfully unaware of what GCHQ is up to, because I have a job, a mortgage to pay and mouths to feed. Basically, I'm too damn busy to worry about a semi-shady Government department.

 sarpedons-right-hand wrote:
And yet if it had not been made public, no one would have been aware. What the government chooses to do with my internet traffic history is up to them. Fret not, unless you are planning on doing something illegal, you can still say and pretty much do what you like on the internet...

I'm going to continue to be blissfully unaware of what GCHQ is up to, because I have a job, a mortgage to pay and mouths to feed. Basically, I'm too damn busy to worry about a semi-shady Government department.

Which works provided that you never express an opinion that might at some later date mark you as a "person of interest". I mean, not so long ago were the days of McCarthyism, but I suppose that wouldn't ever happen again, right?

 Da Boss wrote:
I have an issue with the government doing this WITHOUT MY PERMISSION and WITHOUT NOTIFYING ME THAT THEY ARE DOING IT. Especially if they are a foreign government with a poor track record on human rights.

UK watchdog finds UK spies innocent shocker:
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/dec/05/uk-mass-surveillance-laws-human-rights-tribunal-gchq

How does the UK have a 'poor track record' on human rights? Compared to most countries we are very good. We bend over backwards to follow human rights directives which is why we took so long to deport Abu Qatada properly. We also have one of the best social care systems in the world and European nations moan it attracts immigration through their countries. We truly are a hell hole here. Meanwhile, unlike the UK where you can wear what you like short of indecent exposure, countries like France pass laws to ban Muslim women wearing veils and European court nods in agreement.

heres the thing, the vast majority of people and lazy and stupid, they don't care about any of this as long as they get there daily dose of brain numbing crap like football, only way is Essex.

do you think that some woman with 4 kids from 4 diferent dads gives a crap if she is being tapped, what about the middle aged housewife? the well paid business runners? no they only care if there money is affected.

until people actually get off there lazy fat arses and actually do something about such things the governments of the world will keep getting away with this kind of thing.

 Formosa wrote:


until people actually get off there lazy fat arses and actually do something about such things the governments of the world will keep getting away with this kind of thing.

It isn't laziness per se. We just have too much to loose to go about tearing down government.

I'll stick my neck out and say that An Arab Spring style uprising will not happen whilst we have a comfortable standard of living, food on the shelves and paracetamol for our foo foos. And we would need such an event.

Hell, Occupy would not have existed were it not for the availability of goods and services to keep them going.

The developed world just doesn't have it in them to force change.

 Formosa wrote:
heres the thing, the vast majority of people and lazy and stupid, they don't care about any of this as long as they get there daily dose of brain numbing crap like football, only way is Essex.

do you think that some woman with 4 kids from 4 diferent dads gives a crap if she is being tapped, what about the middle aged housewife? the well paid business runners? no they only care if there money is affected.

until people actually get off there lazy fat arses and actually do something about such things the governments of the world will keep getting away with this kind of thing.

That's very noble. So what are you going to do? You see, instead of wasting your time on an internet forum complaining about a Government Agency watching what you do on the Internet, go and do something about it. I'm not being nasty, but really, what can anyone do. Just let them get on with it. Besides, do you really think they are interested in the crap we talk about and look at? No, the people they are after are the Terrorist groups and the real nut jobs. Not the average joe getting his jollies from 'Pornhub', or checking the football scores, or even debating this topic on a wargaming forum.

*shrugs*

 Mr. Burning wrote:

 Formosa wrote:


until people actually get off there lazy fat arses and actually do something about such things the governments of the world will keep getting away with this kind of thing.

It isn't laziness per se. We just have too much to loose to go about tearing down government.

I'll stick my neck out and say that An Arab Spring style uprising will not happen whilst we have a comfortable standard of living, food on the shelves and paracetamol for our foo foos. And we would need such an event.

Hell, Occupy would not have existed were it not for the availability of goods and services to keep them going.

The developed world just doesn't have it in them to force change.

Aren't you contradicting yourself? Social unrest would not occur unless conditions were too bad. The social unrest of occupy was only made possible because social conditions are good.

Occupy wasn't social unrest or anything close to it. It was just a show where children pretended that acting childish was fighting the power rather than being childish.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

It doesn't surprise me that people are angered by it. No-one expects to allow the government to open their post, tap their phone or search through their house without a legal process. Internet traffic searching is similar to these activities, but a lot easier.

But they're totally fine with Google and Facebook, et al, doing exactly that.

I live in a developed country and also to effect any real change would cause upheaval to my fairly comfortable life.

 sarpedons-right-hand wrote:
That's very noble. So what are you going to do? You see, instead of wasting your time on an internet forum complaining about a Government Agency watching what you do on the Internet, go and do something about it. I'm not being nasty, but really, what can anyone do. Just let them get on with it. Besides, do you really think they are interested in the crap we talk about and look at? No, the people they are after are the Terrorist groups and the real nut jobs. Not the average joe getting his jollies from 'Pornhub', or checking the football scores, or even debating this topic on a wargaming forum.

*shrugs*

Going after terrorists is all well and good, the problem is when they go after law-abiding citizens because of non-lawful reasons. The IRS scandal is a good example of using privileged information to unlawfully attack political opponents. If they set the filter for "vote tory" instead of "blow up country X", all manner of useful ammunition is sure to come their way. But yes, nothing will be done about it.

TOR is your friend, use it.

If you want some lols, send some gibberish emails to your friends, and get them to do the same. IF THEY ARE BEING INTERCEPTED.
They will spend many happy hrs trying to decode them, at great expense.

 sarpedons-right-hand wrote:
And yet if it had not been made public, no one would have been aware. What the government chooses to do with my internet traffic history is up to them. Fret not, unless you are planning on doing something illegal, you can still say and pretty much do what you like on the internet...

I'm going to continue to be blissfully unaware of what GCHQ is up to, because I have a job, a mortgage to pay and mouths to feed. Basically, I'm too damn busy to worry about a semi-shady Government department.

What your government chooses to do with your data is up to them, maybe. But they aren't my government, and I object to them spying on communications from within my country. I object more strongly to the Irish government collaborating with them, I should note.

Howard A. Treesong:
Go read up about abuses of state power in Northern Ireland if you want some examples.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-30296397
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Demetrius
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_loyalism#Collusion_with_the_security_forces

Forgive me if I am suspicious of the British government.