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Chaos Boon Table:
-Spawnhood: If a *unit* rolls this result, randomly determine the unfortunate recipient of the Chaos Gods' blessing. If the unit was locked in close-combat, so is the newly created Spawn.
-Replace Bloated w/ : Gain D3 Wounds. A unit that receives this boon regains D3 wounds worth of lost models.
-Icy Aura: Enemies in B2B have -1 WS and -1 Initiative.
-Blade of Chaos: A unit that receives this boon must select one type of weapon for this bonus. Mutilator Weapons count as one weapon for this purpose.
-Witch-Eater: A *unit* with this boon that passes a Deny the Witch roll inflicts only one S6 AP 2 hit.
-Gun Morph: A unit that receives this boon must select one type of weapon for this bonus. Obliterator Weapons count as one weapon for this purpose.
-Dark Apotheosis: A Psyker retains its mastery level and any and all powers.


General:
-Heldrakes/Forgefiends/Maulerfiends may take items from the Chaos Vehicle Armory.
-Hades Autocannon is AP 3.
-Power Scourge has Specialist Weapon, replaces WS debuff w/ Rampage.

[EDIT]Gifts of Mutation[EDIT]
Gifts of Mutation is part of the Chaos Armory now.
Point costs pending.

[EDIT]Though it's a wishlist item, I haven't put thought into how to Mark vehicles yet. [EDIT]

Psychic Lores:

Lore of Tzeentch:

Signature Spell: "Glean Magic". WC Cost: Special.
Glean Magic is a Malediction that targets an enemy Psyker within 18" of the Sorcerer. Nominate a power the enemy Psyker knows; the WC to cast this power is equal to the power's default WC cost + 1.
If you succeed in casting Glean Magic, the Sorcerer now knows the Psyker Power for the rest of the game.
(Example: Ahriman sees Eldrad, thinks Fortune would be a lovely power to have. Since Fortune is WC2, Glean Magic is a WC3 power).
Boon of Mutation: Blessing w/ Range 12". Target a friendly non-vehicle unit from Codex: Chaos Space Marines. Roll on the Chaos Boon Table for the unit, discarding results of Dark Apotheosis. This Boon is temporary and lasts until the start of your next Psychic Phase.
Doombolt: As is.
Wind of Chaos: Torrent.

Lore of Nurgle:
Weapon Virus forces an enemy unit within 24" to only be able to Snap Shoot.

==HQ==
-Any character except Daemon Princes may take a Bike/Jump Pack/Mount as is appropriate.

Dark Apostle:
Beseech the Chaos Gods: If the Dark Apostle is in an assault, then at the start of the Psyker Subphase, select a Blessing to seek out and roll a leadership check. If it passes, you succeed.
If the result equals the Sacred Number of a Chaos God, you succeed *and* you roll on the Chaos Boon Table for the Dark Apostle. Effects last until the *end* of the enemy's next fight sub-phase.

-Khorne, Cast Aside the Weakling's Magic: The Dark Apostle's unit ignores any defensive Blessings on enemy units.
-Nurgle, Return these Wayward Corpses into thine Breast: After all attacks are done, but before calculating assault results, roll a D3 and restore that many wounds to the Dark Apostle's unit.
-Slaanesh, Let Us Dance: The Dark Apostle's unit has Rending for its close combat attacks.
-Tzeentch, We Seek Change: The Dark Apostle's unit gets the effects of the Boon of Mutation psyker power cast upon it.


Warpsmith: 100 points base, Mechatendrils have dual-flamers; the Flamers can be upgraded to Meltaguns at +5 each. Chooses a specialization at army creation.
-Dark Guidance: The Warpsmith may elect to forfeit shooting and enable a friendly vehicle within 12" of him with the Daemonforge rule to use his BS.
-Necromechanic: Can repair a vehicle 12" away instead of in B2B on a 3+ by sacrificing a friendly Cultist in his unit.
-Scrapcode Monkey: [EDIT]Tweaking the Scrapcode table[EDIT]

May target an enemy vehicle 12" away instead of shooting. Roll to-hit using BS. If you hit, roll a D6.
1: Nothing Happens
2-3: Engines Compromised: At the start of the opponent's next movement phase, you may move this enemy vehicle first, obeying all normal rules for movement.
4-5: Weapon Compromised: You may fire *one* of the enemy vehicle's weapons (randomly determined) at an enemy unit, using the Warpsmith's BS.
6: Choose either Engines Compromised or Weapon Compromised.


