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A new kid started coming to our store, he's just getting started in 40k. He's got just over 1500 points IIRC in DA. 2 of the DV starter stuff, some scouts, some extra tac marines, so nothing particularly amazing, just a basic, balanced army.

I could tell that he was new as he didn't know a lot of his special rules, and I had to remind him a lot of weapon profiles, bike movement, etc. This I was perfectly fine with, as everyone struggles with this stuff when they start off. Heck, it still takes me a minute to remember the melee hit chart sometimes, and I always forget the perils chart despite running a librarian every game.

Anyways, I was trying to help him out a bit when we were setting up, suggesting good places to put units, how to utilize the homing beacons on the bikes, what he should try to do to counter my units. During the game I'd often point out what weapons are most effective against which units, whether it's better to rapid fire or try charging, whether or not his bikes should jink. I even created a "tailored" list, one that would be easier to deal with, such as limited vehicles as he was lacking anti-tank firepower, didn't pick the best disciplines for my librarians (pyromancy lol) and I didn't go for a turn 2 deathwing knight charge. Overall did my best to take it easy on him.

It stayed a somewhat close game (in my favor the whole time), and I did win in the end. Honestly though, the only reason I won is that he hardly listened to any advice I gave him. He refused to jink his bikes (even when they were in rapid range of my black knights and he lost a squad). He started his terminators on the board directly across from lascannons and a plasma cannon, with poor spacing too. He put his special weapons in the front of his tac squads even after I explained that they'll be the first to die. He put his scouts out in the open instead of a ruin, in range of heavy bolters.

Don't get me wrong, he wasn't rude about anything, he just thought he'd do better without the advice. Did he think I was trying to trick him into making bad decisions? When the store owner had looked at the board halfway through and saw the (remnants of) the scout snipers he suggested moving them, and then the kid did.

I'm debating now whether I should run my regular list against him or not. My regular list will absolutely steamroll him if he plays that way. Would he be more likely to listen to my advice if I thoroughly beat him, or would that push him away from playing me again? I'm fine playing that crap list I made again, but at the same time will he learn how to play better if I keep taking it easy on him? I just don't want him to go up against some of the guys that will offer no advice and see him get discouraged from playing here.

I would go easy on him for the time being, or at least until he gets some semblance of his footing. It's usually a good idea just to let new players win their first games before turning up the heat. Getting steamrolled will probably make a new player not want to play anymore, rather than looking into the meta.

Judging by what you have said, you appear to have been doing everything right in terms of introducing the new guy to the game. Took it easy on him, offered advice, didn't purposely steamroll.

Honestly, you've given the new guy a starter match, so in future matches I'd feel free to bring your full might forth. Or... you can have some fun with it by using fluffy lists, but playing at your full skill, overall making it a fun fight for both players.

In summary, do as you see fit, you've given the beginner his "starter game", now you may fight at him at full strength if you wish. Fluffy lists could still be really fun to mess with though, or experimental tactics that you have thought about using but haven't used in more competitive matches.

-Praise The Emperor-

I understand him, in a way.
Even if you have his best interest in heart and he knows it, one can be a bit reluctant to do exactly as the opponent tells him to.
Otherwise he might feel as if you're playing his army instead of him. So even the bad decisions can easily feel like a better option than good ones that are offered by someone else.

Continue to play fair aganst him, use casual lists and be sure to give some advice when needed.
But do not force it and don't be offended if he doesn't accept it. Making mistakes is the essential part of one's road to becoming a good player.

Hmmm, time to come up with a new fluffy list perhaps. Maybe field all of my terminators? Haven't used that in awhile, and I think with all his plasma it wouldn't be too hard for him to pull a win. Maybe throw in a dreadnought to teach him about vehicles (since he can't handle a land raider with his army).

You know, I'd ask him. Asking us is fine, but we don't know exactly what he's looking for. He might not either, but he'll probably have a better guess.

Anyways, next time you play, ask him if he'd like another game where you help him, or if he wants you to show him the hard way with a stronger list (and, of course, secretly playing more towards your best as well).

Some people would take a punch in the face as a challenge, and some would just get really demoralized and not want to play anymore. He's going to be the best person to tell you which he'd prefer.

I'd say you were fine. Offer beginner advice, and if he doesn't take it, its his loss. Best way to learn what not to do is to have it happen and take some big hits.

There's nothing wrong with playing a new player and beating him if you took a easy list and gave him advice which he didn't take.

Teaching him by steamrolling isn't fun for anyone, but you didn't do that.

I would go ahead with playing the super fluffy (and competitively weak) armies as your objective isn't to teach him tactics but make the game enjoyable.

As I have recently taken up Warhammer Fantasy im still learning the tactical ropes, but a lot of that is going AGAINST people's advice to see for yourself why it's a bad idea. Once you see first hand why something is bad it helps your understanding of the game just as much as making a good move (perhaps even more so).

Give advice, play an army that is fun to play against, don't worry if they do the exact opposite because they'll learn eventually. (Case in point, the scouts he deployed in the open and later moved to cover.)

