Any reason to give guardsmen a heavy flamer over flamer?

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**WonderAliceLand**

Been looking around the Astra Militarum (eeeeew, why not IG anymore?) codex and I am trying to find why people would give a heavy flamer to a guardsman over a flamer. The difference being S5 AP4 rather than the other way around. However the flamer is 5pts and the HF is 10pts. Paying double to give a guardsman that bonus is a little steep. Do you all find it worth it, ie. PCS with 3 Flamers and 1 HF for 55pts is worth it compared to a PCS with 4 Flamers for 50pts? Its an extra 10% cost-wise. Do you find it really pays off sometimes?

**koooaei**

Mixing flamers and heavy flamers is not great with the new shooting sequence as the shots are resolved separately. But if you pack something like plasmas or meltas and want to pack a flamer just in case, a single heavy flamer is reasonable.

**vipoid**

I quite like Heavy Flamers. I find that extra point of strength makes quite a bit of difference. And, whilst AP4 won't always be useful, when it is it will be pretty devastating.

In terms of picking them over normal flamers, it depends on the rest of the squad. e.g. sometimes I'll give a veteran or CCS 2 meltas, and also a heavy flamer for utility. In this case, with just a single flamer, I find the upgrade to be well worth it. You could consider it 'concentrating resources'. i.e. If I'm only having one flamer, I should probably go for the strongest one available.

On the other hand, if I'm putting multiple flamers in a unit, I'll always use ordinary ones. I don't think the Heavy Flamer is worth staggering their shooting - it seems like whichever flamer fires second will end up with slim pickings.

**WellSpokenMan**

If you have 5 points left over, but I wouldn't make it a priority.

**Mavnas**

The AP4 is a thing too depending on your meta.

A heavy kills 5/6ths of the Fire Warriors it touches, a reg flamer only 1/3. So really when frying cowardly Xenos troops hiding in cover, go heavy all the way.

**Nevelon**

Mavnas wrote:
The AP4 is a thing too depending on your meta.

A heavy kills 5/6ths of the Fire Warriors it touches, a reg flamer only 1/3. So really when frying cowardly Xenos troops hiding in cover, go heavy all the way.

Not just Xenos. HFs remain the leading cause of death for my SM scouts.

**vipoid**

My Storm Troopers and Grenadier Veterans aren't fond of them either.

**Big Blind Bill**

koooaei wrote:
Mixing flamers and heavy flamers is not great with the new shooting sequence as the shots are resolved separately.

Are they resolved seperately though? Multiple template rule in the BRB would suggest otherwise.

OP: the price upgrade from a flamer to heavy flamer is totally worth it. The ap4 is useful vs a whole range of targets, and str 5 make it better vs everything you ant to shoot flamers against.

**TheSilo**

Always heavy flamers, all the time.

The additional strength is always beneficial. The additional AP can crush when it needs to. The heavy flamer wrecks house against Orks, Tau, Necrons, Eldar, and IG. In fact, it wrecks house against anything that isn't marines. I almost never field vets or a ccs without one.

**Dassarri**

koooaei wrote:
Mixing flamers and heavy flamers is not great with the new shooting sequence as the shots are resolved separately. But if you pack something like plasmas or meltas and want to pack a flamer just in case, a single heavy flamer is reasonable.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/625722.page
That might not actually be true, depending on how you feel about this argument. The heavy flamer would be substantially better if it was the case.

**koooaei**

Oh, that's good to know. One more plus to HF.

**Zsolt**

Dassarri wrote:
koooaei wrote:
Mixing flamers and heavy flamers is not great with the new shooting sequence as the shots are resolved separately. But if you pack something like plasmas or meltas and want to pack a flamer just in case, a single heavy flamer is reasonable.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/625722.page
That might not actually be true, depending on how you feel about this argument. The heavy flamer would be substantially better if it was the case.

Did that thread come to a conclusion? I lost interest after a page. Another example of badly worded rules.

BTW AP4 wrecks everything below MEQ. There's a big difference between no save, and half of your troops are saved. S5 is also pretty bad for most infantry. On paper ofc.

**resipsa**

I would say overwatch, pure and simple, you get more hits with the heavy flamer in there on overwatch. I'd say a CCS would be a waste to use the heavy flamer given the increased BS of the CCS, but on a PCS? 4 flamers or 3 flamers and a heavy flamer would be worthwhile, in my opinion.

**koooaei**

That's a 1-use squad but oh, boy, it burns stuff to death if it gets there.

**Zsolt**

resipsa wrote:
I would say overwatch, pure and simple, you get more hits with the heavy flamer in there on overwatch. I'd say a CCS would be a waste to use the heavy flamer given the increased BS of the CCS, but on a PCS? 4 flamers or 3 flamers and a heavy flamer would be worthwhile, in my opinion.

Why do you get more hits with heavy flamer than regular flamer on overwatch?

**morganfreeman**

Zsolt wrote:
resipsa wrote:
I would say overwatch, pure and simple, you get more hits with the heavy flamer in there on overwatch. I'd say a CCS would be a waste to use the heavy flamer given the increased BS of the CCS, but on a PCS? 4 flamers or 3 flamers and a heavy flamer would be worthwhile, in my opinion.

Why do you get more hits with heavy flamer than regular flamer on overwatch?

I assume he means wounds - which is the truth. Charging a wall of three heavy flamers is.. going to give most things a very bad day.