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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Just wanted to respond to a few hits real quick and the I'll let the FO topic pass.

I agree, screw those 40 S4 shots. Who even needs those? I usually let my Necrons walk straight at the enemy 1'' away so he can charge me. YOLO.


Sig, the context was what advantages do FOs have over Warriors, and the notion was you can use them more aggressively, ie allow them to get closer to the enemy. I don't think think that's been refuted.

Template weapons = flame, small, big blast. All use templates.


Again, the context was Overwatch.

*your. True though, valid point. Don't mind the Overwatch wound then. Add in the power weapon sergeant instead.


Grammar Nazi . Sure, that's fine, although unlikely (at least from what I've seen, PW on a Tac Serg).

I cannot say how wrong this statement is. Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, WRONG. I so often see people making such an argument and it's WRONG. This isn't how 40k works. This might work in WHFB and even then, it's debatable, but if you calculate points like that in 40k, you're dead wrong. If you outflank and attack the marines, then it's very likely that for the ENTIRE GAME, your FO did nothing but kill a single squad of tac that costs less.


Point for point isn't a definitive way of appraising a units functionality, that I absolutely agree with you. However, it does give you some sort of barometer of a units full impact. If, in the above example, a unit soaks up a lot of firepower, takes out an enemy unit, and denies an area/objective, then it most certainly did all three. Boiling it down to "your FO did nothing but kill a single squad of tac that costs less" is quite simply missing the big picture. Take Brymm's example with the LG, if you're FOs do nothing more then eat a truck load of bullets and allow the rest of your army to get into position,.that's a HUGE win. HUGE. Even if they don't kill a single model, it's a win.

Wraiths to get rid of elite troops and can be everywhere anytime. AB to quickly kill opponents. Heavy Destroyers to get rid of that AV 14 / terminators.


Fair enough, but none of those are needed.

Uhm sorry? FO enter the field, template, dead. Come on now. Paladins laugh at FO. Purifier laugh at FO. Land Raider laugh at FO. Psiflebot laughts at FO. Sigh. Have you ever played FO? (I can do that too.) Also: I have 14 FO I converted myself back in the days and occasionally (very rarely) field them in friendlies. They didn't do bad. Just....not good enough to justify their cost. Give them *something*. They had that cool USR in 5th. Or give them rending. Fearless. Anything.


IG don't scare FOs, they just don't, exactly how many templates do you think it's going to take to kill a well spread out FO unit? And if that's the case, does that mean the IG make all infantry disappear instantly? Are Flayed Ones somehow more vulnerable to templates then anything else (they do have to get closer, so I suppose their is something their). And yes, Paladins and Purifiers are scary against CC units, although that's pretty much every CC unit in the game that has to tread carefully around them.


Punisher, I should have said "a couple of little things" as I agree most aren't complete game changers, but they do help.

1) Requires your opponent to be poor and make mistakes, whether or not your opponent makes an error shouldn't be in the equation when determining if a unit is good/effective, you should assume knowledgeable opponents.


Good strategies always include potential psychological impacts on the enemy. The more you give your opponent to deal with the better chance they deal with it inefficiently.

2) Lack of Fearless is huge


It's something you have to keep in mind, but it's really not game breaking. Again, LD 10 and a boat load of attacks. It (FOs breaking) really doesn't happen nearly as often as people seem to project.

4) This is a moot point, its the same for almost every necron unit, and again requires a poor opponent in order to take advantage of it.


Not any of the Canopteks, which are really the FOs primary competition for CC (although they are all certainly faster). Also, it doesn't really require a poor opponent, only one willing to shoot at them. If they don't shoot at them...well then their not shot at. There are a lot of similar CC only units (wyches, genies, etc) that would love to have incentives for the opponent to not shoot at them.

6) I actually think they are the worst unit in the codex at destroying transports.


It takes ~14 Warriors/Immortals in rapid fire range to pop a transport, where as ~7 FOs in assault range will do the trick. Now, of course the threat range for Warriors/Immortals is a little higher, however the damage potential drops off significantly. Anyway, what I should have said is "they crush transports in their threat range."

Edit: Just remembered this, if FOs are killing a transport they have a pretty good chance of taking the contents with them, something else to keep in mind.

7) First off, now I might be wrong about this but its what I remember from the rulebook, is that you can't assault a vehicle that you cannot hurt.


I'll have to double check, but I'm pretty sure the only difference is you can choose to leave combat against such units now.

