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As some of you may have heard, the next codex, after crons, is rumored to be CSM. I play CSM and I do have my complaints about the codex. I'm usually up against pretty balanced armies, other than the Eldar. Anyway, I just wanted to know what dakka thinks. Should I get my hopes up that it will be better than before, or should i just expect little to no improvement?

I expect disappointment all around.

I have, over the past few months since I have switched to Flames of War, been telling people that I will continue playing Thousand Sons only if they get a new book and new plastics around the same time.

Otherwise, it's 277.Volksgrenadierkompanie and 101st Easy Co. Good luck bud

I tried FoW but I just never go into, and I love WWII. However, I've come to expect that from the rumors. I did read a rumor suggesting drop pods. I think Drop Pods would make the codex for me. Chaos just lacks the ability to get up board. That being said, Land Raider variants would also make me very happy. Ten models transport capacity is hard to work with. A 5 man term squad isn't bad in one but anything else is disappointing. I do have IA13 so if the codex is a flop at least I can rely on Forge World.

Whether you like the changes or not, I'd expect changes. CSM, despite its age, tends to get jerked around a lot. They have legions and then they lose legions. They have demons, and then demons get split off into a different codex. Warp-fire war engines pop up out of nowhere.

This might be the first edition of the codex that doesn't add or remove several things, but I wouldn't pin my hopes too much on that. Just like I wouldn't pin my hopes on drop pods. I really doubt they're getting them.

CSM are much more like GK where they have a lot of overlap with SM, but not total (like, for example, drop pods), and with their own branching direction they take things in. Since they lost demons, I feel like there hasn't been a clear understanding of what that major differentiator is trying to be, though. My guess is that the next CSM codex will try again to pin that down, which means more changes.

Why? Why do you need a new codex? Oh I get it... because CSM doesn't have Wave Serpents.

Sure, there's absolutely no possible reason anyone would ever want a new codex other than to have the best codex.

I feel that we CSM players will get a nice bump. I think the current codex is on the lower side of the codexes and GW has no idea how to fix something properly so i wouldn't be surprised if we get an OP Codex.

Things I feel we lack in is

Eternal Warriors - as Abbadon is our only one. I would say make all chapter Named Characters. Lucas, Ahriman, Kharn, and Typhus. Most of them are 200+ points. Sucks for one Force weapon to take that out of your army. DP should also be EW as they are said to never die. If that physical form is destroyed they just possess and mutate another body for there bidding.

Armour - Land Raider, Vindicator, and Predator is not enough. The current codex tried to make it up with walkers, but some other variations would be nice.

Troop Choice - maybe see a couple CSM variations in the troop section like the SM Codex has.

Elites - We really only have 3 choices. The CSM variations are hardly used outside of taking them as a troop choice when allowed and I also don't see possessed used very often. Not sure why but that could just be the FLGS I play at. The new HelBrute data sheet is nice. I like to use the mayhem pack to deepstrike them in. You don't lose control of them as easily being that close to them, but maybe making them so they only become crazed when down to there last HP and they must roll every turn on it from then on.

Defiler- you pay an extra 75 points to give the vindicator some close combat weapons. I know the battle cannon is different, but what you get in range you lose in strength so I see them as very similar. maybe make the Battle Cannon a Heavy vise Ordanance so it doesn't scatter as much. The defiler is already BS 3 so its still going to move on most rolls. Please cut back even by 20 pints on it.

Champions of Chaos - this rule makes little sense. I hate having to challenge. there are already rules for if you do not let that be enough. If a aspiring champion is in combat and, lets say SM Logan, shows up I doubt he would just stop fighting and be like "I got this guys" and challenge him. as he is 1 A and 1 LD away from being a grunt CSM.

As I said I play CSM so maybe I am selfish.

 DarkLink wrote:
Sure, there's absolutely no possible reason anyone would ever want a new codex other than to have the best codex.

You have a hardcover. let it saturate a bit more in some nurgly stew. I'd rather see a squat codex before a new CSM, lol. (Aside from a supplement. You can have those all day)

Serious note. Sisters need a physical codex long before you need a new one.

Yeah... There are like 10 other things I'd rather see and that would be a better move than....csm...ew

Son of aY3ti wrote:

Eternal Warriors - as Abbadon is our only one. I would say make all chapter Named Characters. Lucas, Ahriman, Kharn, and Typhus. Most of them are 200+ points. Sucks for one Force weapon to take that out of your army. DP should also be EW as they are said to never die. If that physical form is destroyed they just possess and mutate another body for there bidding.

would you like some shootable shields with that? How many codexes have eternal warrior on every single character?

Troop Choice - maybe see a couple CSM variations in the troop section like the SM Codex has.

This is fair. All your variation is clogging up the Elite slots.

