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Since the words on unwieldy have changed a bit, can anyone explain how someone wielding a powerfist works with quickening? Does quickening boost the initiative at all, or is it still at I1? Can anyone point to the rules on why one would trump the other?

If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values. For example, if a model with Strength 4 has both ‘+1 Strength’ and ‘double Strength’, its final Strength is 9 (4×2=8, 8+1=9). If a model with Strength 4 has both ‘+1 Strength’ and ‘Strength 8’, its final Strength is 8 (ignore +1 Strength and set it at 8).

Unwieldy is always a set modifier, which means it always comes last.

It actually has nothing to do with modifiers, as Unwieldy does not modify a model's initiative characteristic. Unwieldy says models with it pile in and attack at initiative step 1. It does not change their initiative to 1.

So the answer is: Quickening would still give +D3 initiative to the affected models, but it would not affect which initiative step they fight in. Due to Unwieldy they will still fight at Iniative step 1.

Bojazz wrote:
It actually has nothing to do with modifiers, as Unwieldy does not modify a model's initiative characteristic. Unwieldy says models with it pile in and attack at initiative step 1. It does not change their initiative to 1.

So the answer is: Quickening would still give +D3 initiative to the affected models, but it would not affect which initiative step they fight in. Due to Unwieldy they will still fight at Iniative step 1.

In other words, Unwieldy modifies the model's Initiative when the model fights with the weapon with that special rule. So yes, it is a set modifier to the model's Initiative but it only applies when the rules say that it does.

The model's initiative value remains untouched and unmodified by Unwieldy. Unwieldy just ignores the model's initiative and forces it to fight at initiative step 1.

Functionally, yes, it is the same as if it set the model's initiative to 1 just for the fight subphase. But it does not actually do this. This is an important distinction, because if the model is ever affected by a special rule that *sets* it's initiative to, say, 10 then Unwieldy would still force the model to fight at initiative step 1, because it is not a characteristic modifier.

The model's Initiative is modified for Pile In moves and when the model attacks in close combat. Just because it doesn't change its Initiative at other times does not mean its not a modifier.

Unwieldy does not modify the model's Initiative characteristic at ANY time. Not even during the fight sub-phase. It is not a modifier. Just like a rule saying "This model's shooting attacks hit on a 2+" does not set the model's BS characteristic to 5.

For instance if a powerfist model is holding a custom objective that has a rule that states "models holding this stimpack stockpile objective have initiative 10 during the fight subphase" - The powerfist model would STILL fight at initiative 1 because Unwieldy states "models with this rule fight at iniative step 1". It does not state "models with this rule have initiative 1 during the fight subphase".

the most important distinction:

Slaanesh lord with a powerfist fighting guardsmen.

Guardsmen go first, as the lord fights at initiative one.

lord fights back, and wins the combat.

the guardsmen run.

The lord rolls for his sweeping advance with his initiative, which has not been set to one, as it is unmodified. this means the lord is almost certain to catch the guardsmen.

That's why it matters if it's a modifier or not.

Yes, it does. It modifies it when the model makes it Pile In moves and when he fights, or are you saying that he uses the Initiative listed on his profile?

If you're using a model's characteristic and its not exactly as it is in its profile then its been modified. Its that simple.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 some bloke wrote:
the most important distinction:

Slaanesh lord with a powerfist fighting guardsmen.

Guardsmen go first, as the lord fights at initiative one.

lord fights back, and wins the combat.

the guardsmen run.

The lord rolls for his sweeping advance with his initiative, which has not been set to one, as it is unmodified. this means the lord is almost certain to catch the guardsmen.

That's why it matters if it's a modifier or not.

Again, where do the rules say that a modifier must change the characteristic for everything? Unwieldy modifies the Initiative characteristic for exactly what it says it does.

If you're using a model's characteristic and its not exactly as it is in its profile then its been modified. Its that simple.

You are not using the model's initiative characteristic. You are ignoring it, and doing what Unwieldy says to do.

Unwieldy references a time, not a value. Initiative step 1 is a time during the fight sub-phase. It forces the model to fight at that time. It doesn't touch the model's profile, the model can be initiative 10 and still strike at initiative step 1.