Oh and peoples fear of deepstriking


With just a 2"+ run roll, you get just as spread out as you could naturally.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/01/16 04:25:33


 
   
Made in jp
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monti14 wrote:
Hey guys I dont know where to post this. Thought maybe 40k lists but figured it might just piss people off.
Actually, posting lists in the middle of tactics threads has a higher chance of annoying people than posting lists in the lists forum...

 
   
Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





LaPorte, IN

 Brymm wrote:
I don't know if *any* of the upgrades are worth it on the tomb blades. If you keep them with Tesla, its twin-linked. Giving them BS 5 will, if you fired 30 times at something, will net you only an extra 1.49 hits. 30 shots is the amount of fire your 5 man unit can put out in 6 turns. That means for an entire game, 25pts netted you 1.49 hits. Leave the nebuloscope at home. Both of the other upgrades attempt to push an affordable, fast and killy unit into an expensive, fast and killy unit that is slightly more survivable. Zahndrek pays 5pts for the ability to give a unit stealth every turn. Don't pay 50pts to upgrade these guys with it.
The increased armor save, I can't really comment on. Well, maybe I can. Would you pay 10 points to upgrade a Necron Warrior to have one better armor save and a tesla gun? You wouldn't? Why not? Oh, because it only costs 4pts to do that, not 10.
So in short, don't get trapped by this unit. It suffers by having to compete in the best slot for Necrons already, don't make it something its not. Keep em cheap and play to their strengths, I don't think you'll be disappointed.
If you aren't running Zandrekh the Stealth on the tomb blades looks pretty good to me. You are looking at a 3+ if they turbo boost right? And I would definitely prefer the Armour 3 to the Armour 4+ just because of the amount of AP 4 weapons being used in the current Meta.
   
Made in us
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If you aren't running Zandrekh the Stealth on the tomb blades looks pretty good to me. You are looking at a 3+ if they turbo boost right? And I would definitely prefer the Armour 3 to the Armour 4+ just because of the amount of AP 4 weapons being used in the current Meta.


Yeah that's about right. Also obviously stacks with Shrouding from Night Fighting. That's the one way I've envisioned using them in 6th. Hang around on the periphery, dropping Tesla from the outskirts of your max range, hide behind good cover save, T5, and RP against return fire.

I wouldn't recommend getting the armor save and stealth however. I would get one or the other depending on how you see using them.

I used them pretty extensively in 5th. I would Trubo boost them around to provide a cover wall for my other toys, and hop them behind vehicles I was about to assault to shut the doors on them and kill the innards. I haven't used them as much anymore but being the only true jet bikes left to the Crons I still think they have potential.

Another build I've always mused about is the 5 BS with Particle Beamers. 175 points for 5 very mobile S6 BS 5 blast templates seems like it could do some damage.
   
Made in se
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I still cant see how flayed ones are good.

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^
Dude, don't get them started again.
I'm sick a page long responses to responses where all they try to do is out mathhammer each other or point out banal inadequacies in someone's reasoning.

 
   
Made in de
Decrepit Dakkanaut





First of all, I need to apologize for my tone...after reading through my posts again, I got the impression of sounding pretty hostile. I apologize for this.

Anyway, since skroff asked us to continue, I cannot resist!

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Just wanted to respond to a few hits real quick and the I'll let the FO topic pass.
Sig, the context was what advantages do FOs have over Warriors, and the notion was you can use them more aggressively, ie allow them to get closer to the enemy. I don't think think that's been refuted.


To begin with, I all of us have been mislead by this comparison - it's not fitting and thus a bad comparison. Necron Warriors' main use is anti-vehicle and scoring whereas FO fail at these tasks but are better in melee due to having +2 attacks compared to the average Necron Warrior. Anyway, if we stick to the comparison, I'd still consider Warriors equally strong at the very least. 40 S4 shots is nothing to scoff at and Overwatch then grants you another 40 S4 shots hitting on 6s aka ~7 S4 hits. That's pretty good despite those losses not counting vs. combat result. That's where FO (would) perform better due to sheer volume of attacks. On the other hand, they get this advantage at the cost of having no ranged weapon which makes them less flexible. If I was to choose between these two units, I would not hesitate for a blink of a second and pick Warriors. The scoring part alone is incredibly useful in 6th as 5/6 missions rely on scoring units - not to mention that you still got the option to use GA to make your Warriors even more resistant to damage. Talking about area denial - that's where, in my eyes, Warriors perform better as well. A scoring unit on an objective means a point advantage of 6 (you get 3 points while your opponent gets -3 in regards to the overall total amount of points). FO cannot score and thus only give a (theoretical) +3 as they deny an objective. I play a Silver Tide list and it's really hard to get those 20 Necron Warriors to move away from the objective. Sure, it's really, really, REALLY expensive to have 2 GA and Zandrekh, but that's a squad to stay

