Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So, the Officio Assassinorum is pretty dec--absolutely amazing in every way possible. However, which assassin is the best?

Vindicare
Pros:
-Amazing long distance ranged support
-Great utility in weapons
-Can bypass invuln saves
-Pistol if anybody gets too close
-Coolest looking mask
Cons:
-Will melt in melee
-Cannot Skyfire
Cullixus
Pros:
-Great in melee
-Ability to set up right in front of enemy
-Hit and run to GTFO of a bad situation
-Has invisibility first turn
-Great Pistol
-Sexy
Cons:
-A couple failed invuln saves and she is toast
-Overwatch can screw her over
Eversor
Pros:
-Great in melee
-FNP
-Furious charge for 5 strength
-extremely strong overwatch
Cons:
-MEQ's will laugh off his weapons
-Looks like an extremely happy skeleton
Culexus
Pros:
-Melts daemons, lame Knights, and any psyker like butter
-Nearly impossible to hit due to Etherium
-One of the few guys who can beat Kaldor Draigo in CC
Cons:
-Very specialized, not strong against non-psykers and useless unless you can sacrifice warp-charges
-Helmet looks ridiculous

Didn't even get the Callidus Assassin's name right...

 The Internet is for Khorn wrote:
Vindicare
Cons:
-Cannot Skyfire

Meh, it is possible.

Culexus can break some of the nastiest deathstars out there (or at least render them visible so the rest of your army can murder them.) Heck, he can even survive a round of shooting from grav cents!

None of the other assassins are hard counters to things which lack a lot of hard counters.

 The Internet is for Khorn wrote:

-MEQ's will laugh off his weapons

The guy capable of 8 or so S5 power sword attacks at WS:Yes?

Wait dont we already have a "da best ass" thread already? edit: nvm that other one is just for preference.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 The Internet is for Khorn wrote:

-MEQ's will laugh off his weapons

The guy capable of 8 or so S5 power sword attacks at WS:Yes?

So 3+ to hit, 3+ to wound, 1/3rd chance to fail save. You might kill a couple if you're lucky.

Mavnas wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 The Internet is for Khorn wrote:

-MEQ's will laugh off his weapons

The guy capable of 8 or so S5 power sword attacks at WS:Yes?

So 3+ to hit, 3+ to wound, 1/3rd chance to fail save. You might kill a couple if you're lucky.

I don't think you know what a power sword is.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 The Internet is for Khorn wrote:

-MEQ's will laugh off his weapons

The guy capable of 8 or so S5 power sword attacks at WS:Yes?

5+3 WS8 S5 AP3 attacks when charging (+1S +3A):
5.3 hits (3+)
3.6 wounds (3+)
= 3.6 kills (AP3 negates Sv3+)

Turn 2, he's down to 5x S4 attacks:
3.3 hits (3+)
1.7 wounds (4+)
= 1.7 kills (AP3)

His shooting is weak, though.

He kills a fair number of dudes in HtH, but he's not obviously worth 135 points.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
5+3 WS8 S5 AP3 attacks when charging (+1S +3A):
5.3 hits (3+)
3.6 wounds (3+)
= 3.6 kills (AP3 negates Sv3+)

Turn 2, he's down to 5x S4 attacks:
3.3 hits (3+)
1.7 wounds (4+)
= 1.7 kills (AP3)

His shooting is weak, though.

He kills a fair number of dudes in HtH, but he's not obviously worth 135 points.

I doubt he'll kill his points worth, true, but if your 135pts holds up 150-160 (10 man tac squad with assorted upgrades) then I'd be hard pressed to call it a waste. Especially since there's a solid chance he'll win that combat and have a shot at contributing elsewhere.

For the same 160 points, I can take some sort of Leman Russ tank. I know what that does.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
For the same 160 points, I can take some sort of Leman Russ tank. I know what that does.

Well you wouldn't throw an Eversor at a Russ, so I'm not sure where that factors in. He'll mince guard squads faster than a tac squad just using his 2+ poison fist, and his bolt pistol actually matters.