Where do the rules say that Unwieldy affects a model's initiative value at all? By your logic, Fleshbane gives a model or weapon strength 12 with no chance of instant death since it wounds everything on a 2+, and there's no way you can do that unless you have strength 12. Also AP2 weapons would modify it's target's profile's armour characteristic to "-". It also does not do this. Functionally, it is the same overall effect in most circumstances, but this is NOT how it works.

Unwieldy - page 174:
"A model attacking with this weapon Piles In and Fights at Initiative step 1."

Absolutely no mention of the wielder's profile, or initiative value. Compare this to something that actually changes the wielder's initiative value during the fight subphase.

Tyranid Lashwhips.
"A model attacking with this weapon has a +3 bonus to its Initiative during the Fight sub-phase."
Necron Whip coils.
"Any enemy models in base contact with a model with whip coils at the beginning of the fight sub-phase count their Initiative value as 1 until the end of the assault phase, regardless of their actual Initiative value"

See the difference in the wording? If Unwieldy modified the initiative value of the wielder, it would directly say so. It does not, so it doesn't.

Yes, you're using the model's Initiative characteristic. It has been set at Initiative 1. It never says anything about ignoring the model's Initiative.

Please tell me where it says it has been set at Initiative 1.

Oh God, who the hell cares?
We all agree that an Unwieldy weapon always strikes at I1 no matter what other modifiers are in play.

Actually Ghaz would disagree with the "no matter what other modifiers are in play" part. Since he considers Unwieldy to be a modifier, other "set" modifiers would conflict with it.
X rule, perhaps some terrain with a custom datasheet, says models in this terrain have their initiative set to 5 during the fight sub-phase.
Unwieldy says (according to Ghaz) the wielder's initiative is set to 1.
What do?

 Ghaz wrote:
Yes, it does. It modifies it when the model makes it Pile In moves and when he fights, or are you saying that he uses the Initiative listed on his profile?

He doesn't use the initiative in his profile. But his initiative is not modified. He just uses a different initiative.

If I ride my bike to work today, my car is still the same car it was when I drove it yesterday. I'm just not using it today.

If you're using a model's characteristic ...

You're not.

From the rules for Unwieldy:

A model attacking with this weapon Piles In and fights at Initiative step 1, unless it is a Monstrous creature or a Walker

Nothing is stated about how this change to the model's Initiative characteristic occurs, so we use the one rule provided for dealing with such a situation.

From 'Modifiers' in the 'Models & Units' section of the rules:

Certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a model's characteristics positively or negatively by adding to it... subtracting from it... multiplying it,...or even setting its value...

Unwieldy sets the model's Initiative characteristic to 1 when it comes to piling in and fighting. You're trying to make up a process that's has no support in the written rules while at the same time trying to dismiss a rule that actually covers the situation at hand.

You're the one making things up here by applying rules from a completely separate section of the rulebook to a rule that does not need them. Unwieldy does not need further rules on how to use it. It says exactly what it does. It forces a model to attack and pile in at a certain initiative step without needing to alter the model's initiative or use modifiers.

Nothing is stated about how AP2 weapons ignore armour saves, yet we don't assume that they reduce the target's armour characteristic to "-". We are only told that the enemy does not take an armour save against it.

Similarly, we are told that a model attacking with an unwieldy weapon attacks at the initiative 1 step. We do not need to know how it happens or give extra effects to the rule in order for it to make more sense to us, we simply follow the rule. And the rule says nothing about modifying characteristics. You are adding that bit yourself, which is not following the rules.

Unwieldy sets the model's Initiative characteristic to 1 when it comes to piling in and fighting

It really doesn't. nowhere does it say that it does this. You're making that part up.

No. Please provide actual rules to back up your claims instead of making baseless claims that somebody is making something up. The only rules that would allow a model to use a different characteristic value than what is in his profile is the aforementioned 'Modifiers' rule. Any other way of changing the characteristic values has no rules support.

Make sure you actually have rules to back up your claims that somebody is making up rules, because your position requires you to make up a lot more than what your falsely claiming I'm making up.

