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Nobody takes HBs anymore. So in order to fix that, I thought of the simple profile change from Heavy 3 to Heavy 4 - still not as effective as an Assaultcannon within 24" even without its rending, but definitely packs a bigger punch now for people to start considering it and is arguably on par with the Shuriken Cannon for the same points cost. This will also affect IG where HBs are the same price as Autocannons

And given how the Burst Cannon just went from Assault 3 to 4, I cant see why the HB cant undergo a similar change.

Thoughts?

Would be good but the heavy bolter has always been limited in use take it in tacs and well, you lack anti tank and your bolt guns or general infantry weapon take care of troops well enough.
But struggle against tanks monsters and heavy hitters.

I'm not sure this is a good idea. Heavy bolters are an anti infantry weapon, and infantry are already extremely easy to kill. There is a fine balance. Armies like imperial guard could spam heavy bolters for very little points. Small things like this could make the already difficult life of a trooper on the ground even more dangerous. People will start taking alternatives to basic infantry if they haven't already. I mean, people already take just minimum squads with no upgrades to unlock transports and fill troop qouta. Why make it worse.

To make the heavy bolter more attractive, the autocannon needs to be needed. Either:

Increase the price of an autocannon by 5/10 points.
Lower the strength to 6.
Lower the range to 24".

Why not just make it salvo 2/3 or something. It's gona be much more attractive for infantry like tactical squads.

I'd not increase 3 to 4 shots as HB is allready present on lots of vehicles. And i don't think we need even more anti-infantry as it is. We just need to make it appealing in some cases.

Pozy those are called Assault Cannons, we already have them as the intermediary of the two ironically.

Am I the only one bothered by the spent shell casings coming out of the Heavy Bolter? Bolt weapons fire miniaturized RPG rounds. Stubbers fire gas-propelled rounds akin to 19/20/21st Century tech.

I agree it should probably go to heavy 4. Really doesn't break anything and helps it keep up with other options better.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Am I the only one bothered by the spent shell casings coming out of the Heavy Bolter? Bolt weapons fire miniaturized RPG rounds. Stubbers fire gas-propelled rounds akin to 19/20/21st Century tech.

It's inconsistant as hell. Some sources will have bolters with casings while others won't. They really shouldn't, but whatever.

Cas. the shell casings falling out of bolters have bugged people since the bolter was first introduced as using caseless ammo in second edition. Never gonna change, never gonna stop.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Cas. the shell casings falling out of bolters have bugged people since the bolter was first introduced as using caseless ammo in second edition. Never gonna change, never gonna stop.

I know. Every time I see them I just let out a big sigh and shake my head.

As to the topic, heck yeah they should be Heavy 4. Though I would be a lot happier if they were Salvo 3/4. Would give me a reason to dust off my assembled HB Devs for my Crimson Fists.

 Quickjager wrote:
Pozy those are called Assault Cannons, we already have them as the intermediary of the two ironically.

No Jagger, I said 'either' meaning use one of the suggestions.

You cannot just buff a weapon, 7th has shown that to make one option better, another has to be nerfed (otherwise there will be power creep again).

+1 to salvo 2/3, It would give devastator squads a new option of being a mobile medium range/heavy(ish) fire unit and unlock interesting possibilities with drop pods, and make flamer/HB tac squads more mobile. In all fairness It's always kinda bugged me that marines cant fire HBs on the move in some form (i know snapfire now but still) it makes sense that they would be able to fire them somewhat accurately even with reduced rate of fire while moving, so 2 shots at 18" makes sense

Bobug wrote:
+1 to salvo 2/3, It would give devastator squads a new option of being a mobile medium range/heavy(ish) fire unit and unlock interesting possibilities with drop pods, and make flamer/HB tac squads more mobile. In all fairness It's always kinda bugged me that marines cant fire HBs on the move in some form (i know snapfire now but still) it makes sense that they would be able to fire them somewhat accurately even with reduced rate of fire while moving, so 2 shots at 18" makes sense

It's probably too meta-dependent as HB are considered average at best not cause it's 3 shots but rather cause it's s5 ap4 but i do see crimson fist or ultramarine dev squad in a rhino/droppod being nice.

It'd at least open some more opportunities. I'd fear such squad much more than a squad of gravcents since i run a footslogging horde.

What about salvo 3/3?

 Sir Arun wrote:
What about salvo 3/3?

Doesn't reward you enough for standing still, folks would just play them like Assault 3 weapons.

Heavy Bolters should get Salvo and Pinning 2/4 Salvo will make them worthwhile

 Bonachinonin wrote:
and infantry are already extremely easy to kill. There is a fine balance.

I think that might be the first time I've seen someone identify any kind of balance in Warhammer, let alone a fine one.

Edit; not to agree or disagree, just sayin.

Salvo 3/3 is too much as Rake said, it will make it pesudo assault weapon.
Salvo 2/3 pinning is where I think the point should stand.

Heck, just heavy 3 pinning will be a noticeable and fitting upgrade.

I agree, heavy 4 would be great, make it a little more worth the points.

Of course you're going to lack in an anti-tank roll if your squad is packing this as it's heavy weapon, you could take squads with Razorbacks with twin linked las cannons for the anti-tank roll.