==Troops==

Cultists: Increase the base cost of the unit from 50->60, replace Cultist Champion with Aspiring Champion.

==Elites==
[EDIT]Forgefiend & Maulerfiend are Elites[EDIT]
Forgefiend w/ dual Ectoplasma Cannons costs 125 points. Costs 15/gun to upgrade to Hades Autocannons.
Maulerfiend has Rampage.

Helbrutes: Immune to stun/shaken. Crazed Table is: 1=Cannot move, must fire twice at an enemy, starting with one that inflicted damage. 2=Rage. 3=Rage, Moves like Beasts, must move towards closest visible enemy as fast as possible.
Chosen: The *unit* may take a Boon of Mutation for +20 points.

Possessed: They need a complete redesign.

Cult Champions have 2 wounds.

Khornate Chainaxes are +1 Strength/Shred.

Thousand Sons are 120 pts base, have Inferno Bolts. Inferno Bolts have S4, AP 5 and are Psychically Charged:

During the Psyker Phase, a Psyker attached to a unit with Inferno Bolts may spend Warp Charge to empower them. For each WC spent, the 1k sons have +1 Strength/-1 AP, to a max of S8/AP1.
Roll a D6 after spending the points. If you roll under the number of points spent, the Psyker suffers Perils of the Warp and the Warp Charge is lost without giving any bonus.

==Fast Attack==

Chaos Bikers: If you elect to replace the Bike's twin-linked Bolters with a Special Weapon, you may twin-link it for +5 points.

Heldrake: 145 points. Baleflamer loses Torrent, may upgrade from Baleflamer to Hades Autocannon for 10 points.

Raptors: Hit & Run

Warp Talons: Fearless, 2 attacks base, Hit & Run, AP 2.

==Heavy Support==
The Defiler's Battle Cannon has Primary Weapon, and can fire at targets independent of the Defiler's remaining weapons.

Does CSM really need fix after having IA13?

Not taking FW into account yet; The *internal* balance is...lacking. You can win with Sicarans/Heldrakes/some other combo like that, but when was the last time someone ever took Thousand Sons seriously? When was the last time someone took a Warpsmith instead of a Sorcerer? Or Possessed outside of Crimson Slaughter?

Glean Magic is hilariously powerful; especially if it's going to be a signature power it should randomly pick a power instead of letting you choose one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I really don't see why the nerf to TSons, it's not like they need it.

That is the cruel joke of CSM, you do not take any of those units. TSons are a joke and so are Warp Talons, possessed, mutilators, etc...

CSM has ceased to be CSM with all the GW love of supplements and data slates.

As a former CSM player of 6 excruciating years, I think that what it means to be CSM is to have true grit with out having any of the fancy weapons the Loyalist get to indulge in. We scrap in what ever victories we can with massive casualties and mountains of obsolete technology, weaponry and machinery. CSM codex is mostly useless and that is how it should be. To play CSM is to court death being out numbered and out gunned with out the massive support of the Imperium of Man.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Glean Magic is hilariously powerful; especially if it's going to be a signature power it should randomly pick a power instead of letting you choose one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I really don't see why the nerf to TSons, it's not like they need it.

There's a tradeoff; since the cost is "Target power's cost +1" generally you'll need 5 dice to steal a WC 1 power, 7 or so to steal a WC 2 power, plus the target can still deny (and is a Psyker to boot, potentially of a higher level, so it's not exactly a given anyway...); add in range concerns (say the Psyker in question is a Farseer on Jetbike w/ Mantle of the Laughing God, surrounded by Serpents...can you get close enough?). The Spell Familiar should probably be nerfed accordingly (Reroll 1s for WC dice) seeing as it was pointed for an edition where you used Leadership for Psychic checks. Plus your target still knows said power...

As for the 1k sons nerf, what do you mean? Other than requiring a Psychic check and WC in order to get AP 3 again? The intent is:
-Spend 1 WC: S5 AP 4. No risk of Perils.
-Spend 2 WC: S6 AP 3. 1 in 6 chance of perils.
-Spend 3 WC: S7 AP 2. 1 in 3 chance of perils.
-Spend 4 WC: S8 AP 1. 1 in 2 chance of perils.
With each Perils result meaning you're using a regular Bolter's profile. It's very much a risk-vs-reward mechanic.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
As for the 1k sons nerf, what do you mean? Other than requiring a Psychic check and WC in order to get AP 3 again? The intent is:
-Spend 1 WC: S5 AP 4. No risk of Perils.
-Spend 2 WC: S6 AP 3. 1 in 6 chance of perils.
-Spend 3 WC: S7 AP 2. 1 in 3 chance of perils.
-Spend 4 WC: S8 AP 1. 1 in 2 chance of perils.
With each Perils result meaning you're using a regular Bolter's profile. It's very much a risk-vs-reward mechanic.

