Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

As the title says, I want to try to make Dark Angels perform well, or a least be able to win in my meta (which I consider semi-competitive), but also in in general. Dark Angels have my favorite fluff for any Space Marine chapter are are probably in my top 3 for factions along with Dkok and the Inquisition. My problem is their codex isn't really that great, Deathwing is cool but not that great. Ravenwing IMO can do pretty well but are outmatched on the tabletop by White Scars. In my area we have about 12 players but the ones I primarily have trouble with play Eldar and Tau ( ), as to be expected. Can Dark Angels be played to stand a chance against those armies?IMO an alpha strike is needed to try and take out the most dangerous units. I am thinking of an army loosely based on this:

(Interrogator?) chaplain with 5 DWK. These guys are mostly a distraction. Drop in turn 1 and try to draw fire from other things. If possible they will try to get a charge off and smite.

Libby on a bike with max size command squad. Libby will have a PFG, not sure about upgrades for command squad, probably apothecary

2 Tac squad in DP with melta

Dreadnought in DP with MM and HF

Bike squad, not sure what to arm them with but they will have a MM attack bike.

4-6 Black Knights

Vindicator, a distraction carnifex

, I don't have my codex on my and I may have forgotten a few things, but this should be around 1850. Thoughts? Can this list or any dark angels list be competivie against upper tier armies?

Personally, I think the way to go is mixed pods and DWA. In your first round of Pods, put the following:

Vet Squad with Combi-plasma or Melta depending on what you need.

Tactical Squads with Plasma/Melta, in Special, Heavy and Combi flavour

Attached Librarian with Psychic Shriek, for anti-Riptide duty.

Use these to target the enemy heavy hitters. On T2, launch the rest of your pods and your Deathwing Assault. I'd pack a squad of Knights, a VenDread with Assault Cannon and HF, and whatever else takes your fancy in TDA or PA. You can also throw Locator Beacons on the first wave of Pods if you wish, for added reliability.

You'll need to practice target prioritisation, force concentration and using terrain to your advantage to block LoS/provide cover from as much as the enemy line as possible. The idea is to get up close fast, at which point you can get stuck into CC (even with the Tacticals) and should beat Tau and Eldar pretty squarely.

If you need points somewhere else, don't bother with an interrogator chaplain. The standard can do nearly as well for a chunk less points, so only go for the upgrade if you definitely have spare points.

Also, just a warning, while deathwing knights do wreck absolutely everything, watch out if your opponent is suit-heavy tau. The jet moves mean it's hard to get in if you don't corner them.

If you're up against Tau, definitely go Shriek like Paradigm recommends, it's spectacular at killing riptides and broadsides. The black knights too are probably one of the best counters to heavy units like that, since we don't have grav.

Not sure if you own the models for this but, 2 Venerable Land Raiders with Tech-marines with Power Field Generators inside is pretty devastating.

The Land Raider has a 4++, can repair hull points and even if someone scores a Explodes result, you can make them re-roll it.

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
Not sure if you own the models for this but, 2 Venerable Land Raiders with Tech-marines with Power Field Generators inside is pretty devastating.

The Land Raider has a 4++, can repair hull points and even if someone scores a Explodes result, you can make them re-roll it.

I'm afraid that the most recent errata nerfed the PFG. It now only affects the models embarked upon a transport, so no more unkillable bawkses for us DA guys...
Btw I think that the strategy you suggested is probably the reason they nerfed it. It is that good. Doesn't affect me too much as I don't own any LRs yet. Instead of PFGs to pump them, try a command squad with the Dakkapole (If they're LR Crusaders). Whole lotta shootin' goin' on!

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
Not sure if you own the models for this but, 2 Venerable Land Raiders with Tech-marines with Power Field Generators inside is pretty devastating.

The Land Raider has a 4++, can repair hull points and even if someone scores a Explodes result, you can make them re-roll it.

