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Here's an idea I got: What if you could use soldiers from history in 40K? That idea gave me these statlines, please give me your own if you have some:

WWII US Rifleman
WS2 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I4 A1 Ld7 Sv 5+
Wargear: M1 Garand - Range - 24" Str 3 AP 6 Rapid Fire

Spartan in MJOLNIR Armour
WS4 BS3 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 Ld9 Sv 4+
Wargear: Battle Rifle - Range - 36" Str 4 AP 4 Assault 2, Twin-Linked - Magnum - Range - 12" Str 4 AP 5 Pistol

Spartan Warrior
WS6 BS4 S4 T5 I5 A3 Ld10 Sv 6+
Wargear: Spartan Shield - 5+ Invulnerable Safe - Spear - Str +1 AP 6 Melee - Throwing Spear - Range - 24" Str 4 AP 5 Assault 1, One Use Only

Got any more? Post 'em!

The Battle Rifle actually has a worse muzzle velocity and effective range than an M16, which itself is worse than the Lasgun just by the damage they cause to a human target.

A Battle Rifle would probably be Range 18, Str2, AP- Rapidfire.

The M1 Garand would probably have roughly the same stopping power as a lasgun. So Str3 and AP-, but it would only be range 18 and assault 1 as it lacks a full auto function.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The Battle Rifle actually has a worse muzzle velocity and effective range than an M16, which itself is worse than the Lasgun just by the damage they cause to a human target.

A Battle Rifle would probably be Range 18, Str2, AP- Rapidfire.

The M1 Garand would probably have roughly the same stopping power as a lasgun. So Str3 and AP-, but it would only be range 18 and assault 1 as it lacks a full auto function.

By rapid fire, I meant that an M1 Garand can fire pretty fast if you have a good trigger finger.

I think this is hard it's a bit abstract and the 40k fluff isn't necessarily accurately represented in the rules. Saying that, I think your ratings are a bit over the top.

Why does the rifleman get I4? The Spartan Warrior has stats that suggest it would crush a Space Marine yet a Space Marine would dwarf the Spartan. Look at some of the more elite units in Fantasy for a better idea.

ryuken87 wrote:
I think this is hard it's a bit abstract and the 40k fluff isn't necessarily accurately represented in the rules. Saying that, I think your ratings are a bit over the top.

Why does the rifleman get I4? The Spartan Warrior has stats that suggest it would crush a Space Marine yet a Space Marine would dwarf the Spartan. Look at some of the more elite units in Fantasy for a better idea.

Well, I think a normal human can move pretty fast compared to a Space Marine, although the fluff says something else.

 Matthew wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
The Battle Rifle actually has a worse muzzle velocity and effective range than an M16, which itself is worse than the Lasgun just by the damage they cause to a human target.

A Battle Rifle would probably be Range 18, Str2, AP- Rapidfire.

The M1 Garand would probably have roughly the same stopping power as a lasgun. So Str3 and AP-, but it would only be range 18 and assault 1 as it lacks a full auto function.

By rapid fire, I meant that an M1 Garand can fire pretty fast if you have a good trigger finger.

Yes, but the Rapid Fire special rule represents small arms that are both semi and full auto. You are firing Semi at over half range, and full auto at under half range.

That spartan statline is insane. Beyond Magnus ver Magnuson and his competition, Hercules, and Samson, I don't think any historical (or mythical) human merits more than a 3 strength. In fact, most of the feats done by them could be accomplished with a 4. MAYBE not some of Herc's, as he did have to hold up the WORLD for Atlas for a short time, so that's a thing...but hey, that's mythology for ya.

At the same time, I highly doubt any human-turned-model is more than T3.

They can throw a spear as far as most infantry guns fire? really?

Not even going to get into the plain old shield being able to stop a lascannon.

niv-mizzet wrote:
That spartan statline is insane. Beyond Magnus ver Magnuson and his competition, Hercules, and Samson, I don't think any historical (or mythical) human merits more than a 3 strength. In fact, most of the feats done by them could be accomplished with a 4. MAYBE not some of Herc's, as he did have to hold up the WORLD for Atlas for a short time, so that's a thing...but hey, that's mythology for ya.

At the same time, I highly doubt any human-turned-model is more than T3.

They can throw a spear as far as most infantry guns fire? really?

Not even going to get into the plain old shield being able to stop a lascannon.

Yeah, I just wanted him to be a badass with no save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I based the Spartan statline on300, awful movie, badass soldiers.