On their own, FO are better at area denial unless confronted with light vehicles that swoop around and shoot them - FO have an average threat range of 13'' whereas Necron Warriors, against vehicles, have an effective threat range of 30''.
Again, the context was Overwatch.

I wasn’t specifically talking about Overwatch though, I was talking about the dangers of having FO so close to the enemy.
*your. True though, valid point. Don't mind the Overwatch wound then. Add in the power weapon sergeant instead.


Y U CALL ME NAZI BRO?! I usually see seargeants packing an energy weapon as they help just fine vs. 3+…which is a lot of troops.
*Point for point isn't a definitive way of appraising a units functionality, that I absolutely agree with you. However, it does give you some sort of barometer of a units full impact. If, in the above example, a unit soaks up a lot of firepower, takes out an enemy unit, and denies an area/objective, then it most certainly did all three. Boiling it down to "your FO did nothing but kill a single squad of tac that costs less" is quite simply missing the big picture. Take Brymm's example with the LG, if you're FOs do nothing more then eat a truck load of bullets and allow the rest of your army to get into position,.that's a HUGE win. HUGE. Even if they don't kill a single model, it's a win.

My main gripe about the entire issue is that I see it all from a gamer’s perspective – and points don’t matter when it comes to actually playing. If it took a FO squad 3-5 turns (including the Outflank) to kill a single tac squad in a game, they aren’t efficient in what they do. All of your points went into a unit that managed to kill another unit that cost less points – and that’s not economic. FO, however, cannot eat „a lot of bullets“ as they only have a 4+ armor save that’s easily negated by a lot of (vehicle) weapons and even We Will Be Back only saves you for so long. They got a critical point models-wise, as soon as that one’s reached, they can no longer pack enough man…uh…machine power to pose a threat to the enemy.
Fair enough, but none of those are needed.

I disagree. In a competitive environment, those are necessary, at least Wraiths and AB – you need to maximize your effectiveness within reasonable limits. It’s about the meta and FO are inferior to most other choices a Necron army can offer given the meta you’re in. In friendlies…well, anything goes in those. I might even take a monolith if I still had one
IG don't scare FOs, they just don't, exactly how many templates do you think it's going to take to kill a well spread out FO unit? And if that's the case, does that mean the IG make all infantry disappear instantly? Are Flayed Ones somehow more vulnerable to templates then anything else (they do have to get closer, so I suppose their is something their). And yes, Paladins and Purifiers are scary against CC units, although that's pretty much every CC unit in the game that has to tread carefully around them.

One hit template will render FO ineffective in melee, the same goes for their huge lack of anti-vehicle power. S4 hits simply do not cut it. They can hardly scratch AV 10 (back armor) vehicles and a lot of the stuff at tournaments either has 11 (Necrons) or 14 (Leman Russ, Land Raider etc.). Just get a dreadnought vs. the FO and they are completely useless as they cannot harm him, not even a single scratch.

It takes ~14 Warriors/Immortals in rapid fire range to pop a transport, where as ~7 FOs in assault range will do the trick. Now, of course the threat range for Warriors/Immortals is a little higher, however the damage potential drops off significantly. Anyway, what I should have said is "they crush transports in their threat range."

Ehem. 30‘‘ for Warriors w/ normal shots + 18‘‘ in double tap range compared to (on average) 13‘‘ for FO is quite a lot, not „a little“

 skoffs wrote:
^
Dude, don't get them started again.
I'm sick a page long responses to responses where all they try to do is out mathhammer each other or point out banal inadequacies in someone's reasoning.


This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/01/16 13:53:49


   
Made in us
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Eaton Rapids, MI

 skoffs wrote:
^
Dude, don't get them started again.
I'm sick a page long responses to responses where all they try to do is out mathhammer each other or point out banal inadequacies in someone's reasoning.