That Eversor doesn't do well against Guard. Assuming they don't shoot or snap him to death, he kills at most 8 IG in HtH? Not a big deal, those are acceptable casualties!

The problem is that the current Assassins are overpriced and overdone. Reset them around 100 pts, and they're more playable.

For 140 pts, I can take my standard Chaos Lord with JP, AoBF and 5++ save. That's a lot of WS5 S6 AP2 attacks that are good against TEQs and MEQs, along with basic Dreads and Dinobots that squish an Eversor dead.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
That Eversor doesn't do well against Guard. Assuming they don't shoot or snap him to death, he kills at most 8 IG in HtH? Not a big deal, those are acceptable casualties!

The problem is that the current Assassins are overpriced and overdone. Reset them around 100 pts, and they're more playable.

For 140 pts, I can take my standard Chaos Lord with JP, AoBF and 5++ save. That's a lot of WS5 S6 AP2 attacks that are good against TEQs and MEQs, along with basic Dreads and Dinobots that squish an Eversor dead.

And yet were that lord to come face to face with an Eversor, he may not survive to swing. I agree, the assassins generally don't stack up (especially the CC ones, because 40k is very unkind to CC these days), but as with many units their potential is rather universally understated. Also, while 8 IG die in CC, that assumes they have no special weapons, the squad size is ten, they're not veterans, and they didn't break and get run down. If any of the above are true points start coming in. If that Eversor closed with a 3x plasma or 3x melta vet team and cleaned them out, he's near paid back and prevented a lot of anti MEQ or tank fire.

What obsidiankatana is getting at is that the assassins are for highly different purposes. Have a lack of MEQ killing weaponry...Eversor wins out.

Problem is though, everything kills MEQ.

Depends on the matchup. Culexis brutalizes several very powerful psyker-dependent builds, Callidus wrecks anyone who's got long-ranged support pieces and not a lot of melee, Vindicare is murder on armies that rely heavily on upgrade weapons/sergeants.

The answer definitely isn't the Eversor. He may be cool but he doesn't flat-out invalidate certain strategies the way the other three do.

I don't think it has anything to do with CC not being great. They tried to come up with 4 different and useful guys, but the role of solo melee beatstick adds nothing. Most armies can achieve it with someone who can also be part of a squad, and at his cost he's not better for me than St. Celestine who gives up 2 attacks on the charge and 1T to pick up 2+ armor, the ability to get back up, and most importantly a jump pack to be able to go find her next target faster.

You should never put an assassin against troops. Mobs are their weakness. You should only be attacking Elites, MCs, and small Fast Attack or Heavy Support units ONLY!

 ductvader wrote:
What obsidiankatana is getting at is that the assassins are for highly different purposes. Have a lack of MEQ killing weaponry...Eversor wins out.

Problem is though, everything kills MEQ.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Depends on the matchup. Culexis brutalizes several very powerful psyker-dependent builds, Callidus wrecks anyone who's got long-ranged support pieces and not a lot of melee, Vindicare is murder on armies that rely heavily on upgrade weapons/sergeants.

The answer definitely isn't the Eversor. He may be cool but he doesn't flat-out invalidate certain strategies the way the other three do.

These two best sum my points. I'm not claiming the Eversor is good. I was simply pointing out the one con being, simply put, incorrect. But no army comes to mind that can't do what an Eversor does. AP is less in value in 7th than it ever has been (in my experience). RoF and MSU rule the day. Even if he connects to his ideal target, he'll kill a fraction of his points and subsequently die from shooting. Even the Callidus won't do fantastically well, but survives better and is comparable in the damage potential. The Vindicare suffers from combinations of LoS and invul saves, so killing the important targets is quite difficult. But he can damn near guarantee pulling in 15-20pts per round from knocking out a special leader or sergeant. The Culexus merely existing in a certain spot does her job.

That said, I wouldn't take any assassin bar Culexus. They simply do not impact enough to matter. That's not saying they're worthless, but they're not good enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheSilo wrote:
You should never put an assassin against troops. Mobs are their weakness. You should only be attacking Elites, MCs, and small Fast Attack or Heavy Support units ONLY!