Wehrmacht Infantryman

WS: 3 BS: 3 S: 3 T: 3 W: 1 A:1 I: 3 LD: 7 SV: -

Wargear:
Frag Grenades
Kar98k

Special Rules:
Individual Initiative


Options:
May trade his Kar98k for one of the following:
MP40: 1 pt
M1 Garand: Free
STG44: 5 pts
MG42 and a P38 pistol: 10 pts
Panzerschrek: 10 pts

May take any of the following:
Panzerfaust: 5 pts
AT Grenade: 1 pt

Kar98k
S: 3 AP: - 24" Rapid Fire

M1 Garand:
S: 3 AP: - 18" Assault 2

MP40
S: 3 AP- 12" Assault 2

STG44
S: 3 AP: - 30" Rapid Fire

MG42
S: 4 AP: - 36" Heavy 3

Special Rules:
Individual Initiative:
When the Sergeant is removed as a casualty you may elect to remove a non-character model in the squad instead on a successful leadership test. This represents another soldier stepping up to take his place.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The Battle Rifle actually has a worse muzzle velocity and effective range than an M16, which itself is worse than the Lasgun just by the damage they cause to a human target.

A Battle Rifle would probably be Range 18, Str2, AP- Rapidfire.

The M1 Garand would probably have roughly the same stopping power as a lasgun. So Str3 and AP-, but it would only be range 18 and assault 1 as it lacks a full auto function.

S2 to 3 is what I agree on.
But if we look at the armour from 40k, I think those weapons should have AP5 or 6.

 Matthew wrote:
Spartan Warrior
WS6 BS4 S4 T5 I5 A3 Ld10 Sv 6+
Wargear: Spartan Shield - 5+ Invulnerable Safe - Spear - Str +1 AP 6 Melee - Throwing Spear - Range - 24" Str 4 AP 5 Assault 1, One Use Only

I'd put them at:
WS4, BS3, S3, T3, A2, Ld7, Sv5+
Inv-saves are something I would never give a historical soldier, because nothing can stop a rocket

Kangodo wrote:

Inv-saves are something I would never give a historical soldier, because nothing can stop a rocket

Just call it an Epic Beard save

My rules for a standard soldier now:
WS: 3
BS: 3
S: 3
T: 3
W: 1
I: 3
A: 1
Ld: 7
Sv: (Either a 5+ or 6+. More likely 6+)

CCW
Rifle
Range: 24"
S: 2
AP: -
Type: Rapid Fire

And that's our best. I'm for the belief that 40k is horribly more powerful than we can ever hope to match.

The problem with stating any firearm as S:2 is that it is basically saying that we can punch harder than a rifle can hit. Even though Lasguns are significantly more powerful than any modern day firearm we still have to rate modern guns as S: 3 due to the way 40k's stat system scales.

Strength isn't just total physical strength. Its also an indicator of how well it can cause damage.

It probably does make a little more sense to make them Str3. At this low end the system really fails to show measurable differences. Strength values do represent bands of strength and not a hard number.

Spartan Warrior
WS6 BS4 S4 T5 I5 A3 Ld10 Sv 6+
Wargear: Spartan Shield - 5+ Invulnerable Safe - Spear - Str +1 AP 6 Melee - Throwing Spear - Range - 24" Str 4 AP 5 Assault 1, One Use Only

You can actually get the stats for most historical warriors from Warhammer Ancient battles so I would go with something like this:

Greek Hoplite - the warriors of the city states were not actually that different - Sparta had a awesome reputation but was by no means invinicible or indeed unique in its warriors
WS4 BS4 S3 T4 W1, I4 A1 Ld8 Sv 6+, Stubborn,
Wargear: Sword, Spear, Shield (*)- 5+ armour save in close combat,

Veteran Roman Legionaire
WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1, I4 A1 Ld8 Sv 5+, Stubborn,
Wargear: Sword, Spear, Shield (*)- 4+ armour save in close combat, Pilum, Range 12", Assault 1, S4, AP6

Scythian (Saka) Noble Cavalry - male or female
WS4 BS4 S3 T3 I4 A1 Ld8 Sv 5+, Cavalry, Hit and Run,
Wargear: Sword, Spear, Shield (*)- 4+ armour save in close combat, Compound Bow, Range 24", Assault 1, S3, AP6

Samuari
WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1, I4 A1 Ld9 Sv 5+,
Wargear: Katana (AP5)(*), Bow, Range 30", Rapid Fire, S3, AP6