 Ghaz wrote:
From the rules for Unwieldy:

A model attacking with this weapon Piles In and fights at Initiative step 1, unless it is a Monstrous creature or a Walker

Nothing is stated about how this change to the model's Initiative characteristic occurs,...

...because the model's initiative characteristic doesn't change.

The model's initiative is still whatever it normally is. It just fights at the Initiative 1 step, because of Unwieldy.


You're taking '...fights at Initiative step 1...' to mean '...has their Initiative reduced to 1...' ... They're not the same thing.


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 Ghaz wrote:
No. Please provide actual rules to back up your claims instead of making baseless claims that somebody is making something up.

You're not going to get a rule that says that a rule that doesn't say to change the model's initiative doesn't mean that you should change their initiative characteristic...

The only rules that would allow a model to use a different characteristic value than what is in his profile is the aforementioned 'Modifiers' rule.

Or, you know, the one that says to use a different characteristic value than what is in his profile...


You just quoted the rules support for that.

Seriously. We've provided rules quotes, comparisons to similar circumstances that don't make sense following your line of reasoning, provided rules that do what you're describing in order to point out the differences in the wording, and all you've said in return is essentially "No! It has to be a modifier because it's different than what normally happens!"

Also, my claims were not baseless.

unwieldy wrote:A model attacking with this weapon Piles In and fights at Initiative step 1, unless it is a Monstrous creature or a Walker

Ghaz wrote:Unwieldy sets the model's Initiative characteristic to 1 when it comes to piling in and fighting

^see? you added that bit yourself, unwieldy says no such thing.

 insaniak wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
From the rules for Unwieldy:

A model attacking with this weapon Piles In and fights at Initiative step 1, unless it is a Monstrous creature or a Walker

Nothing is stated about how this change to the model's Initiative characteristic occurs,...

...because the model's initiative characteristic doesn't change.

The model's initiative is still whatever it normally is. It just fights at the Initiative 1 step, because of Unwieldy.

Except as I've noted, you've not provided any evidence to support your claims that Unwieldy isn't a modifier. We have exactly one rule that allows us to change a model's characteristic and that is the aforementioned 'Modifiers' rule. You're ignoring the principle of KISS and trying to make multiple changes that break the rules without clear evidence to back you up.

It fights at Initiative 1 because its Initiative is modified 1) when it piles in and 2) when it fights. It is changed for those two purposes. It is as equally supported by the rules for Unwieldy as your position and breaks less rules.

 Ghaz wrote:
Except as I've noted, you've not provided any evidence to support your claims that Unwieldy isn't a modifier.

That's because you had already posted it.

We have exactly one rule that allows us to change a model's characteristic and that is the aforementioned 'Modifiers' rule.

Yup. And Unwieldy doesn't care, because it doesn't tell us to change the model's Initiative characteristic.

You're ignoring the principle of KISS and trying to make multiple changes that break the rules without clear evidence to back you up.

I'm not trying to change anything. Unwieldy says for the model to fight at the Initiative 1 step. So I'm assuming that the model fights at the Initiative 1 step.

You're trying to add a rule that says that a model fighting at the Initiative 1 step has their Initiative reduced to 1 even though the rules don't actually say to do make that change.

It fights at Initiative 1 because its Initiative is modified 1) when it piles in and 2) when it fights.

No, it fights at Initiative 1 because Unwieldy says it fights at Initiative 1.

The rule does not say to modify the model's Initiative.

Ghaz... no one is easily able to post rules saying Unwieldy DOESN'T change the model's Initiative value because it simply isn't in the Rulebook.

As has been said a million times in a million threads on this forum, this is a permissive rule set. We're told what we CAN do, not what we CAN'T.

Unwieldy says the model fights at Initiative Step 1. It does not say to change the model's Initiative to 1. You would still use the model's normal Initiative for Sweeping Advances and any Hit and Run tests, as examples.

Until such time as you are able to post an actual rules citation showing that the Initiative is changed and NOT that the model fights at Initiative Step 1, you're adding things to the rules that aren't there.