Not all troops are mobs. And I will readily throw an Eversor into 20 guardsmen and expect a victory.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
That Eversor doesn't do well against Guard. Assuming they don't shoot or snap him to death, he kills at most 8 IG in HtH? Not a big deal, those are acceptable casualties!

The problem is that the current Assassins are overpriced and overdone. Reset them around 100 pts, and they're more playable.

For 140 pts, I can take my standard Chaos Lord with JP, AoBF and 5++ save. That's a lot of WS5 S6 AP2 attacks that are good against TEQs and MEQs, along with basic Dreads and Dinobots that squish an Eversor dead.

And yet were that lord to come face to face with an Eversor, he may not survive to swing.

I agree, the assassins generally don't stack up (especially the CC ones, because 40k is very unkind to CC these days), but as with many units their potential is rather universally understated.

Also, while 8 IG die in CC, that assumes they have no special weapons, the squad size is ten, they're not veterans, and they didn't break and get run down. If any of the above are true points start coming in.

If that Eversor closed with a 3x plasma or 3x melta vet team and cleaned them out, he's near paid back and prevented a lot of anti MEQ or tank fire.

Being significantly more mobile due to his JP, Chaos Lord gets the jump on the Eversor. The Eversor gets only his base 5 S4 attacks, so 3.3 hits, 1.7 wounding, 1.1 get through the 5++ on average. 2 wounds would be luck, and killing outright would be rare. The Chaos Lord comes in with 10.3 attacks, 5.2 hits, 4.3 wounding, 2.2 through the 4++ dodge. Round 2, the Eversor might get in another wound, but the Chaos Lord cleans up with 8.5 attacks, 4.2 hitting, 3.5 wounding, 1.7 through the dodge. On average, the Chaos Lord overkills the Eversor on the 2nd round, suffering 2 of 3 wounds in the process.

For me, the main difference is utility - it is very rare that Chaos Lord won't get a chance to do something useful. He's not obviously worse (arguably better) than the Eversor in HtH, but he brings more to the table because he has greater versatility and very few bad matchups.

That 8 IG assumed he didn't get shot at, hit and wounded with all 8 attacks. In most cases, he only hits 5 or 6 times, so that's even fewer dudes dead. If he kills the squad outright, then that's bad, because he doesn't get to consolidate into HtH. He stands out with his ass in the breeze, and gets shot to death. That Plasma Vet squad only cost the IG player 105 points, so trading it for a 135 pt Assassin isn't so bad.


Now that I'm working it through, the Eversor is no longer my favorite Assassin. Thanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
That said, I wouldn't take any assassin bar Culexus.

They simply do not impact enough to matter. That's not saying they're worthless, but they're not good enough.

Agree that the Culexus is probably the only good one, and then, as a hard counter against particular strategies.

Not good enough? WS8 BS8 S4 T4 W3 I7 A4(5) Sv4++ is not good enough? The Assassin statline is one of the best in the game! You want WS10 BS10 W5 I10 A5 Sv3+/5++ like an Avatar of Khaine? IMO, that's more than a bit excessive for what is supposed to simply be the best-trained human possible, without augmenting to Space Marine levels.

I take the opposite tack: Assassins have been bumped and buffed to the point that they simply cost too much for what they're trying to be. GW painted them in a corner by loading them up with all sorts of rules that the models have to pay for, with a combination of effects that are too rare to find as a match. The 135-pt Eversor appears to be the poster child for this.

I'd suggest WS5 BS5 S4 T4 I5 A3 W2 Sv4+/5++ for the statline, fewer special rules, and a reduced cost.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Being significantly more mobile due to his JP, Chaos Lord gets the jump on the Eversor. The Eversor gets only his base 5 S4 attacks, so 3.3 hits, 1.7 wounding, 1.1 get through the 5++ on average. 2 wounds would be luck, and killing outright would be rare. The Chaos Lord comes in with 10.3 attacks, 5.2 hits, 4.3 wounding, 2.2 through the 4++ dodge. Round 2, the Eversor might get in another wound, but the Chaos Lord cleans up with 8.5 attacks, 4.2 hitting, 3.5 wounding, 1.7 through the dodge. On average, the Chaos Lord overkills the Eversor on the 2nd round, suffering 2 of 3 wounds in the process.

