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It's been a running gag for some time now, so I'm sure that anyone have seen how many things are getting Fear at the moment, which everyone agrees is bonkers, because most armies either automatically ignore Fear via ATSKNF, or has ways around or strengthen their Ld tests. On top of that, Fear rarely does anything of note, as it only reduces enemy troops to WS 1, and the units who can be reduced like so are already dead if in melee, so...

Got me thinking - Might GW be setting up some kind of change? I mean, it's been seen before that GW gives out weird rule changes and new USRs to units that makes no sense, and then later change that USR, and suddenly it all makes sense. It's not unreasonable to think that they might change ATSKNF to work differently when encountering Fear (Properly in a way as to reduce the effect), or that Fear will be changed into something that matters.

Am I off the mark?

It would be nice.

It would never happen, because they would lose sales on Space Marine models. Can't have that.

 krodarklorr wrote:
It would never happen, because they would lose sales on Space Marine models. Can't have that.

How so? We aren't talking losing anything, rather have it change. Besides, it's not like ATSKNF is what sell Marines.

 The Wise Dane wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
It would never happen, because they would lose sales on Space Marine models. Can't have that.

How so? We aren't talking losing anything, rather have it change. Besides, it's not like ATSKNF is what sell Marines.

It was partially joking. Any form of nerf to Imperial armies would get so much negative feedback. And what could they do to ATSKNF that isn't a nerf, but makes Fear useful?

Tau, necrons, orks, AM, chaos space marines, sisters, eldar, dark eldar, nids outside synapse.

Barring fearless units, all of those are susceptible to fear. That's actually a healthy chunk of the armies.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
It would never happen, because they would lose sales on Space Marine models. Can't have that.

How so? We aren't talking losing anything, rather have it change. Besides, it's not like ATSKNF is what sell Marines.

It was partially joking. Any form of nerf to Imperial armies would get so much negative feedback. And what could they do to ATSKNF that isn't a nerf, but makes Fear useful?

Well, what I'm thinking is that, when it comes down to it, nothing really. ATSKNF let the unit in question auto-pass any Ld that has to do with regaining a fleeing unit, which is both fluffy ("Steady, brothers! We cannot let this foul beast round us up - We are Astartes, and we know no fear! Charge!") and good crunchy. Astartes can experience fear in general, but know when to temper it, and when a unit flees in the TT, it doesn't need to be off fear, but of tactical choice or simple desperation.

What I'm trying to get at is that Fear could be a rule like Fantasy - "Any unit charged by [Unit with Fear USR] must make a Ld test - If failed, the unit must flee the battle immideatly. The enemy my do a Sweeping Advance afterwards". This won't nerf units with ATSKNF, as they cannot be swept, and will severely hurt anything else.

Yeah, but of those listed, Tau, 'Crons, AM, Sisters and Most Eldar are going to get their buts handed to them if anything gets into CC anyway, with only Eldar taking an actual hit that matters to WS.

DE and Orks will still chop you updue to weight of attacks.

'Nids outside Synapse are such a non occurance that it really doesn't matter.

So you're left with the redheaded stepchildren of the marine flavours who actually care about fear, since they are decent in CC, but don't usually have the weight of attacks to not care about fear. This is only further twisting the knife when compared to their exalted Codex following bretheren.

Yep, it's a trap I always fall for.
Whenever I see something with Fear, I think: "Ooh, cool!"
Five minutes later I remember how too many things just ignore it.
I had that with Death Masks for BA and I had this with MSS.

It's almost as annoying as the sudden 'Challenge-focus' they seem to be throwing into everything.

Drasius wrote:
Yeah, but of those listed, Tau, 'Crons, AM, Sisters and Most Eldar are going to get their buts handed to them if anything gets into CC anyway, with only Eldar taking an actual hit that matters to WS.

DE and Orks will still chop you updue to weight of attacks.

'Nids outside Synapse are such a non occurance that it really doesn't matter.

So you're left with the redheaded stepchildren of the marine flavours who actually care about fear, since they are decent in CC, but don't usually have the weight of attacks to not care about fear. This is only further twisting the knife when compared to their exalted Codex following bretheren.

Them hitting on 5's and you on 3's can make the difference. Your fear-causing unit may be diminished from shooting or previous combat. Against any of those things listed, fear might give you the edge needed to win that next combat.

Fear doesn't come up all that often, but when it does, it's actually pretty good.

Fear is fine if it's built in to a unit. It either works or it doensn't, no big deal. It's Fear as an upgrade that's ridiculous. Not unlike all the stuff in the Dark Eldar Codex that is completely negated by ATSKNF. Silly.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
It would never happen, because they would lose sales on Space Marine models. Can't have that.

How so? We aren't talking losing anything, rather have it change. Besides, it's not like ATSKNF is what sell Marines.

It was partially joking. Any form of nerf to Imperial armies would get so much negative feedback. And what could they do to ATSKNF that isn't a nerf, but makes Fear useful?

GW has been nerfing Space Marines pretty steadily for the last 15 years, lol.

I don't think so.