Correct, lets not get that started again.
Also, Skoff, I love the avatar. Me and the wife just started the Battlestar Galactica series on Netflix. We're only 10 episodes in and I can honestly say it is the best sci-fi series ever. Period.

Anyways, again about the tomb blades, how can the 3+ armor be worth it? If you're getting 4+ jink anyways (with stealth), how can paying 10 points per guy be worth getting AV3? I mean, how many lists have you made before where you've needed 40 or 50 more points to get something? Now you've found it! You just shaved off a sub-par expensive upgrade from your tomb blades!!!

Fly Molo of Dark Future Gaming!
http://darkfuturegaming.blogspot.com/ 
   
Made in us
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LaPorte, IN

My concern is that they aren't fearless, and there is 5 of them. So increasing their survivability seems to be key. Against the torrent of fire from small arms the 3+ save would be better than the cover save if you bring a Destroyer Lord along as he can't turbo boost with the squad to achieve a 3+ cover save. If you solely plan to use them for cheap, harassing and last minute objective grabbing I agree, run them stripped but I would keep the shadowlooms.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





Here is another way to look at it, your increasing their cost by 50% with shield veins while only increasing their survivability by 16.66%.

It`s not a cost efficient way to run them your paying too much for too little added survivability.

Blades are good naked they are cheap with high toughness and can get you line breaker while not drawing much enemy fire. An argument can be made for the beamers but making them more expensive seems to hurt their appeal for me. They are a cheap fire support unit that can easily get you line breaker and help finish off weakened units wherever.

100pts for 5 jetbikes is a pretty decent unit added with a str5 gun makes them an adequate unit, the upgrades while looking nice are too expensive for what they do and won't add enough value to the unit to be worth it, spend the points elsewhere.

Shadowlooms have the same problem as shield veins in that it increases the cost of the unit by 50% to what? Give them a slightly better cover save...

Unless you really don't have anything left to spend your points on I wouldn't bother giving tomblades any upgrades (ok maybe beamers if you know your up against orcs or blob guard). Increasing the BS of the blade isn't very good for the tesla weapon or the beamer, the beamer doesn't scatter very far anyway (plus you should only be really using it against blobs) and it does very little to a tesla weapon since its already twin linked you benefit from re-rolling 2's to try for another 6, the only weapon that benefits from BS5 is gauss blasters but then they don't really synergize well with the tomb blade.

 Psienesis wrote:
While that's possible, it's also stupid to build your game around your customers being fething morons
 
   
Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut





I think that scarabs are probably the best FA choice because they allways get their points back and more. Wraiths are good but i havent tried them out so much.

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- Tactic Number 1

Step 1: Have some Necrons.

Step 2: Build pretty much any list you want. The cheese will flow.

Step 3: ????

Step 4: Profit!

I represent the Surrey Spartans gaming group. Check us out and feel free to come along for a game! https://www.facebook.com/groups/425689674233804/
Tzeentch Daemons 2000pts
Kabal of the Sundering Strike 2500pts
Eldar Corsairs 750pts
400pts Corregidor/Nomads
300pts Yu Jing
200pts+ each of Imperial and Rebel fleets for X-Wing
A Terran Alliance and Dindrenzi Fleet for Firestorm Armada
A Necromunda Goliath gang and Spyrer gang 
   
Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut





 HerbaciousT wrote:
- Tactic Number 1

Step 1: Have some Necrons.

Step 2: Build pretty much any list you want. The cheese will flow.

Step 3: ????

Step 4: Profit!


What kind of necrons?

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 HerbaciousT wrote:
- Tactic Number 1

Step 1: Have some Necrons.

Step 2: Build pretty much any list you want. The cheese will flow.

Step 3: ????

Step 4: Profit!


This isn't true, is not constructive, adds nothing useful to the topic at hand, and makes you sound like a whining baby.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/16 22:04:36


4000+
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Thousand Sons 4000+
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Made in us
Deadly Dark Eldar Warrior





I know eventually I will buy alot of crons. But before I shell out 400= dollars I want to get your guys oppinnion. After alot of experience playing I am sure your guys oppinnion will trump mine.

Like I said earlier I have 3 fliers and 4 squads of immortals

Gonna probably get:
2 overlords
5-6 crypteks
12 wraiths
3 barges
1-2 warrior boxes (maybe ebay it)
etc

Any advice?