What I often tend to do is to play an 'easy' game and keep my advice to a minimum.
Then after the game I have a feedback-talk where I explain what I did, why I did it and what he could have done better.

Sounds like you're on the right path. As long as you're not berating him or ROFL stomping him with net lists, I think you're doing good. Give him advice, make sure he doesn't feel too discouraged, and encourage him to ask questions

I remember the first couple of guys to teach me to play and it was probably one of the best games of 40k I've ever had. I lost both, but what they taught me and the friends I made was worth it

OP seems Ok.
It is interesting he took the store owner's advice readily rather than your own earlier (even if it made sense).
I am wondering if a full butt-handing may establish some cred.?
Asking him is not a bad idea on what he wants to see challenge / help-wise, it is after all being nice and giving an introduction.

It's kind of funny, when his plasma was about to fire on my bikes I thought I'd prove my point about jinking, that it's almost always a good idea if you're taking plasma. I was all "Well, you're rapid firing with a plasma gun and shooting a plasma cannon, so that'll probably be 3 or 4 hits... if I don't jink, I'll probably lose them all."

I failed 3 of my 4+, squad got wiped. Point was not proved.

 kingbobbito wrote:
It's kind of funny, when his plasma was about to fire on my bikes I thought I'd prove my point about jinking, that it's almost always a good idea if you're taking plasma. I was all "Well, you're rapid firing with a plasma gun and shooting a plasma cannon, so that'll probably be 3 or 4 hits... if I don't jink, I'll probably lose them all."
I failed 3 of my 4+, squad got wiped. Point was not proved.

This I hate to say is a fine example of this set of rules.
The darn dice gods rule with an iron fist more than your "reasonable" tactics do.
This is why the list selection has such emphasis: you do not get to roll to see what units you get (If GW is reading this... nothing to see here...).
I hate it when people do good things and get punished for it... hehe... I feel your pain.

Well... it's 40k. 40k is a game where wonky stuff happens because of random number generators, not a game where better tactics necessarily means you win.

The weird thing, too, is that 40k has so few die rolls, that the law of large numbers doesn't apply. I knew someone who took plasma on everything because it almost never killed a model. In his case, plasma guns were safer than what a normal person should expect.

Sometimes you've just got to play to what you're lucky with.

Really depends on the kid.

From the way he's reacted to your advice he could be one of two things. Mentally challenged (no offence intended) OR clever enough not to trust the supposed opponent even when it sounds like good advice. Determine what it is. If it's intelligence, then sure - give him some actual fights and see if he's up to the challenge.

If he's intelligent give him the hardest fights you can. I find that being on the losing side makes you play to the best of your ability and makes you pay more attention on how to actually win. I've always been that way and always learnt that way. Hell I learnt chess from an older kid at school who beat me every lunchtime for 2 years (he was a county champion and I was pretty average).

Be careful though, if he isn't like me.. he might get put off by losing so much. Keep an eye on him and see if he steps up to the challenge or goes cold... obviously move on from there.

To be fair, everything he did had at least some element of logic to it. He told me he was putting his special weapons towards the front so they'd be more likely to get in range, and if they were in the back I could DS behind him. He didn't want to jink because he'd snap fire next round. He didn't want to DS because his terminators "have good guns". He didn't pay for camo cloaks on his scouts so he didn't see the benefit of putting them in ruins, it's still a 4+ save (I don't think he fully understood assault cannons and HBs ignore that). He didn't want to combat squad as that would "leave the squads more vulnerable" (he couldn't fire his plasma cannons the first two turns as a result).

Sounds like you should start giving him a fight and see how he handles it

I can kind of understand his feeling. Don't give him advice during the game. Let him play his way, and show him where he went wrong afterwards. Its no fun to be told what to do every step of the way.

Warden wrote:
I can kind of understand his feeling. Don't give him advice during the game. Let him play his way, and show him where he went wrong afterwards. Its no fun to be told what to do every step of the way.

I did my best not to just say "move this here because I'm doing this" or something dumb like that. It was more of, like when he was about to infiltrate his scouts, "now remember, their armor isn't as tough, buildings make scouts a lot more likely to survive heavy weapons fire". Or when I was about to unload with plasma on his bikes "did you want to jink? They'll get a cover save against the plasma."

I mean, I guess you could take that as telling him what to do, but keep in mind I was largely trying to make sure he knew all the rules. What did irk me a little is that he hardly knew any of his special rules, like when I asked him if he wanted to scout his bikes he had never heard of it, he didn't know about the teleport beacons on them.... I wanted to make sure that he hadn't missed stuff about jinking, hammer of wrath, etc.

And I'm almost certain he hadn't looked at the weapons section, didn't realize that the plasma cannon was blast

It's all just stuff you learn. He is a seal now, no clubbing and keep other clubbars away

It is the store owner's duty to teach him. Just play your best when against him and don't bring anything too crazy.