Viking Raider
WS4 BS3 S3 T4 W1, I4 A1 Ld7 Sv 6+, Furious Charge,,
Wargear: Sword, Spear, Shield (*)- 5+ armour save in close combat, Axe, Range 8", Assault 1, S3, AP6

(*) counts as two close combat weapons

Me:
WS:1 BS:1 S:1 T:1 W:1 I:1 A:1 Ld:1 Sv:-
Wargear: Fists, cc, S1, AP-

 Mr Morden wrote:

Spartan Warrior
WS6 BS4 S4 T5 I5 A3 Ld10 Sv 6+
Wargear: Spartan Shield - 5+ Invulnerable Safe - Spear - Str +1 AP 6 Melee - Throwing Spear - Range - 24" Str 4 AP 5 Assault 1, One Use Only

You can actually get the stats for most historical warriors from Warhammer Ancient battles so I would go with something like this:

Greek Hoplite - the warriors of the city states were not actually that different - Sparta had a awesome reputation but was by no means invinicible or indeed unique in its warriors
WS4 BS4 S3 T4 W1, I4 A1 Ld8 Sv 6+, Stubborn,
Wargear: Sword, Spear, Shield (*)- 5+ armour save in close combat,

Veteran Roman Legionaire
WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1, I4 A1 Ld8 Sv 5+, Stubborn,
Wargear: Sword, Spear, Shield (*)- 4+ armour save in close combat, Pilum, Range 12", Assault 1, S4, AP6

Scythian (Saka) Noble Cavalry - male or female
WS4 BS4 S3 T3 I4 A1 Ld8 Sv 5+, Cavalry, Hit and Run,
Wargear: Sword, Spear, Shield (*)- 4+ armour save in close combat, Compound Bow, Range 24", Assault 1, S3, AP6

Samuari
WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1, I4 A1 Ld9 Sv 5+,
Wargear: Katana (AP5)(*), Bow, Range 30", Rapid Fire, S3, AP6

Viking Raider
WS4 BS3 S3 T4 W1, I4 A1 Ld7 Sv 6+, Furious Charge,,
Wargear: Sword, Spear, Shield (*)- 5+ armour save in close combat, Axe, Range 8", Assault 1, S3, AP6

(*) counts as two close combat weapons

I personally do not believe that any group that we discuss here (maybe except ninjas) could possibly have a Toughness over 3 or Initiative over 3. Genetically enhanced Astartes are T4. There is no reason why a mortal man with no modification coud come close. Catachans, who spend their whole lives on a planet deadlier than anything these groups have ever come against, are only T3.
I'm also a wee bit against the idea of anything with an AP value here, especially the bows.
I'm all for making 3 the maximum stat for all of these groups, given the scaling I prefer to use for human characters.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Spartan Warrior
WS6 BS4 S4 T5 I5 A3 Ld10 Sv 6+
Wargear: Spartan Shield - 5+ Invulnerable Safe - Spear - Str +1 AP 6 Melee - Throwing Spear - Range - 24" Str 4 AP 5 Assault 1, One Use Only

You can actually get the stats for most historical warriors from Warhammer Ancient battles so I would go with something like this:

Greek Hoplite - the warriors of the city states were not actually that different - Sparta had a awesome reputation but was by no means invinicible or indeed unique in its warriors
WS4 BS4 S3 T4 W1, I4 A1 Ld8 Sv 6+, Stubborn,
Wargear: Sword, Spear, Shield (*)- 5+ armour save in close combat,

Veteran Roman Legionaire
WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1, I4 A1 Ld8 Sv 5+, Stubborn,
Wargear: Sword, Spear, Shield (*)- 4+ armour save in close combat, Pilum, Range 12", Assault 1, S4, AP6

Scythian (Saka) Noble Cavalry - male or female
WS4 BS4 S3 T3 I4 A1 Ld8 Sv 5+, Cavalry, Hit and Run,
Wargear: Sword, Spear, Shield (*)- 4+ armour save in close combat, Compound Bow, Range 24", Assault 1, S3, AP6

Samuari
WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1, I4 A1 Ld9 Sv 5+,
Wargear: Katana (AP5)(*), Bow, Range 30", Rapid Fire, S3, AP6

Viking Raider
WS4 BS3 S3 T4 W1, I4 A1 Ld7 Sv 6+, Furious Charge,,
Wargear: Sword, Spear, Shield (*)- 5+ armour save in close combat, Axe, Range 8", Assault 1, S3, AP6

(*) counts as two close combat weapons

I personally do not believe that any group that we discuss here (maybe except ninjas) could possibly have a Toughness over 3 or Initiative over 3. Genetically enhanced Astartes are T4. There is no reason why a mortal man with no modification coud come close. Catachans, who spend their whole lives on a planet deadlier than anything these groups have ever come against, are only T3.
I'm also a wee bit against the idea of anything with an AP value here, especially the bows.
I'm all for making 3 the maximum stat for all of these groups, given the scaling I prefer to use for human characters.