I'm afraid that the most recent errata nerfed the PFG. It now only affects the models embarked upon a transport, so no more unkillable bawkses for us DA guys...
Btw I think that the strategy you suggested is probably the reason they nerfed it. It is that good. Doesn't affect me too much as I don't own any LRs yet. Instead of PFGs to pump them, try a command squad with the Dakkapole (If they're LR Crusaders). Whole lotta shootin' goin' on!

its pretty good. I've used it before. The issue comes with armies prepared for land raiders. The 4++ can still be had by puting a techmarine or libby behind them on a bike/jump pack, but I find even then its not overly great. The thing is, you throw pretty much all your points into this strategy that revolves around 24 twin linked bolter shots (which can very easily become 24 twin linked snap firing bolter shots from shaken/stunned). its pretty much only good at mowing down guardsmen/ork type infantry. Now look at yourself and ask yourself. Did you really need help with that? Really? sure, you can throw out a good amount of shots, but anything with a 4+ or better save (or guard/orks in ruins) will pretty easily shake it off. And youve thrown a HUGE portion of your list into doing this ONE thing. I find the best way to do this is to put a dw squad in one and a dw command squad in the other. Roll up on the enemy throwing out 24 twin linked shots/ snapshots per turn. Once at the enemy, unload with the banner bearer within 3" of one or both land raiders, get one more good turn of shooting, then start assaulting. I find its also worthwhile to include belial with a heavy flamer squad to try to take out long range weapons that can hurt them (like pathfinders or lascannon teams). IMO, i much more prefer a null deployment mass deep strike terminator type army. The somewhat high risk of the drop can be nullified pretty easily as long as you are careful with the deployment. Of course, stuff still happens. I've had a squad scatter 12" directly onto impassable terrain and get destroyed (1/6 chance, even if you mishap). It happens. Being careful can make that an extreme rarity though. Its also why I prefer normal DW terminators to DW knights. You can utilize their alpha strike potential and split fire weapons at their needed targets while denying your opponent getting the first shot off, regardless.

I also find a pod full of vets to be amazing. You can kit them out for full on suicide drop, but you don't have to pay the sternguard price for special ammo. Score IMO. I don't usually expect them to live long enough to utilize something like that anyways.

I've been told ravenwing is pretty great, and if you bring a dakka banner, you get much the same effect as the twin land raiders approach. I've tried it, didn't have much success, but maybe that's because i'm not really a fan of bikers. I much prefer the alpha strike/surgical strike approach of the deathwing than the hit-and-run ravenwing. Much too tricksy for me. I can also see how black knights are stupid good (when paired with a darkshroud they have 2+ cover!), but i've never owned any black knights, so i can't really attest to that.

Honestly, I reccomend checking out the bolter and chainsword dark angels subforum, if you're really interested in this. They're very active, and focused on the one thing. Dark angels are kind of tricky space marines IMO. You really need to know alot about them and how they operate to use them effectively. They have some unnecessary points costs CSM gets for free, but on the same note, we have some REALLY good toys they dont get too (div libbys, PFG, dakka pole, DW knights, fearless termies, hit and run and scout without needing to buy a special character (though you do need one for ravenwing, so that points kind of moot (THOUGH HE HAS A PLASMA CANNON JETBIKE, HOW AWESOME IS THAT?))

dark angels cant be competitive im sorry, either play another army for competitive environments, or play the dark angels codex using a 5th edition BRB against other armies using their 5th edition codex.

the DA codex is a 6th edition dex that thinks its still 5th edition and we are playing in a 7th edition BRB. which is the exact same problem chaos marines have (but thats another discussion for another day).

now can dark angels make tactically sound and competent armies? yes but can they go around tangling with deathstars, alpha rushdowns, or beastly gunlines no they cant, they cant even hope to do so. they will get rolled up and tossed aside almost every time (barring extreme cases of RNG/acts of god (such as an eldar jetseer forgetting to cast magic during their turn or getting owned on DTW rolls)).

deathwing suck because terminators suck, ravenwing suck because white scars do it better, and everything else in our dex to offset the other two groups faults are horribly under evolved compared to their other chapter counterparts. single wing armies for competitive play are a subpar, and tri wings are basically an effort in futility, dual wings are probably going to be the most effective but again other armies can do their gimmicks better than they can.

the dark angel codex is totally obsolete in the wake of every single codex that has come after barring perhaps the orks, csm's and militarum tempestus.

and this comes from another dark angel i know my book and i can happily go unit by unit and breakdown the extras for you to share with you why exactly we are so terrible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
Not sure if you own the models for this but, 2 Venerable Land Raiders with Tech-marines with Power Field Generators inside is pretty devastating.