4500
3000 
   
Made in de
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Sounds like a really good list. I'd recommend getting 1 Destroyer Lord instead of 2 overlords (so 1 Overlord + 1 DL) to go with a squad of Wraiths, it really pays off and you do not need a double court anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 HerbaciousT wrote:
- Tactic Number 1

Step 1: Have some Necrons.

Step 2: Build pretty much any list you want. The cheese will flow.

Step 3: ????

Step 4: Profit!


Step 1: Cut a hole in the box.

...wait.

Step 1: Rush into a thread

Step 2: Make a QQ post that lacks any reasoning

Step 3: ???

Step 4: Be ashamed of yourself.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/01/16 23:25:50


   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





monti14 wrote:
I know eventually I will buy alot of crons. But before I shell out 400= dollars I want to get your guys oppinnion. After alot of experience playing I am sure your guys oppinnion will trump mine.

Like I said earlier I have 3 fliers and 4 squads of immortals

Gonna probably get:
2 overlords
5-6 crypteks
12 wraiths
3 barges
1-2 warrior boxes (maybe ebay it)
etc

Any advice?


Well you don't need the overlords since each barge box comes with a Overlord. Other than that, you might want to try deathmarks as they can be pretty devastating in combination with despairteks and a flyer.

 Psienesis wrote:
While that's possible, it's also stupid to build your game around your customers being fething morons
 
   
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monti14 wrote:
I know eventually I will buy alot of crons. But before I shell out 400= dollars I want to get your guys oppinnion. After alot of experience playing I am sure your guys oppinnion will trump mine.

Like I said earlier I have 3 fliers and 4 squads of immortals

Gonna probably get:
2 overlords
5-6 crypteks
12 wraiths
3 barges
1-2 warrior boxes (maybe ebay it)
etc

Any advice?


Don't forget your trusty Destroyer Lord!


Menaphite Dynasty Necrons - 6000
Karak Hirn Dwarfs - 2500

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Punisher wrote:
Here is another way to look at it, your increasing their cost by 50% with shield veins while only increasing their survivability by 16.66%.


Although I've used the very same reasoning myself that doesn't really tell the whole story when analyzing the math. First, when moving from a 4+ to a 3+ armor save you are getting much more then just a 16.67% increase in survivability against AP 4 weapons. Also, and this is obviously harder to quantify, but that better save will keep the unit from being wiped at times, allowing RP to kick in, which obviously has a multiplicative effect.

Lastly though, just comparing the raw firepower, a one better save significantly increase the average amount of shots to lay a single model down:

Say Bolters versus 4+ or 3+ (on T5 Tomb Blades):

9(2÷3)(1÷3)(1÷2)=1

14(2÷3)(1÷3)(1÷3)=1.04

So on average 9 shots to take down one dude with a 4+ save and 14 shots to take down one dude with a 3+ save, or 55% more firepower. Or take this for example, how many shots on average does it take to kill 4 guys with 4+ saves versus 3 guys with 3+ saves?

41(2÷3)(1÷3)(1÷3)=3.04

36(2÷3)(1÷3)(1÷2)=4

So you're clearly getting more bang for your buck in strictly resiliency and longevity terms with the Save upgrades, and that's not even taking into account AP 4 or moments when that save kept the unit affloat long enough to get its RP rolls. Now, the 4+ save unit does have an extra gun, so that still doesn't tell the whole story. Just trying to shed some light into the method of GW's pricing madness.


Sig: don't want to derail the thread anymore with our Flayed One pillow fight, I'll shoot you a PM though to bat around some of the other points you mentioned.


Brymm: BSG is without a doubt my favorite series ever. I've literally seen each episode at least 5 times, with some (Exodus!) probably about a dozen. By the way, the boardgame by FFG is actually quite fantastic, and not too boardgame geek intensive (I've played it with "the monopoly crowd" and they enjoyed it). Definitely recommend if you can get a good 5 or 6 people together. Everyone randomly gets assigned a hidden loyalty card telling them if they are a Cylon or not, and you spend the whole game trying to figure out who to throw in the Brig/Out the Airlock while battling off Raiders/Heavy Raiders and Basestars and working your way through crisis after crisis. Good times.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/17 05:04:53


 
   
Made in de
Decrepit Dakkanaut





@Shardar: Hmm, I still think it should belong in the thread as imo, it's a very worthwhile discussion, especially in regards to FO who are normally seen as "trash" which certainly isn't a true verdict. It's a very valid tactical question and our mathhammer proved that FO have certain advantages over Wraiths while lacking in others.