When would Heavy Bolters be appropriate? I would want them where I'm facing a horde of Infantry type units, however, since we are comparing the Hvy3 vs a Hvy4 I'd say it would be worth the change and the current point cost would be more appropriate for the Hvy4.

e.earnshaw wrote:Would be good but the heavy bolter has always been limited in use take it in tacs and well, you lack anti tank and your bolt guns or general infantry weapon take care of troops well enough.
But struggle against tanks monsters and heavy hitters.

Bonachinonin wrote:I'm not sure this is a good idea. Heavy bolters are an anti infantry weapon, and infantry are already extremely easy to kill. There is a fine balance. Armies like imperial guard could spam heavy bolters for very little points. Small things like this could make the already difficult life of a trooper on the ground even more dangerous. People will start taking alternatives to basic infantry if they haven't already. I mean, people already take just minimum squads with no upgrades to unlock transports and fill troop qouta. Why make it worse.

koooaei wrote:I'd not increase 3 to 4 shots as HB is allready present on lots of vehicles. And i don't think we need even more anti-infantry as it is. We just need to make it appealing in some cases.

I thought this was going to be a really satisfying thread because of the above posts. I congratulate the posters for misleading very briefly.

I'm not sure there's anything terribly off with the heavy bolters stats. Its the cheap and cheerful heavy weapon. I think a related problem is cover saves are too generous since 6th. Obviously that doesn't exclusively effect heavy bolters, but the ease by which troops can get a 4++ does limit the advantage of AP4.

Something is wrong when an option is an "auto don't take"

When was the last time you saw heavy bolters except on vehicles that get them as extras or SoB rets?
Even the bolter specialists imperial fists dont think much of the heavy bolter.

It needs a little something extra in order to be a more viable choice.
And I support the path of increasing tactical utility, rather than pure power. everything is just getting pure power these days rather than doing special things.
Make it pinning. pinning is amazing when its all over the place, because if you force multiple checks-SOMETHING will fail. and not even marines with their annoying ATSKNF are immune.
Every pinning squad just needs to make a single wound to force a test-and a single enemy can be tested multiple times. its the most underrated crowd control mechanic in the game. saved me more than one game when a random pin went through at the right time.

I think Pinning is an appropriate if minor buff to make the Heavy Bolters more likely to be chosen.

Though I thing the Pinning / Suppresion / Go To Ground mechanics could use a bit of a buff / tweaking in general as well.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Something is wrong when an option is an "auto don't take"

When was the last time you saw heavy bolters except on vehicles that get them as extras or SoB rets?
Even the bolter specialists imperial fists dont think much of the heavy bolter.

When was the last time you saw HBs on a vehicle if it had the option to take something else in its place? (Looks over at his LS Typhoons with their HBs...oh)

I do agree that it does need something special besides more shots. It is a bigger, faster-firing bolter. What does that translate into? It already is higher strength, lower AP and fires three shots instead of two. Honestly, I think the only thing that can be done to make it more attractive is to decrease its cost by five points (and decrease the cost of any vehicle that has it standard by five points as well).

Eradicator with HB is great.

I take it the consensus of this thread is:

Heavy Bolter:

Salvo 2/3, 5 points
or
Salvo 2/3 pinning, 10 points

personally I'd go with the former as the latter can imbalance vehicles

 Sir Arun wrote:


And given how the Burst Cannon just went from Assault 3 to 4, I cant see why the HB cant undergo a similar change.

Just to point out, the change to the Burst Cannon was in part probably a response to the fact that the model has 4 barrels but the stat line had only 3 shots. Also, the Burst Cannon has half the range and 1worse AP. So its not a strictly comparable weapon.

I do think the Heavy Bolter needs an adjust, personally I'm in the Salvo 2/3 camp myself. Giving Tactical Squads and Scouts an option to move and fire their heavy weapon is great. It won't unbalance the vehicle bolters, and Devastators can continue to focus on heavy anti-vehicle options. Not all those help my Wolves so much, but podding Long Fangs would be fun.

Allow any Chaos model with access to heavy bolters to also have the option to purchase Malefic Ammunition. Points for this purchase are up for debate but should be kept inline to IA13 price averages for Malefic Ammo.

Jefffar wrote:

I do think the Heavy Bolter needs an adjust, personally I'm in the Salvo 2/3 camp myself. Giving Tactical Squads and Scouts an option to move and fire their heavy weapon is great. It won't unbalance the vehicle bolters, and Devastators can continue to focus on heavy anti-vehicle options. Not all those help my Wolves so much, but podding Long Fangs would be fun.

You get an extra dead dire avenger, which you can already kill very easily with bolters, and you give up the chance to expand your abilities beyond s4/s5 anti-infantry. It's still bad against the marines you fight 40 - 65 percent of the time

People are still going to do two things:

a) not take tactical squads.

b) take multi-melta, missile launcher, or plasma cannon.

Like, any competitive player is going to tell you, taking s5 ap4 shots is never going to happen as long as there is the option for getting something s7 plus, or ap1/2/3. You could make your salvo heavy bolter free, or even negative points, but since people have already paid the points for the unit it's on, they are going to want that upgrade to be something useful, something other than the ability to bypass armor on Fire Warriors.


also, you're talking about move and fire for this:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/Product/AlternativeFW/xlarge/HeavyBolt2c.jpg

That's two guys, dragging a wheeled carriage, backwards. Those guys are not firing salvo. These guys. The guys with this gun.


Heavy stubbers, maybe heavy stubbers could have salvo. They have shoulder stocks.

The stat line of the heavy bolter just has no useful sweet spot in 40K. It hasn't for a long time, actually.