Hmm I'd avoid Ninja's - I don't see why they would have s or t above 3. :0 But then I like the Legend of the Five Rings versions.............

Otherwise - yeah put it that way probably right - although would argue that Catachan's are also woefully understated - I use the above and use this for them:

WS4 BS4 S3 T4 W1, I4 A1 Ld9, Stubborn, Furious Charge,

 Matthew wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
The Battle Rifle actually has a worse muzzle velocity and effective range than an M16, which itself is worse than the Lasgun just by the damage they cause to a human target.

A Battle Rifle would probably be Range 18, Str2, AP- Rapidfire.

The M1 Garand would probably have roughly the same stopping power as a lasgun. So Str3 and AP-, but it would only be range 18 and assault 1 as it lacks a full auto function.

By rapid fire, I meant that an M1 Garand can fire pretty fast if you have a good trigger finger.

Historically there were some soldiers that modified their M1's to fire in full-auto. IIRC There was a specific part in the trigger assembly that could be cut / shaved off to make the M1 a full auto rifle.

 Great White wrote:
Me:
WS:1 BS:1 S:1 T:1 W:1 I:1 A:1 Ld:1 Sv:-
Wargear: Fists, cc, S1, AP-

You could still kill a Terminator with that.

Even in the future of 40k there are still regular genetically unmodified humans. The standard Stats of an IG solider would cover most soldiers from history.

S3, T3, I3, W1 should all remain constant imo. Special rules might change this - a phalanx giving +1 toughness on the front facing for example, but for the base stats these should suffice.

WS, BS, A, & LD are all variable.

WS/BS would probably range from 2 (civilians like IG conscripts) to 4 being the most elite troops. WS/BS 5 Would be practically unheard amongst regular troops, legendary figures like kensai might have it.

A would usually be 1, though I could see units like viking berserkers having more. Again special rules like rage/rampage might cover it.

LD is the only stat I believe that can match the upper 40k limits. Fear is a relative concept, an IG guardsman facing down chaos terminators has just as much to fear as a medieval peasant facing down a heavy cavalry charge.
For this reason I think the standard range seen in 40k would be adequate. Anything from LD3-10 could be reasonably expected.

The real problem with historical adaptation of 40k is with the weapons and armour, rather than the people.

The difference between a bow and arrow and a bolt action rifle is very apparent in real life, however in a 40k weapon table, with weapons ranging from rocks up to vindicator shells being represented by a simple 1-10 strength scale, the difference between them is proportionately so small that it becomes difficult to keep them relative to each other,

Modern day armor will probably be sub-flak level (6+) and guns under lasguns (S2AP-)

And no, it does not mean that "I punch harder than a gunshot", it means that stabbing someone repeatedly in the stomach or swinging a crowbar at him is deadlier than a bullet (and in reality it is, it usually takes a few bullets to kill someone.)

 BoomWolf wrote:
Modern day armor will probably be sub-flak level (6+) and guns under lasguns (S2AP-)

And no, it does not mean that "I punch harder than a gunshot", it means that stabbing someone repeatedly in the stomach or swinging a crowbar at him is deadlier than a bullet (and in reality it is, it usually takes a few bullets to kill someone.)

Depending on the size and make of the bullet.
A lead .45 round is deadlier than a FMJ 9mm round.

But yeah, melee kills are pretty brutal, and it's easier to make sure someone is dead up close than far away.

Naturally not all bullets are born equal, but we can also agree that lasguns and autoguns are not equal-yet recive the same statlines.
+1S in 40k means a bit gap in power.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Naturally not all bullets are born equal, but we can also agree that lasguns and autoguns are not equal-yet recive the same statlines.
+1S in 40k means a bit gap in power.

Yeah, one of the downsides of the system, really.
It's great for simplicity, but an absolute nightmare if you try to understand the background through game mechanics.

Yeah, in things like RPGs you get greater detail at all levels.

In the FFG RPGs an Autogun and Lasgun have the same damage output. But the Autogun has a full auto mode, carries half as many rounds, and takes longer to reload. Its also 2 different types of damage(energy vs impact)