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I am planning a khorne army and I want your preferences and Opinions. The army will be small, might never be more than 750 so I want cheap squads to be able to squeeze in More cool stuff

8 Zerkers are 162 pts

8 CSM with MoK and Icon of Wrath are 160 pts

The later option is basically the same but lack ws5 and fearless. But have a reroll on their charge distance and the ability to take a special weapon to deal with different targets. Are higher ws, fearless and no icon worth 30 pts?

Which one would you put on the field?

For a few years it´s been largely deemed better to use normal CSM with MOK. WS5 isn´t that special. Reroll on charge distance on the other hand is useful at times.

WS5 isn't that special, but it sure helps!

I really like Khorne Bezerkers, but I would like to field them with Chainaxes instead of generic CCW.

The only special weapon I would consider would be the Flamer, as you still want to be able to assault. Also, remember fearless may not be seem like a big deal, but if your guys get swept in combat, they're gone, whereas fearless keeps you locked in.

Normal Marines every time. Buy Melta Guns, and you actually have shooting power when you can't make the charge; if a Berserker Marine can't make the charge, he's an expensive option.

If you're set on sacred 8 man squads I'd have to go with zerks. A single special weapon isn't as good as fearless. Especially given an 8 man csm squad is going to be very susceptible to morale issues, taking a check if 2 are shot dead. Bump it up to 10man squads and I would likely change my mind. If you're willing to ditch marks (not every khorne follower needs to be marked) then you can also get a 10 man csm squad with 2 melta guns for the same cost. I've also found rhinos invaluable at such low point levels.

I believe Berzerks can take an icon, no? Also, since I'm sure you're taking land raiders, you won't often be making long distance charges. I'd go with the Zerkers. Fearless is huge.

WS5, S5 charge, fearless, they aren't terrible, not spectacular either. I don't spend anything on upgrades except occasionally VotLW and/or IoW. Juggerlord unlocks them as troops which is a nice bonus.

tompaj wrote:I want cheap squads to be able to squeeze in More cool stuff

Then take neither. Don't bother with marks or icons at all. Naked CSM. Or better yet, cultists.

Plus, the CSM codex in general doesn't excel when you focus on cost cutting. If CSM or berzerkers don't count as cool, well...

 angelofvengeance wrote:
WS5 isn't that special, but it sure helps!

Agreed, against many troops you are boosting your hits from 3/6 to 4/6, that's a improvement of a third!

Your playing pretty small points limits, what will your HQ?

Your comparison identified two weaknesses the MoKhorne CSM unit has; less WS (generally means less hits) and no fearless... Have you considered taking an out of the box dark apostle as your warlord? Your HQ is always going to put you back at least 60 points, so perhaps the +45 points to give the squad fearless and hatred is worthwhile?

An idea I've been throwing around is Ahriman (or Huron but I like Tzeentch) as Warlord giving atleast 1 unit Infiltrate, and giving it to a full 20-man CSM squad with Icon of Vengence, CCW and Khorne Marks. Infiltrate in, fire Bolters Turn 1, move up and engage as distance allows. Expensive, but not much is going to live after that. It's also a one trick pony so not the most helpful thing ever.

My question for the OP would be...
Which version of the fluff do you prefer? Because the original fluff for khorne armies is that everything had to be bought in units of 8 and thatspecial and heavy weapons were allowed. As a matter of fact, khorne champions had a HIGHER chance of getting heavy weapons than any other champion.

Personally, I would go with normal chaos marines with the mark and give them berserker heads and as many body parts as possible along with special weapons. For the added versitality.

Get Kharne's Butcherhorde. Dilema resolved.

Kharnes butcherhorde?

Thanks for the input guys. My HQ will be a juggernaut lord, with spawns for escort.

I want to buy everything in units of 8 where its possible, and I didn't know that champions have a higher chance of getting heavy weapons. Also I discovered that icon of wrath for the zerkers are only 15 pts.. The point that the special weapon that make most sense is the flamer is true. Meltas can still miss on a bad roll, and most effective within 6" when you can assault and plant a melta bomb instead..

So I'll have to invest a few more points and maybe build fluffy squads of 8 berzerkers, with a icon of wrath, and aspiring champion with melta bombs and maybe a combi-flamer. In such small point games I can swap the lords aofb for something cheaper.

The Dark Apostle idea is nice! I will really consider that if the army becomes larger. But for now I got a really nice idea for building my HQ.

If you want cc with normal marines, why not give them a MoS for that tasty +1Initiative? Combined with frag and krak, you *will* be striking first most of the time.