No durability increase, no price change, no range increase, no speed increase, no rate of fire increase, no fix to Soul Blaze, just a Strength buff. You've put together an interesting characterful rule that doesn't actually address any of the problems Thousand Sons have and requires them to leech off your Warp Charge pool that you'd rather be using for useful things to make their guns work at all.

my solution to make tsons good is to drop the worthless aspiring sorcerers for a whopping 60pts! But fluff States that rubric Marines are puppets and need a psycher to control them. Can we get them a 10pt Champion to control them with trace psycher powers?

fluff, with so many psychers suffering perils of the warp from trying to summon Daemons for inexperienced generals, and getting sniped, Chaos champions with the slightest ability to manipulate the rubric Marines have been pushed into squad leadership out of desperation. These pseudo psycher struggle to get these rubricae to move their right foot before their left foot. even harder still is to get them to point the inferno bolters to point at ghe enemy.

No durability increase, no price change, no range increase, no speed increase, no rate of fire increase, no fix to Soul Blaze, just a Strength buff. You've put together an interesting characterful rule that doesn't actually address any of the problems Thousand Sons have and requires them to leech off your Warp Charge pool that you'd rather be using for useful things to make their guns work at all.

Edited price downward. You always have at least 2 WC (1 from the Sorc, one from psyker dice), as long as you have this unit, and there is no deny mechanic for this. You have a much larger range of targets as well. The Tzeentch Lore was modified to not be a "1 in 3 chance of not totally sucking".

Fixing Soul Blaze is another topic altogether as I personally consider it the most pointless addition that 6th added besides Mysterious Terrain (which 7th fortunately doesn't mention in core)...but a simple fix would be:
-An attack with Soul Blaze inflicts an additional automatic hit for every 6 to-wound.

Potentially deadly (especially with Rending; fortunately such combos are rare), and it saves a lot of pointless book-keeping of "Ok, on a 3+, this unit takes D3 bolter hits at the start of this turn. Oh, you're running MSU Necrons...I'm going to grab a beer." Adjust the cost of Warpflame Gargoyles to 10-15 points while at it.

 Filch wrote:
my solution to make tsons good is to drop the worthless aspiring sorcerers for a whopping 60pts! But fluff States that rubric Marines are puppets and need a psycher to control them. Can we get them a 10pt Champion to control them with trace psycher powers?

fluff, with so many psychers suffering perils of the warp from trying to summon Daemons for inexperienced generals, and getting sniped, Chaos champions with the slightest ability to manipulate the rubric Marines have been pushed into squad leadership out of desperation. These pseudo psycher struggle to get these rubricae to move their right foot before their left foot. even harder still is to get them to point the inferno bolters to point at ghe enemy.

100 points, you have 5 short-range Dark Reapers with less strength. Good luck.

I appreciate your good will but why try to fix the garbage that GW has made, why not go back to the drawing board and build it from the ground up, properly

i will take that. a squad of 10 tsons at 200 pts in a rhino cruising full speed into rapid fire range unleashing ap3

much better than squad of 10 csm at 150 pts before 2 spec weapons.

so for 50 more pts the rubric Marines get 4++ and ap3 bolters.

edit: re did math, 23*9=207+10champ=217

Still not so bad. You are paying 217pts for 9 inferno bolters and a worthless champion not worth his points. 4++ and fearless makes it worth the 67pts maybe. Icon of V and MoT for 10 is usually 55pts.

 Formosa wrote:
I appreciate your good will but why try to fix the garbage that GW has made, why not go back to the drawing board and build it from the ground up, properly

I did that, nobody wanted to play it so I have no idea how well it worked.

From the ground up. I am personally biased and I think CSM needs to brandish more special weapons to represent how they ignore regulatory doctrines of 2 special weapons a squad but at the same time possibly pay a bit more per weapon upgrade. I also intend to eliminate chosen, possessed, havocs, raptors, bikers and cult troops because rumors are that GW is already intending to remove cult troops.