For me, the main difference is utility - it is very rare that Chaos Lord won't get a chance to do something useful. He's not obviously worse (arguably better) than the Eversor in HtH, but he brings more to the table because he has greater versatility and very few bad matchups.

That 8 IG assumed he didn't get shot at, hit and wounded with all 8 attacks. In most cases, he only hits 5 or 6 times, so that's even fewer dudes dead. If he kills the squad outright, then that's bad, because he doesn't get to consolidate into HtH. He stands out with his ass in the breeze, and gets shot to death. That Plasma Vet squad only cost the IG player 105 points, so trading it for a 135 pt Assassin isn't so bad.


Now that I'm working it through, the Eversor is no longer my favorite Assassin. Thanks.

No problem. Though you may not have accounted for the Eversor's overwatch four-shot full BS overwatch and 3d6 charge distance in the matchup against the Chaos Lord. And you seem to ignore the target potential elimination of an Eversor killing a plasma or melta vet squad, or the fact that he need not kill 8 IG to kill 10 IG. To the first - plasmas and meltas are taken to kill tanks and MEQ/MCs while an Eversor is for killing infantry. If he kills the squad, the IG player has one less option for dealing with the enemies he brought them for while the Eversor user killed exactly what an Eversor is meant to kill. For the second, winning combat and running the squad down is the likely result, which will put the Eversor in the open (assuming no nearby terrain and a poor consolidation roll). And yet in this case, he kills 105pts and draws the fire of another 105pts and I'll call that worthwhile.

Again, not stating that he's the best. Or even that he's all that good. But devaluing him with mathhammer may lead to a false sense of security when you come face to face with one. Because if he does 3d6 charge the assault marines or spawn running with your Lord and cuts him down in a round, you'll be left wondering how in the world it happened.

The overwatch doesn't get through the armor, and 3d6 charge isn't as good as a JP. The 8 IG example was a best case. IG players like me don't depend on a single Vet squad - we have lots of guys with lots of guns.

I have played Eversors allied to my IG for many, many editions. I am fairly aware of what they do.

I am understand the math, and I'm not devaluing him - I'm trying to understand to what extent he is valued at 135 points compared to something that I know is definitely worth 140 points. Sure, I can get unlucky, but over time, things balance out.

Right now, I'm seeing that the best result would be for my Lord to be escorted by Lasher Maulerfiends, because they auto-win against an Eversor.

8 IG killed in CC is the best case. But if 5 die, they're just about as likely to break and get run down as if 8 died - both results leading to all 10 dying. And overwatch may not get through armor, but it does have the capacity to put wounds on. Which forces dice rolls. Which have a chance to fail. I've played Space Marines for a damn long enough time to not even remotely depend on 3+ armor to save the day. I've lost more marines taking armor saves than from low-AP guns easily.

The 135pt price tag is fairly easy to explain - at least from my PoV. It's because he forces a reaction. The capacity for him to inflict damage cannot be ignored. Coupled with infiltration deployment, guns or troops must be redirected to deal with him or he will kill something. Unlike some units, which can be safely ignored, this guy is a clear a present threat which almost always has a target out he can go through without much effort. Leave a unit isolated during deployment, you're probably going to lose it if you don't about-face to drop the Eversor.

IMO, the Eversor and Callidus excel at playing objectives. Using infiltrate it's easy to put them in striking distance of an objective and scaring any potential enemies off of it. A lot of people scoff at the idea, but in my most recent game my eversor held one of four objectives all game long, and no one really wanted to risk their high value units taking him down. At game's end he was the only uncontested objective holder. I kept him out of sight all game and he only killed three marines all game, but without him the game would have been a tie. Which isn't a bad performance for a model that only cost 10% of my army.

I'm liking my Culexus too much.

Even in games when my opponent doesn't bring any psykers... great backline distraction unit.