 Kriswall wrote:
Ghaz... no one is easily able to post rules saying Unwieldy DOESN'T change the model's Initiative value because it simply isn't in the Rulebook.

Which is what I've said. There is no definitive answer either way. So if there's no definitive answer, why are we ignoring the rules that tell us how to change a model's characteristics? Shouldn't it be played as a modifier unless we have definitive proof its not since those are the only rules we've been given for the situation?

Why do you think the model's characteristic is changed? Where in the rules for Unwieldy does it even mention that?

It should not be played as a modifier since if you have another set modifier that is higher, you can game Unwieldy and attack above Initiative 1.

Ghaz, you need to provide rules to support your position that it is a modifier. If you can't then, it isn't a modifier, no matter how much simpler it may seem to make the rule.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
Ghaz... no one is easily able to post rules saying Unwieldy DOESN'T change the model's Initiative value because it simply isn't in the Rulebook.

Which is what I've said. There is no definitive answer either way. So if there's no definitive answer, why are we ignoring the rules that tell us how to change a model's characteristics? Shouldn't it be played as a modifier unless we have definitive proof its not since those are the only rules we've been given for the situation?

Well, we have definitive proof that the Unwieldy rule doesn't modify Initiative insomuch as nothing in the Unwieldy rule tells us to modify the model's Initiative. We are told that the model fights at Initiative Step 1, but we are never told to change the model's Initiative to 1. We aren't ignoring a rule. It's simply not there.

Nothing about fighting at Initiative Step 1 requires that the model be Initiative 1. Model's can fight at Initiative Step 1 if they've charged into Difficult Terrain OR if they're wielding an Unwieldy weapon, etc. Do you also think that charging into Difficult Terrain is a modifier that sets a model's Initiative to 1? After all, we're not being told HOW to fight at Step 1, only that we have to fight at Step 1.

 Ghaz wrote:
Which is what I've said. There is no definitive answer either way.

There is a dfinitive answer. It's not a modifier, because it doesn't modify the model's initiative.

So if there's no definitive answer, why are we ignoring the rules that tell us how to change a model's characteristics?

Because it's not a modifier.

Shouldn't it be played as a modifier unless we have definitive proof its not since those are the only rules we've been given for the situation?

Since it's not a modifier, no, there is no reason to play it as one.

You simply have the model fight at the Initiative 1 step regardless of their actual Initiative.

The simplest solution in this particular example is to just follow the rules that actually apply to the situation. There is no reason whatsoever to add rules to treat it as a modifier.

 Kriswall wrote:
Well, we have definitive proof that the Unwieldy rule doesn't modify Initiative insomuch as nothing in the Unwieldy rule tells us to modify the model's Initiative. We are told that the model fights at Initiative Step 1, but we are never told to change the model's Initiative to 1. We aren't ignoring a rule. It's simply not there.

Except it doesn't tell us why the model fights at Initiative 1. Does it fight at Initiative 1 because it's Initiative has been changed? Does it fight at Initiative 1 because its Initiative has been modified? Without knowing that why we are simply deciding not to use the only rules provided that cover this situation without a clear answer that we should do so.

Repeating the same option as two different options isn't helpful. The reason they fight at Initiative 1 is because we are told they fight at Initiative 1, it's as simple as that, the Model's Initiative is never changed/modified.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
Well, we have definitive proof that the Unwieldy rule doesn't modify Initiative insomuch as nothing in the Unwieldy rule tells us to modify the model's Initiative. We are told that the model fights at Initiative Step 1, but we are never told to change the model's Initiative to 1. We aren't ignoring a rule. It's simply not there.

Except it doesn't tell us why the model fights at Initiative 1. Does it fight at Initiative 1 because it's Initiative has been changed? Does it fight at Initiative 1 because its Initiative has been modified? Without knowing that why we are simply deciding not to use the only rules provided that cover this situation without a clear answer that we should do so.

We know EXACTLY why the model fights at Initiative 1. It's because they are fighting with an Unwieldy weapon. That's it. There is no hidden meaning or secret reason. It's a very simple and straightforward thing. To be a modifier, the Unwieldy rule would need wording telling us to "set the model's Initiative to 1" or similar. It's simply not there.