Champions of Chaos - this rule makes little sense. I hate having to challenge. there are already rules for if you do not let that be enough. If a aspiring champion is in combat and, lets say SM Logan, shows up I doubt he would just stop fighting and be like "I got this guys" and challenge him. as he is 1 A and 1 LD away from being a grunt CSM.
.

Nothing fluffy about a guy, prideful and desperate to prove himself to his god, challenging every character he sees. Nope, nothing at all. And lets cry about the stat line instead of talking about the ridiculous power of having a boon table? Not to mention all the AP-Ridiculous stuff you can take, iirc.

I think CSM doesn't need a new codex atm.
Things can only get worse.

 Brometheus wrote:
I expect disappointment all around.

Would expect no less from DakkaDakka.

Personally, I´m sure things will get improved allround should the Codex even actually be on it´s way. No, we will not get overpowered units. We will get a Codex that is similiar to the last 6 codices, one that is in line with their powerlevel. I expect a few cool formations, perhaps "chapter tactics" -of some kind. And ofcourse, some new awesome model(s). I hope the less used units would get buffs, especially Warp Talons, Possessed and the like.

as long as they don't screw it up im fine with it

For the love of god we need a proper CSM codex.

How hard is it to make a proper chaos codex?

Step one:
You take codex marines, remove all the "chaos guys lost access to that", or make variant of "close but not quite" like the termies-they got that part fine. a bit too harsh at times, but within reason.

Step two:
Add chaosy constructs and weapons-that is semi-fine too. could be better, but the so called "dinobots" are actually fun, decent at their jobs and you can tell they are chaos in a glance.
Defilers need an upgrade though. they just cost too much for what they bring. either up their AV a bit, or lower the price. a 13/13/11 defiler like the soul grinder will be a dream.

Step three:
Add mutants and such-blarg. oblits are cool and all, but mutilators and possessed are just...not there. where they cheaper, or stronger, than we could talk. but as they are? blarg.

Step four:
Add the gods-they screw that one up so bad its actually amazing.
I mean, how blind do you need to be to not see that current tzentch is worthless? both mark and Tsons are useless.
That Khorne is not all that good in assault anyway? that Slannash is all over the place and have no pinpoint job? (special guns, and initiative bonus! what a combo!)
Nurgle is the only god worth a damn in the CSM codex. its not even funny how much of an auto-pick he is for nearly every unit.

So...Nurgle being the "power build" means massive Nurgle nerfs for the next codex? No more FNP predicted. Which would go with the whole pre-5th edition neutering all the codexes have been experiencing.

They dont need to nerf nurgle, they need to make it so khorne is actually good at his thing, slannash will have a thing, and tzentch will stop being a downgrade.

 Pyeatt wrote:
Why? Why do you need a new codex? Oh I get it... because CSM doesn't have Wave Serpents.

100% agree with you there!

 BoomWolf wrote:

Add the gods-they screw that one up so bad its actually amazing.
I mean, how blind do you need to be to not see that current tzentch is worthless? both mark and Tsons are useless.
That Khorne is not all that good in assault anyway? that Slannash is all over the place and have no pinpoint job? (special guns, and initiative bonus! what a combo!)
Nurgle is the only god worth a damn in the CSM codex. its not even funny how much of an auto-pick he is for nearly every unit.

This tenfold.

On paper 1k Sons are a very nice unit, you get a 5-man squad, you pay 15 Pts each for an Aura of Dark glory to provide a 5 invul. Then you get: AP 3, MoT (4+ Invul), ML1 sorcerer with force weapon and fearless entirely free of cost! Seems strong right?

Well it's not, You get 4 Str4 AP3 shots at 24" range (sorcerer has a bolt pistol). And again, in theory, AP3 bolters sound strong, but the lack of shots invalidates any power gained from the AP 3.
I theory 1K Sons are a very cheap unit for what you're getting and they are pretty durable when face with AP3 weaponry, but no one is stupid enough to waste AP3 weaponry on 1K sons. They die just as easily to AP4 and up weaponry as normal CSM do.
Your ML1 psyker is worth jack gak because he has to roll on what is possibly the worst psychic discipline in the game.

In the end, you're paying 75Pts for Fearless and an extra warp charge you can use on another psyker in your army. I can get Fearless for 25 points on CSM and I can buy an extra mastery level for my sorcerer for another 25. So what exactly am I paying for?

My buddy runs them in bulk, and they're actually pretty brutal.. That AP3.. Only way to get close is by charging in termies and making all those saves.

Or, not bothering to get close?
These are SnP dudes with 24" range RF weapons.
They are NOT a ranged threat. they are a point-blank threat.

Alternatively you just throw units that are too weak per model to be worth the shots. AP3 isn't worth anything when the unit coming at you got no armor to begin with. 5+ invul isn't helping when you get shot at by AP5 or worse.