How about we try to find some common demonitors via PM and post to make a pro / con post with mathhammer in spoilers that might help others?

I am currently writing a new Necron tactica and am looking forward to more input.

As for now, we can agree on FO not being trash, but having a (slightly) different use than Wraiths that are one of the codex' shining stars...can we? ;D

My verdict so far: mediocre units that fall short of the rest of the codex.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/01/17 12:47:11


   
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In da Mekshop

I've enjoyed this thread and gleaned quite a bit of knowledge on the Necrons from reading, thanks to all for your posting and analysis. Been interesting.

Here's a question, regarding Praetorians: most folks seem to lean towards their Rod of the Covenant weapon, but has anyone worked out how well their particle caster/voidblade weaponry does? Rending and entropic strike on the voidblades at S5 doesn't seem too bad, and a S6 shooting weapon would have its uses I imagine. They also get extra attacks in CC, granted without much armor penetrating power.

I have 10 unbuilt Lychguard/Praetorians, and am still deciding what to do with them -and I've already used one staff for a cryptek conversion so Rod weapons are difficult. I suppose I could just use plastic rod for the staves too, but still.

Not sure if I should build 5 Praetorians, 5 Lychguard with shields, use 5 for Necron Lord conversions with warscythes...

-GrimTeef-
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 GrimTeef wrote:


Not sure if I should build 5 Praetorians, 5 Lychguard with shields, use 5 for Necron Lord conversions with warscythes...


I originally ran my Lychguard with sword/shield. It wasn't until after a couple of games that I discovered that you MUST take the best save available to you. This means that more often than not, you'll be using their 3+ armor save instead of the 4+ invulnerable save provided by the shield. So in order for the shields to be effective, you have to be within 6" of an enemy unit, and get hit (and wounded) by a shooting weapon that ignores armor. The chances of all those things occurring simultaneously, especially if your opponent knows what those shields do, are pretty slim. My suggestion would be to model them with warscythes, but if that's not an option, you might consider one of your other choices.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

Remember kids, LRBT's are like cheap beer. One is crap, 3 is ok, and every one you get after that is better than the last.

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LaPorte, IN

It also depends on your intent to use the Lychguard. You can run them as Lychguard, in that case the Warscythe option is better, or you can use them to escort a Deathstar of RC members and Overlords, in that case I would use the shields, just because you will be sending LoS wounds to them and the Lords should have SW and they'll just be allocating wounds to Lychguard that will need Inv. saves.
   
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Thrall Wizard of Tzeentch




ima just clear this up from a game i just played where the 6 wraiths vs 10 tp. 1 wraith was killed by shooting, then the wraiths killed no tp's. When the tp's attacked back they killed another 4 wraiths. in other words they did better than mathammer said they would and killed 200 pts for a loss of 0 pts - seems to me that tp's are the clear winner in my mind. obviously the wraiths are a brilliant unit, but the fact that they dont have rp is actually a massive loss for them that makes them actually worse in straight up cc than they appear to be, and because of this thay also suffer from high volumes of shots of any ap, where as the tp attack at s6 ap2 in cc, which is like the wraiths rending every one of their hits. thats not to be sniffed at. I would be inclined to field wraiths in an army however because they are more bang for there buck and both models are fun to paint. The other thing is that people know how good wraiths are so they are targets in a way that tp arent. Also tp look bas ass supported by a stalker, so heh, what else matters.
   
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Nemesor wrote:
ima just clear this up from a game i just played where the 6 wraiths vs 10 tp. 1 wraith was killed by shooting, then the wraiths killed no tp's. When the tp's attacked back they killed another 4 wraiths. in other words they did better than mathammer said they would and killed 200 pts for a loss of 0 pts - seems to me that tp's are the clear winner in my mind. obviously the wraiths are a brilliant unit, but the fact that they dont have rp is actually a massive loss for them that makes them actually worse in straight up cc than they appear to be, and because of this thay also suffer from high volumes of shots of any ap, where as the tp attack at s6 ap2 in cc, which is like the wraiths rending every one of their hits. thats not to be sniffed at. I would be inclined to field wraiths in an army however because they are more bang for there buck and both models are fun to paint. The other thing is that people know how good wraiths are so they are targets in a way that tp arent. Also tp look bas ass supported by a stalker, so heh, what else matters.