They're actually making units with ATSKNF immune to ever more stuff. e.g. there are several different weapons in the new DE book that are specifically make units with ATSKNF immune to them (yey for useless stuff).

I'm really hoping they change it so they are immune to fear after the first turn of combat.
They recompose them self after some gigantic creature, or some scary dude who has a reputation for killing hundreds of people at a time. Even if you aren't afraid of something like that, the shock of it screaming in your face would make you think twice.

I mostly just feel that the Fear ability isn't really represented in a way that fits the genre. I mean, the horrors to be found in the 40K universe are many, and the only way to represent them here is just... WS 1. I don't really know how to fight because you are scary.

I want fleeing units, units that might not even fight back when struck with Fear or something like that - Something that cements the power of fear as one of the most powerful and dangorus things in the galaxy (It's what Marines are made to fight, after all). ATSKNF don't need to remove Fear interely, it can just be some sort of lessening of the effect of Fear instead, a compromise of sorts...

I think Fear should have been a LD modifier. Morale checks caused by a fear causing enemy or weapon are at an additional -1 (or -2... you'd have to test it).

Or make ATSKNF just let you re-roll failed Fear, Pinning and Morale tests and pass them on a Single D6 roll of 3+, 4+ or 5+ depending on how easy you want to make it. That way instead of being straight up immune, they have a small chance (would be looking at 10% or less depending on the difficulty of the re-roll at Ld9) to fail.

That way ATSKNF still gives a noticeable improvement to Fear, Pinning and Morale tests, but still makes Fearless an actual upgrade. The Fear and Pinning rules will become useful to the armies that have them when facing Marines (which seem to be by far the most commonly encountered army).

GW stopping with marine favoritism? Not gonna happen.

 Sigvatr wrote:
GW stopping with marine favoritism? Not gonna happen.

I was surprised when they added Fear to Blood Angels.
For a moment I was afraid the world would go under due to the favoritism-paradox.

 docdoom77 wrote:
I think Fear should have been a LD modifier. Morale checks caused by a fear causing enemy or weapon are at an additional -1 (or -2... you'd have to test it).

I like this a lot, actually. It makes sense that it is in the chaos of close combat that the unit realises how scaaary the enemy is, and tries to run off. A Ld modifier of -2 should be fair I feel, Fearless ignoring this and ATSKNF giving a re-roll, maybe, or simply making it -1 Ld instead.

It would do a lot for CC armies, because of how effective Sweeps are at removing stuff. Especially MCs I can see being really good linebreakers, suddenly.

I like the idea of ATSKNF giving a reroll, rather than flat-out immunity.

I always laugh when people talk about Marines being immune to gameplay nerfs, because it shows a stunning lack of awareness of history.

Throughout 5th, the only good Marine factions were Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Grey Knights- the others were either average or slightly below average.

Throughout all of sixth, no marine army was better than just average- not even GK. Sixth edition was entirely the reign of xeno armies. And even now, with SM and GK being pretty decent, it's not like regular old marines are all that fantastic. The only competitive units in C: SM are White Scar bikers, Centurions and drop-pods. Everything else is middling to trash. Grey Knights are suspended entirely by Dreadknights, and would be be meandering around the bottom-tier with Dark Angels if they didn't have them.

So... on what basis is this sentiment that Marines are the golden-child of Games Workshop and are therefore immune to getting gak on mechanically stemming from?

All the shiiiiny new toys they keep getting!

Maybe add a Terrify USR? Units with ATSKNF are immune to fear but not terrify. Units with fearless are immune to terrify and everything else as usual.

Forgot to add TFC to the list of competitive vanilla SM units.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Forgot to add TFC to the list of competitive vanilla SM units.

You forget, when Xenos get something, it's because it's a long time coming, but if Marines get something, it's because they are GW's favorites.

Nevermind that Tau, Eldar and Daemons ruled 6th! Nevermind that Necrons were the kings of 5th and the start of 6th! Space Marines are totally OP!

 Crazyterran wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Forgot to add TFC to the list of competitive vanilla SM units.

You forget, when Xenos get something, it's because it's a long time coming, but if Marines get something, it's because they are GW's favorites.

Nevermind that Tau, Eldar and Daemons ruled 6th! Nevermind that Necrons were the kings of 5th and the start of 6th! Space Marines are totally OP!

Pretty sure Grey Knights were the Kings of 5th... Wardcrons came in near the end of 5th Edition and while they could beat Grey Knights, I'm fairly certain that Grey Knights still were usually coming out on top.

 vipoid wrote:
I like the idea of ATSKNF giving a reroll, rather than flat-out immunity.

This is exactly what I thought would be appropriate.

Space Marines are supposed to be kinda badass, I hope they don't receive any changes that would make them less so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Space Marines are supposed to be kinda badass, I hope they don't receive any changes that would make them less so.

 The Wise Dane wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
It would never happen, because they would lose sales on Space Marine models. Can't have that.

How so? We aren't talking losing anything, rather have it change. Besides, it's not like ATSKNF is what sell Marines.

It would drown the internets with a wave of I'M SELLING STUFF I HATE GW