I think you did the right thing. A few years ago when I wanted to try MTG out I went to a club and played with barely any idea of how the game works. A skilled player proceeded to kick my arse over several rounds but each time he explained what was going on so learnt the game quickly.

I don't think any reasonable person can get into a game like this without thinking they will lose the first few times they play.

You learn more about how to play by losing, than you do by winning. When i started playing i had an epic losing streak, but each week i came closer and closer to winning. When i finally drew a game i felt it was a triumph, and not long after i had a truly epic winning streak.

The key for me was that i was playing against experienced people, and there wasn't a TFG to be seen. My opponents didn't tone down their game, but would explain what they were doing and why. in my turn they wouldn't give advice about what to do, but helpfully remind me if i forgot to move or shoot or use abilities. Occassionally they would make deliberate mistakes to see if i noticed and took advantage. And once i'd mastered that they would make similar mistakes as bait, again to see if i noticed.

After the game they would tell me what i did wrong, help me with army selection (get rid of gear you don't need) offer advice on how to use cover, how to do basic math hammer in my head and so forth.

I think if i had just had games where i was clobbered it would have quickly disheartened me and i may not have persevered.


From my own experience of teaching new people. Taking a full army can be a bit overwhelming, even if you can make up 1500 points, it can be more help to play smaller games.
if your collection is 1500 points, then a game of 1000 points will allow you to try your hand at army building rather than 'take what you got' which is where a lot of newer players will face problems. there are also fewer units on the table, so not as much to keep track of, and keeping track can seem a bit overwhelming at first (there will always be something you forget)

all in all, you are doing the right thing, but you should probably ask him if he wants help, and how he wants you to help.

Some folks learn by asking, some folks learn by failing - most are somewhere in between.

I don't mind asking questions or advice, and I certainly don't mind losing. Every time I see something, I remember it (which is a curse...). As such, after a few cycles, I've got the idea. After a few more, I'm breaking even on the fight. In a very short time span beyond that, I am obliterating you. I remember your formations, your mannerisms, your thought process. I'm essentially Borg without the tubes and wires.


And then? I usually get bored and move onto something else That is just my nature -- makes me a killer programmer and keeper of lore, but also murder on my wallet/hobbies.

Sounds like the OP did everything right. If the kid doesn't listen, for whatever reason, then that's on him.
It's hard to make people push past their preconceived notions as far as what tactics (or units) are good. Sounds like that's what this kid might have been doing.
I find that happens a lot with new players; someone (or themself) has gotten it in their heads that x and y are awesome, and should be run this way and that. As a result, they don't understand that the nuances of the game throw all they think they know right out the window.

I'd suggest gradually escalating the lists and tactics being played against him, so he can see how things work. Better yet, try to get a game in where he plays someone else, and you can coach him or give him advice.
At the end of the day, though, remember that you can lead a horse to water...

My first game of 6th edition when I was trying to relearn 40k was a total disaster. I suffered a brain injury at work during 5th edition had a ton of problem( memory loss, lost my sight in my left eye, vertigo, cognitive problems, ect...). Guy told me sure I will help teach you 40k I pulled out a old list I had laying around for 1750 pts. His list contained 3 hell drakes which destroyed my ork army by the end of turn two. I learned absolutely nothing about how to play the game, so my advice is to take it easy on the new guy. Remember you were the new guy at some point in your gaming community

When I was the new guy I started off playing 200 points KT, so there was no real possibility of steamrolling (although I did lose my first 3 games). The only downside is that I wasn't fully familiar with all of my special rules, as you're probably never going to use hit&run. This kid insisted though that he wanted to play a full size game, so figured I wouldn't pressure him into trying something easier to manage.

Unleash the dogs of war.
Play a "reasonable" list and see where it goes.
Explain where needed if he seems confused.
Just play the games, he may study more after the game based on what he saw.
I think you have done the introduction and now just plain experience will do the rest.
Might as well have some fun now and not be all worried of discouraging, losing is part of playing games: I always learned more from losing than winning.

I'd suggest taking it slowly. Nothing is worse than driving a player away from a game because someone tossed a multiple-Riptides list or a White Lion deathstar or EHaley or something equally obnoxious and difficult to counter at him when he was just starting out.

Don't throw him to the wolves - that's more likely to drive him away from 40k than anything else. Training wheels are the most efficient way to teach people something as complex as a tabletop wargame.

I think what OP described is pretty much the way the first few games should go - use a relatively non-competitive list, and play in such a way that you demonstrate various aspects of the game (e.g., initiate assaults even if you have a shooty army). Those few initial games are more about exploring the game space and getting a feel for what sort of decisions you need to make. Trying to keep the game close is good... but as the teacher, you SHOULD try to win those first few games, if only to give the student some adversity to overcome. The more games you play, the more competitive you should be playing as a teacher - that means a combination of playing well, and bringing more competitive lists. Once you've played 5-10 games, then start bringing lists that are better than what he's bringing - force him to start taking into consideration list building as a strategic part of the game. Beyond that, it's all about just playing a lot and trying to improve.