Chaos Marines 12ppm, bolter and bolt pistol, pa, frag and krak grenades. May add Mark of what ever a what ever points and they become the cult troops they were meant to be so no more of this needing corresponding HQ to unlock as troops as rumors state that cult troops are being phased out. In addition I undercosted them 1pt as I feel it will compensate for their worthless champion tax. traditionally a squad of 10 would cost 140pts and under this point reduciton they would be 130pts. Is 10pts undercost unjustifiable? I intend to hike the upgrade prices so that 2 things can occur, cheap blobs of naked Marine bodies or expensive yet specialized units.

Rule entry for CSM troops:
to remove Chosen form elite slot: Up to 4 marines may replace their bolters for any of the 3 special weapons; flamer @6ppm, plasma gun@16pp, melta gun@11ppm. this unit can not take heavy weapons.
to remove possessed from elite slot: All models in the squad can replace bolters and bolt pistols for a 5++ invul save, fleet, daemon and fearless rule for 6ppm (3pts undercosted) No more random rolling.
to remove raptors from fast attack slot and allow theme armies of Night Lord: All models in the squad can purchase jump packs at 6ppm. This squad is not allowed to have heavy weapons of any kind (blastmasters included). Also can take hit and run ussr for 2ppm.
to remove bikers from the fast attack slot: All models in the squad can replace bolters and purchase bikers for 9ppm. This squad is not allowed to take any heavy weapons of any kind (blast master included).
to remove havocs from heavy support slot and allow theme armies of Iron Warriors: Up to 4 marines can elect to replace their bolters for 4 heavy weapons instead of the special weapons; heavy bolter @11ppm, autocannon@12, missile launcher @16, lascannon @21ppm. This unit can not take special weapons.
To remove worthless votlw: each model can gain fearless ussr for 2ppm. or I propose that the worthless champ gives them fearless until he gets snipped.

If the squad has Mark of Slaanesh @5ppm, then they get +1i. Any model can replace their bolter for sonic blasters for 3ppm (its already too expensive to just ignore cover) and forfeit the option to carry any other special or heavy weapons excluding blastmaster. Up to 4 models can choose to have blastmasters instead of any traditional special weapons or heavy support weapons. (Taking 1 blast master or sonic blaster would not allow any plasma gun, melta gun, flamer, hb, ac, ml, lc) Eliminate Icon of E option too powerful. Instead each model can pay for fnp for 3ppm (all must take). Champ can take doom siren for 16pts.

If the squad has Mark of Nurgle @9ppm, then they gain +1T, blight grenades, ccw. Eliminate IoD. Each model can purchase fnp for 3ppm (all must take).

If squad has Mark of Khorne @6ppm (1pt undercosted), they lose thier bolters and cannot take any special weapon guns or heavy guns but gain +1WS/BS, rage and fc. Any model can replace their ccw for chain axes for 2ppm (again 1 pt undercosted). Up to 4 models can choose to replace their ccw for power sword, maul, axe for 15ppm (power weapons are already expensive). (This combined with possessed is lethal but expensive). Replace IoW for the ability to add d6 to charge for 2ppm.

If squad has Mark of Tzeentch @7ppm (3ppm undercost), they gain slow and purposeful, 4++ invul save. Each marine may replace their bolters for inferno bolters @ 2ppm. Can upgrade the Champion to an Aspiring Sorcerer for 20pts (20pts undercosted). Eliminate IoF.

Does this sound justifiable? Please make suggestion on point cost or if you see any thing that breaks the rules badly. With this set up you can have nurgle bikers with fnp and 4 special guns. Or Khorne bikers with 4 power weapons. Or Slaanesh bikers all with sonic blasters! (can not take blast masters as it is a heavy). Or that same slaanesh bikers can have a doom siren champ! Also raptors with bolters! Finally they can swoop into rapid fire range and shoot! Or load them up with 4 special weapons! 4 flamers! 4 melta guns! 4 plasma guns.

Cant make warp talons. Using the suggestion above they would be 2 points undercosted and can not take dual lc.

I would like to reduce cost of Obliterators and Mutilators by stripping them of their 2 wounds. Should they cost 40pts instead if they lose that extra wound?

Chaos becomes:

6 units of Chaos Bikers of Slaanesh (or drop 2 in order to field some Autohavocs)

3 units of Spawn

3 Predators.

Final Destination.

Meanwhile, Possessed lose their extra attack/strength/damage. You broke them even further.