I mathammered it out and YES 400pts of TPs will Kill 200pts of Wraiths IF(and this is a pretty big if) the TPs get the charge AND have access to a Res Orb. Otherwise what happened in your game was nothing more than luck.

In a complete stand off battle where no one gets the charge it takes 5 Wraiths to kill 10 RoC TPs(lack of the TPs having a RO might even drop it to 4 Wraiths)
4 Wraiths if they get the charge(lack of RO for TPs)
and 6 Wraiths if the TPs get the charge(lack of RO for TPs)

A Destroyer Lord can improve both squads significantly but can do more with the TPs since a RO will improve the TPs and the DL. But now you are talking about a 600pt unit vs a 400pt unit that depends on which one will get the charge to decide the victor.



   
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Nemesor wrote:
ima just clear this up from a game i just played where the 6 wraiths vs 10 tp. 1 wraith was killed by shooting, then the wraiths killed no tp's. When the tp's attacked back they killed another 4 wraiths. in other words they did better than mathammer said they would and killed 200 pts for a loss of 0 pts - seems to me that tp's are the clear winner in my mind. obviously the wraiths are a brilliant unit, but the fact that they dont have rp is actually a massive loss for them that makes them actually worse in straight up cc than they appear to be, and because of this thay also suffer from high volumes of shots of any ap, where as the tp attack at s6 ap2 in cc, which is like the wraiths rending every one of their hits. thats not to be sniffed at. I would be inclined to field wraiths in an army however because they are more bang for there buck and both models are fun to paint. The other thing is that people know how good wraiths are so they are targets in a way that tp arent. Also tp look bas ass supported by a stalker, so heh, what else matters.


Your example bears no value to the discussion. I have seen people in 5th winning with Tau vs GK, did that make them less overpowered?

Mathhammer is about getting the average results, not specific individual results as those bear no statistical value on their own. If you use that set of mind to judge on what's better, you're gonna have a bad time.

I disagree with the DL doing more for the TP. You need to keep in mind that Wraiths have Rending and thus every re-roll means another potential 6. I'd say they are about equal. The thing is that TP are useless wtihout a DL whereas Wraiths can hold fine on their own.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/21 08:32:05


   
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LaPorte, IN

Nemesor wrote:
ima just clear this up from a game i just played where the 6 wraiths vs 10 tp. 1 wraith was killed by shooting, then the wraiths killed no tp's. When the tp's attacked back they killed another 4 wraiths. in other words they did better than mathammer said they would and killed 200 pts for a loss of 0 pts - seems to me that tp's are the clear winner in my mind. obviously the wraiths are a brilliant unit, but the fact that they dont have rp is actually a massive loss for them that makes them actually worse in straight up cc than they appear to be, and because of this thay also suffer from high volumes of shots of any ap, where as the tp attack at s6 ap2 in cc, which is like the wraiths rending every one of their hits. thats not to be sniffed at. I would be inclined to field wraiths in an army however because they are more bang for there buck and both models are fun to paint. The other thing is that people know how good wraiths are so they are targets in a way that tp arent. Also tp look bas ass supported by a stalker, so heh, what else matters.
So I assuming no D. lord was involved in the combat? And you are impressed that a squad that is twice the points of a squad of wraiths, killed the squad? First, try taking 400 points of wraiths against 400 points of TP and then get back to me.
   
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10 Wraiths vs. 10 TP, I know who'd win

Assuming that nobody gets the charge:

Wraiths strike first: 30 attacks, 15 hits, wound on 3s, 10 wounds with ~2 armor piercing ones, thus 8 wounds vs. the 3+ => ~3+2 = 5 dead TP before they can strike back. No need to further elaborate here, we know how it ends.

"YOU FORGOT ABOUT THE ROD LOLOL".

If the TP get charged, it's neglible. If they charge, which is rather unlikely given the range of 6'', that's 10 shots. 6.p6 hits, wounds on 3+, 4.p4 wounds caused, 3++ => 1,5 dead Wraiths.

*yawn*

   
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Regular Dakkanaut





Why do you compare them to each other? Compare them instead to other enemy units. These two units do different things like TPs eat MEQs while Wraiths can face small elite units.

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 Tomten wrote:
Why do you compare them to each other? Compare them instead to other enemy units. These two units do different things like TPs eat MEQs while Wraiths can face small elite units.


MEQ also suffer vs. Wraiths - they lack attacks compared to Wraiths and volume of fire is the one thing Wraiths fear.

   
 
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