And with Icon of Slaanesh, all your guys have FNP as well, protecting them from massed small arms fire and offering a modicum of protection from plasma fire as well.

tompaj wrote:The point that the special weapon that make most sense is the flamer is true.

No it isn't. The only time you'll ever use flamers is when you're in close combat range. Given that casualties have to come from the front, the only thing you'll do with flamers is to kill yourself out of assault range.

Flamers have never been a good idea for units trying to get into close combat. They're a defensive weapon you use to stop your opponent from getting into close combat (with super overwatch), or to nail close combat units once they've eaten one of your speedbumps.

In any case, you're going to need a lot of shooting in your list. This IS 7th edition after all. The only question is if you want to take some combi-weapon terminators or havocs/oblits/preds to do the shooting so that you can focus on units that will only do close combat, or if you want all of your units to be able to do some shooting and some chopping. The former is berzerkers, the latter is CSM.

I have 60 khorne berzerkers that I use to proxy more cultist.
or i use them as regular marines or plague marines.

I use to try and utilize my KBs and even tried this Faux Zerkers build

10 CSM, Swap Bolter for CCW, Skip the MoK and IoW, Put em on a Rhino with dirge casters.

Every time I use something other than berserkers as CC marines, I end up -really- missing the WS5 and fearless. Here's my breakdown from what I've learned from the last three or whatever years.

Berserkers: Good all round with all the goodies (ws5, fearless, furious charge, rage). Buy them the icon, the reroll is worth 15 points, and a claw for the champ. They put out a stupid number of attacks that hit reliably, but only on the charge. After that, they basically turn into regular marines and can flounder really easily. They -NEED- a character beatstick to carry them through more than one combat round. 8 of them alone will fail to do much but get stuck in an uninteresting fight the whole game.

CSM: Pretty much the same deal as berserkers, but with less quality. By the time you deck them out, they cost about the same. IMO, berserkers are usually worth the upgrade at this point. The special weapon rarely makes a difference for a CC squad, and the lack of all the special rules can cripple them easily. Again, they require a melee HQ to carry them through the day, otherwise theyll hit combat and slowly slapfight all game.

Chosen: I've been having good luck with these as alternatives to Berserkers because they have one key difference. They can take power weapons, and so don't require an expensive HQ to babysit them. A unit of 10 with MoK, icon, a claw and two poweraxes makes them more expensive than berserkers, but they can carry themselves much better without a character, so end up being cheaper overall. Theyre nice if your HQ is something else, like a prince or a biker and you don't want to buy a second HQ. Plus they get bolters to plink at things, and an extra attack to boot! With crimson slaughter you can also give them preferred enemy, which makes up for the lack of WS5 quite nicely (though the champion sometimes doesnt last too long.)

For transport of any of these units, I've been using nothing but the dreadclaw, and its been a god(s) send. Sometime's it doesnt survive the game, but it has never ever failed to get my crew in the fight by turn two in the dozen or so games I've fielded it in. A lot of people have been turning their noses up at it (it's not a drop pod), but it was exactly what assault chaos players needed in their toolbelt.

Don't forget possessed, either. They're basically khorne berzerkers with an invul save that you can then give another mark to - including another mark of khorne!

CSM are a bit more flexible, though. You can give them bolters, for example, and engage fliers at all. Plus, being able to blow up a transport with a couple of meltaguns and then be able to assault with the same unit is nice, too.

They're sort of the double down to the berzerker's triple down.

Depends on what you're fighting. WS4 targets, the 'Zerkers are about 1/3 better in melee. Anything other than WS4 and they're comparable.

OK, my bad. Kharne's Butcherhorde is a formation which was released as part of GW'S advent calendar. Basically it is Kharne and four units of Khorne marked CSM and four units of zerkers. Roll an eight for charge distance and you double your attacks!

and 6s generate an extra attack, from memory. Can get nasty, but youre looking at a full army cost....

 Filch wrote:
I have 60 khorne berzerkers that I use to proxy more cultist.

That's just a sad state of affairs for the 'Zerkers...

Depends on what they're gona do. If they're on their own, in a rhino, you're probably better off with regular marines as 2 meltas will help out in general.

If they're with an indep, you're probabyl better off with regular marines as they're cheaper and indep is doing the ap2 beating and their meltas will help out in general.

...i think i've missed something. Anywayz, it's more of what you personally prefer - fearless and mellee goodies or being a bit cheaper and special weapons.