Anyway, besides unit tweaks and point adjustments, there are two simple things one could do to fix Chaos:

-Replace random rolling with a list of Mutations one can buy either for their characters, or for their *units* of Possessed (whom incidentally get a good point-break)/Warp Talons.
-Move Forgefiends & Maulerfiends to the Elites Slot.

Thanks for catching that. What would you suggest to fix it? should bikes cost more?

is 26pts for extra attack and str worth it for possessed?

Honestly, the main thing is looking at an army-wide level, rather than buffing individual units. The problems with Possessed, beyond being overcosted Power Armor Marines that hit unreliably due to random powers, is that they're *redundant*. They hit stuff in melee...and that's it.

I'm not sure what to do with them, which is why I said I feel they need a complete redesign. The closest area I'd start would probably to look back at the old Pete Haines Codex, where Possessed were still suboptimal, but you chose the abilities they had at army creation. Though it wasn't optimal by any means, you had the cute gimmick of a flying gang of Possessed that could each turn enemy units into Spawn.

As for Bikes as Troops/Jumpers as troops, as much as I would like that, you're now encroaching too much on Loyalist turf. Giving Chosen access to Jump Packs/Bikes/Mounts would be nice however (Edit: Plus hey, there might be a reason to run Black Legion too).

I see. Maybe we make bikes and jump packs cost more since they are becoming troops.

My main goal is to create a sense that basic Chaos Marines can be numerous and cheap as they lack atsknf, combat squad, and many loyalist benefits. However the upgrades such as special and heavy weapons are more coveted, rare and costly as are the functioning bikes and jump packs. Mutations and melee should be cheaper in comparasion. So bump all flamers to 7, plasmaguns to 17, melta guns to 12, hb to 12, ac to 13, ml to 17, lc to 22, bikes to 11, jump pack to 8. Would that be better?


Maybe instead of power weapons, daemon csm can mutate an arm to be a slaanesh rending claw, nurgle poison stinger, I dunno about knorne or Tzeentch daemon equivilant.

And black legion chosen are really not chosen since they no longer have infiltrate ussr. They are just expensive marines taking 4 special/heavy guns and power weapons.

since terminators are the chassis for mutilators and obliterators, what if we did this.

Each terminator who can and did chose to replace their combi bolter for obliterator weapons for 22ppm. Or Each terminator can choose to replace their power weapon for mutilator weapon for 12ppm. Each terminator can also choose to gain an extra wound 11ppm.

This is often a topic between my brother and I (as he plays CSM). We both feel the easiest most streamlined way to balance the book is to take away CSM Marks and replace them with Daemon Marks. Instantly, there are reasons for taking marks (instead of just marking everything Nurgle). Some people might cry about Nurgle all-the-things getting nerfed, but so be it.

Slaanesh becomes super fast (+3 run) and gains rending - making normal CSM and Noise Marines amazing. Eldar get rending, why not CSM?

Shrouded on Nurgle units gives them a certain type of durability that can be really strong. Plague Marines that basically always get two types of saves (armor or cover and FNP). Of course these guys would still retain their Toughness 5.

Reroll saves of 1 on Tzeentch units? Awesome! Of course, Thousand Sons would retain their 4+ invuln.

Khorne gets kind of boned, but Furious Charge is quite strong on normal CSM or Possessed or something. But this Mark can be cheaper. Bezerkers would get Rage + Counterattack as well to make up for what they would lose.

The Daemon Marks are way fluffier than the normal CSM marks. Nurgle stuff SaP, etc.

I suggest you translate the Warriors of chaos book over to 40k. Much cooler and makes more sense. I mean this in a broad sense of course.

Hatred should be standard CSM trait no additional cost, makes up for lack of ATSKNF. Dark Apostle has zealot and grants furious charge. Zealot Incase he leads cultists.

Berserkers are WS5 FNP HoW chain axes standard. Fearless rage standard. Change cost reasonably.

Plague marines are fine.
Noise marines are fine.

Rubric Marines are not as bad as PPL make them out but the problem is the psycher cost. Drop sorcerer and let them only be taken if you bring a sorcerer in HQ slot. Slow and purposeful ap3 shots soul blaze. Witchsight: reduce cover saves by one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Give them their own special land raider mod. Either two twinlinked autocannons on each side and two linked lascannon. Or two ectoplasm cannons and twinlinked reaperautocannon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Let them deep strike more. Warp teleporting or something since no drop pods.

Warp talons have move through cover.

Mutilators... I don't even know