As for "making all the saves" with termies-you do reaize that they are even less of a threat than regular marines to terminators due to simply the reduced dice pool?


1K sons are great on paper. but they do not function in reality, not at that cost. an invul is not worth that much for a marine, AP3 bolters are not that valuable, and for some reason the spykers of the GOD OF MAGIC have the lousiest table. (the doombolt is the best of the bunch, and even that is only a decent gun, but than have psyker power downsides attached..)

 Pyeatt wrote:

 DarkLink wrote:
Sure, there's absolutely no possible reason anyone would ever want a new codex other than to have the best codex.

You have a hardcover. let it saturate a bit more in some nurgly stew. I'd rather see a squat codex before a new CSM, lol. (Aside from a supplement. You can have those all day)

Serious note. Sisters need a physical codex long before you need a new one.

It was 4ed CSM ver2.0. Except for the dinobots and cultists nothing changed. Not even power levels of units. The codex lost more then it gained.

 Pyeatt wrote:

Son of aY3ti wrote:

Eternal Warriors - as Abbadon is our only one. I would say make all chapter Named Characters. Lucas, Ahriman, Kharn, and Typhus. Most of them are 200+ points. Sucks for one Force weapon to take that out of your army. DP should also be EW as they are said to never die. If that physical form is destroyed they just possess and mutate another body for there bidding.

would you like some shootable shields with that? How many codexes have eternal warrior on every single character?

Troop Choice - maybe see a couple CSM variations in the troop section like the SM Codex has.

This is fair. All your variation is clogging up the Elite slots.

Champions of Chaos - this rule makes little sense. I hate having to challenge. there are already rules for if you do not let that be enough. If a aspiring champion is in combat and, lets say SM Logan, shows up I doubt he would just stop fighting and be like "I got this guys" and challenge him. as he is 1 A and 1 LD away from being a grunt CSM.
.

Nothing fluffy about a guy, prideful and desperate to prove himself to his god, challenging every character he sees. Nope, nothing at all. And lets cry about the stat line instead of talking about the ridiculous power of having a boon table? Not to mention all the AP-Ridiculous stuff you can take, iirc.

Rule #1: Be polite.

Saying someone's argument is "crying about stat lines" is not polite. Neither is being a sarcastic jerk.

I feel really bad for my friend... He just played his first game with his own Chaos models at 750pts. I'm trying to think of a way to break it to him that he should wait before he continues buying models. Spending money on ANOTHER rulebook is the last thing he's going to want to do.

Son of aY3ti wrote:
I feel that we CSM players will get a nice bump. I think the current codex is on the lower side of the codexes and GW has no idea how to fix something properly so i wouldn't be surprised if we get an OP Codex.

Actually, the current book did a pretty solid job of giving back to us after the complete & utter gutting done in the 4th ed codex.
We gained some very iconic units such as the Dark Apostles, Warpsmiths & Cultists, plus some new toys in the shape of more Daemon engines, (which are way better than just giving us 'spiky smurf stuff'), plus Warp Talons (who aren't nearly as lamentable as the internets makes them out to be, especially now that Daemonology powers exist)

What the next book needs to do is not add more new units, but rather, fix up the lack of unit options across the board... Give our basic CSM squads access to a Heavy Flamer and a new Chaosy special weapon, (something along the lines of a Grav-gun, but not quite so silly-good) Add a variant load-out to our Land Raider, along with a slightly boosted transport capacity since we are primarily envisioned as a brutal close range assault force. Why can't Apostles take a jump pack or bike or even a steed of their respective God? Why can't Warpsmiths at least take a bike?
Open up a few more upgrade options and we're golden. We don't need crappy Loyalist gear, we just need a similar level of our own options!

Son of aY3ti wrote:
Things I feel we lack in is

Eternal Warriors - as Abbadon is our only one. I would say make all chapter Named Characters. Lucas, Ahriman, Kharn, and Typhus. Most of them are 200+ points. Sucks for one Force weapon to take that out of your army. DP should also be EW as they are said to never die. If that physical form is destroyed they just possess and mutate another body for there bidding.

First off, all those characters with the exception of Lucious are completely boss. Ahriman is bat-gak broken when you run him with Psy Shriek + Santic, while Typhus is just a complete b.
Our generic characters are fine, outside of both the Apostle & Warpsmith lacking the option for a bike, and jump pack/God steeds for the former.
DP's simply need a pts drop as they're currently priced as 6th ed FMC's which are nowhere near as game-dominating now.

Son of aY3ti wrote:
Armour - Land Raider, Vindicator, and Predator is not enough. The current codex tried to make it up with walkers, but some other variations would be nice.

We have plenty of vehicles in our motor pool now, we just need some optional fleshing out. Our own Land Raider variant, and perhaps a variant Predator. Maybe give the Forgefiend the ability to take an AA upgrade, (for a sizable cost), for it's Hades Autocannons.