The Land Raider has a 4++, can repair hull points and even if someone scores a Explodes result, you can make them re-roll it.

you cant do that anymore, was errat'd

this is not me ghating on my own army, this is not me discarding the book. this is me sitting down and calling facts facts. you cant get blood from a stone and the DA codex might as well by a 4lb slab of granite. i hope, i really do that in the future games workshop does something about this and quit making is the ugly duckling of the space marine books and let someone else be the bottom of the totem pole for a change, i want to be able to field the units i want without the fear of getting curb stomped into the mud for doing it, unlike the current risks i run trying to field say asmodai, or the LSV. lots of things need to change within the dark angels codex before we will ever have an answer to the current meta lists we see today. and so for now i firmly believe one should steer clear of netlisters if you have intent to field your angels and expect some kind of chance to win. this is why i swore off fighting eldar ever again, and this is why i am very selective of who i choose to play with. i tend to have scouted you long before i decide to play with you such as watched you play at one of the local stores, or lurked on your threads on our local tabletop wargaming website.

I played a null deployed DW/Belial/Terminator/Knights army the other day I thought it seemed kind of good. Emperors will stalemate. I lost on secondary objectives.

Its semi intimidating to have brought a TAC list with tankbustas and lootas and have no ranged AP2 and have an opponent drop soo many termies and knights on one side of the board.

Landraiders with 4++ from a biker libby and a dakkabanner are solid. The thing is that mellee and ROF is becoming more and more important. DA can pull those.

 Rismonite wrote:
I played a null deployed DW/Belial/Terminator/Knights army the other day I thought it seemed kind of good. Emperors will stalemate. I lost on secondary objectives.

Its semi intimidating to have brought a TAC list with tankbustas and lootas and have no ranged AP2 and have an opponent drop soo many termies and knights on one side of the board.

On top of that, unless your opponent is an eldar that can just zoom away, they now have to contend with all that on THEIR side of the field, which is about to charge several different targets (probably) and they probably just blew up a whole side. The change to 7th allowing a null deployment made it a fairly viable strategy IMO.

 Rismonite wrote:
I played a null deployed DW/Belial/Terminator/Knights army the other day I thought it seemed kind of good. Emperors will stalemate. I lost on secondary objectives.

Its semi intimidating to have brought a TAC list with tankbustas and lootas and have no ranged AP2 and have an opponent drop soo many termies and knights on one side of the board.

against a lower range army like orks the fights are much fairer even against other marines dark angels can do competently, the problem is when we start discussing the traditionally benchmark xenos like crons or tau where things become much more straight forward.

I've had a lot of success with Black Knights and with using Deathwing Assault to get places; landing squads somewhere the other guy can't see them with all his big stuff, target saturation, and gunfire are things to keep in mind. The power field makes mechanized Dark Angels surprisingly effective; with Forge World tanks it can be fairly competitive instead of a support trick that lacks the firepower to finish anything. The only hole Forge World or Allies are strictly necessary to plug is fighting target-saturation Wave Serpents or Flyers/FMCs; the Sicarian and the Contemptor are great tools for that.

Librarius Conclave, you won't be disappointed. 3-5 Librarians(one of which is Ezekiel) all sharing warp charges.

As far as I know, Ravenwing + Deathwing and Ravenwing Knights does okay. You'd have to ally in decent AA though.

I am trying out a triple landraider list with biker PFG support for my next game (Two regular and one crusader. DWT's will be 5x incl. CML/TH/SS

and

have been thinking about pods and DW as mentioned above. I dont have the models for that anymore but it is worth a try for those dedicated DA players that do.

Use forge world.

(I think Iron hands are better with fw still.)

 Draco wrote:
Use forge world.

(I think Iron hands are better with fw still.)

IH however dont get good magic at all so they struggle without taking inquisitors against heavy magic shenanigans

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Librarius Conclave, you won't be disappointed. 3-5 Librarians(one of which is Ezekiel) all sharing warp charges.

I'm considering this, since most DA lists take at least one Librarian anyway. How do you really make it work? Might be worth its own thread oh here it is http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/633356.page

The only thing that is competitive about dark angels is ravenwing.

Mono ravenwing is good when you spam minimum bikers squads, support by the banner of devastation en black knight squads.

Another viable option is to ally with white scars, giving you access to EW chapter masters, gravs and thunderfire cannons.