Son of aY3ti wrote:
Troop Choice - maybe see a couple CSM variations in the troop section like the SM Codex has.

No. Add the Heavy flamer as a new heavy weapon option, and give us our own unique special weapon and we're fine. Adding a 3rd weapon upgrade to squads of 16-20 would be a neat incentive to encourage us to use that larger blob squad option.
Cultists simply need the ability to take a few more types of upgrades, such as perhaps the option for a Grenade launcher/Heavy bolter/Heavy flamer and at least a power toy for the squad's champion.

Son of aY3ti wrote:
Elites - We really only have 3 choices. The CSM variations are hardly used outside of taking them as a troop choice when allowed and I also don't see possessed used very often. Not sure why but that could just be the FLGS I play at. The new HelBrute data sheet is nice. I like to use the mayhem pack to deepstrike them in. You don't lose control of them as easily being that close to them, but maybe making them so they only become crazed when down to there last HP and they must roll every turn on it from then on.

Again, just fix the pts-costing so that our option are more desirable.

Son of aY3ti wrote:
Defiler- you pay an extra 75 points to give the vindicator some close combat weapons. I know the battle cannon is different, but what you get in range you lose in strength so I see them as very similar. maybe make the Battle Cannon a Heavy vise Ordanance so it doesn't scatter as much. The defiler is already BS 3 so its still going to move on most rolls. Please cut back even by 20 pints on it.

The Defiler is a helluva lot more flexible than a Vindi, as well as being a freaking Daemon engine! Either give it similar basic rules to the Soul Grinder, or else drop it's pts slightly.

It's really not 'bad' per say right now, it simply suffers from being somewhat over-costed, (due to all the added flexibility of being both anti-MEQ + anti-horde + killy in assaults), and the fact that Soul Grinder is currently a 'Defiler +10' in every way.

Son of aY3ti wrote:
Champions of Chaos - this rule makes little sense. I hate having to challenge. there are already rules for if you do not let that be enough. If a aspiring champion is in combat and, lets say SM Logan, shows up I doubt he would just stop fighting and be like "I got this guys" and challenge him. as he is 1 A and 1 LD away from being a grunt CSM.

No, the rule makes perfect sense. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it a stupid rule. In fact, it's probably one of the fluffiest rules in the entire game! What self-respecting Champion dreaming of godhood wouldn't want to take a chance at stabbing the likes of Logan Grimnar in the back?!
Likewise, of course any good self-serving Chaos Lord is going to allow his over ambitious subordinates to waste themselves against the mightiest enemy heroes, while they selfishly go about massacring the rank-and-file. (while also noting that a potential rival is now very dead and will no longer threaten that Lord's position!)

Son of aY3ti wrote:
As I said I play CSM so maybe I am selfish.

Yes, you most definitely are...

The last thing we need is for CSM's to become Eldar +1. We had that once in the 3.5 codex, and we still haven't lived that reputation down! Nor should we become Vanilla Marines +1 either.

I read a rumour somewhere, that the Cult Marines would be upgrades to regular CSM Squads alongside Bikers, Terminators and Chosen, etc, for a fee. I've got no knowledge of CSM, but it certainly sounds cool, and coud properly give you some more Elite options

I don't think CSM will have a new codex. I think the rumours are bunk and people are just guessing.

If anything we will be getting codex supplements. That would be able to do each god separately and the other chapters/legions/craftworlds/broods/castes and what ever Orks have.

I don't see any codex reboots any time soon, but who knows I can be wrong.

I am not interested in a broken codex that dominates everyone I play. It's up to ME to pick and chose opponents who have the same play style and idea of fun as me. If I choose to play a tournament with a fluffy list, I have no right to be upset when I get stomped by turn 3.

However, I think it's fair to wish for cool stuff such as, I don't know, psychic powers that do not have a chance to kill my sorcerers just for wanting to use it on top of the chance of Perils.

 Pyeatt wrote:
My buddy runs them in bulk, and they're actually pretty brutal.. That AP3.. Only way to get close is by charging in termies and making all those saves.

1 Vindicator or a LandRaider would annihilate the Thousand Sons. Really, anything AP 3 will annihilate them; they're still just in Power Armor.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:
My buddy runs them in bulk, and they're actually pretty brutal.. That AP3.. Only way to get close is by charging in termies and making all those saves.

1 Vindicator or a LandRaider would annihilate the Thousand Sons. Really, anything AP 3 will annihilate them; they're still just in Power Armor.

4++ helps.

CSM are really overdue for a good book, they've had two mediocre books since their last top-tier book.

Speaking of Thousand Sons, how does the power selection work for their unit champions in 7th ed?

Do they have the Tzeentch Primaris plus one randomly generated power?

Does the random power have to be from one of the rulebook lores so they don't exceed the 50% marked power cap?