Switch Theme:

DA CSM - target priority  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in de
Mysterious Techpriest






I need some tactical advice on how to deal with this matchup.
We play on a fixed city-table with lots of ruins and a good amount of terrain. However, most of the ruins are pretty bad at providing cover saves for vehicles due to either lack of windows or not being tall enough/angled in a way you cannot shoot AND get cover.
I play Dork Angles, my opponent plays CSM. We (that is he) preferres Maelstrom Missions.

From the back of my head he runs the following List:

Forgefiend /w Hades Cannons
Maulerfiend
Vindicator
2 Heldrakes with Baleflamers
Sonic Dreadnought with Sonic Blaster and Missle Launcher
Squad of Noise Marines with Sonic Blasters and Icon of Excess in a Rhino
2 blank squads of cultists
6 bikes /w 2 Meltas and a Lvl 3 Sorceror on a bike, Mark of Nurgle
Demon Price Lvl 3 /w Wings, Demon of Nurgle

Forgefiend, Maulerfiend and Vindicator are up to the front.
Sonic Dreadnought sits way back in an elevated position for better LoS.
Cultists camp the nearest objectives.
Noise Marines sit in the Rhino and establish themseves on a midfield objective in turn 2.
The bikes infiltrate and try to melta one of my vehicles.
Demon Prince flies/jinks over and summons demonettes, as does the sorceror on the bike.

My list, condensed, consists of the following (after some slight changes after the last crushing 19:5 defeat):

Librarian Lvl 2 on a Bike with a PFG and an Auspex
Librarian Lvl 2 in Termie Armour and a Combimelta
Deathwing Command Squad with CML, Apothecary and 2x TH/SS
Ravenwing Command Squad with Grenade Launcher and Apothecary
Techmarine with Servo Harness and PFG
2 Mortis Dreads with Autocannons
5 Man Tactical Squad with Plasma Cannon
5 Scouts with Sniper Rifles
Ravenwing Bike Squad, 2 Meltas, Combimelta, Attackbike with MM
Fire Raptor Gunship
Tri-Las Predator
Whirlwind

My newest idea is to build a "castle" with the Techmarine, the 2 Mortis, the Pred and the Whirlwind:

providing everything in there with a 4++, hiding the Techmarine out of LOS and creating a firebase while allowing the Whirlwind to use LOS for less scattering.
This of course makes the Vindicator extremely dangerous, so at least shaking him is a priority.
That's the job of the Meltabikes. 3 Meltas and a MM should at least cause 1 penetrating hit.
Next up on the priority list is the Sonic Dreadnought. 2 48" S8 AP3 Ignore Cover Blasts are hard to deal with.
Hopefully the DWCS can deal with him, again, even a single Pen, shaking that thing, will cause me an entire round of respite basically. TL CML and TL Melta should have a decent chance. If that fails, the Predator should be able to take shots at him too.

Forgefiend with Hades is not that threatening and can take a backseat.
The Noise Marines will have to be dealt with somehow, but for the first one or 2 turns are not that relevant.
The Cultists are just fodder for the Whirlwind.
The bikes may threaten my castle, but the 4++ and a repair from the Techmarine should be ok if nothing explodes. T6 makes them tough to deal with. Snipers? Rad Grenade?
I can pretty much assume at least one Heldrake will come in at Turn 2, which means I'll have to use the Skyfire/Intercept of the Mortis and pray to the gods I can neuter one with either a jink or a weapon destroyed. The Raptor may aswell try to get in the rear armor, even with hovermode, to blow them out of the sky if I go first. If I go 2nd, I can DS behind and use the rear armour.
The Demon Prince is something I have no true plan against. I basically hope to get the Ignore Cover power on my Libby or use the Auspex to reduce it to a 3+, still having to snapfire at it.
This leaves me threatwise with the Maulerfiend, which will assault on T2 the earliest, unless it wants to go after my bikes, giving me a turn to deal with it.

Now, this strategy relies on getting the first turn. The main principle stays the same if I go 2nd, but I'll suffer high casualties which can cripple the entire plan.
Last game I lost about 800 points through shooting in T1.

Is that strategy sound? Will it fall apart if I go second? Any other good advice to deal with all that AP3 Ignore Cover and Demonette Hordes?



Data author for Battlescribe
Found a bug? Join, ask, report:
https://discord.gg/pMXqCqWJRE 
   
Made in us
Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot






I'd be tempted to drop the pred for more melta bikes and the dakka banner. That would provide you more tools to deal with the armor AND the fodder.
Beyond that your tactics are decent, I'd say the nurrgle squad is a priority since they can easily tarpit a key unit or remove armor with the melta. In your position I'd almost rather go second so your raptor has a decent chance of taking out whichever helldrake didn't get downed by the mortis dreads (on that note, you may want to upgrade them to TLLC).

I would reserve/outflank the snipers for later objective/maelstrom capturing and find 35pts for a rhino for your tacticals so they don't get roasted.

Cheers.
   
Made in de
Mysterious Techpriest






Hm yes, dropping the pred would do that, but also really hinder my ability to stop that sonic dread from pumping shot after shot into my army. It also would put my "castle" out of its valueable AV13 front.
I'll play around with the points and see what I can do.

So the Nurgle bikes. Looking over my units, the RWCS has no job yet. They could easily try and deal with those... Auspex for a 5+ jink, Rad Grenade for a to-wound of 2+ should be able to deal with those.

I somehow, don't ask me how, found the points for a Rhino and a LC upgrade for one Dread.

is outflanking the snipers actually a good idea? They're rather slow and unprotected in the open. Infiltrating them onto a midfield objective, spread out, can make them take the fire from the sonic so my bikes are not in danger of getting blown up.

Going 2nd is almost guaranteed a dead Heldrake.
However that gives me one less turn to deal with the Maulerfiend and one more psychic phase to summon daemonettes... Oh cruel, cruel world!

Data author for Battlescribe
Found a bug? Join, ask, report:
https://discord.gg/pMXqCqWJRE 
   
Made in de
Mysterious Techpriest






Ok guys... what is this.. I don't even...

Got my next game in with pretty much the same result. After his turn 3, I surrendered. Having nothing more on the board other than the dreads, the pred, the whirlwind and 5 scouts.
I'm just... bummed. I usually am that guy of person that sits down after a defeat, analyses mistakes and improves. But this time I just feel frustrated and defeated up to the point where I think about quitting gaming and only going into the painting aspect.

Well.. what happend... Not trying for a batrep here, just for a "this is how it went down".

After the game setup, we had Maelstrom 1 mission - up to 3 TO's all the time.
I deployed with the described castle, the rhino on a backfield objective, the scouts the same with a 2+ cover. The Attackbike went left with the squadded standard bikes (no killpoints, so why not) whereas the meltabike went right with the RWCS.
And, if course, I got my initiative stolen for the 3rd time in 4 games. Yuck.

After weathering the first turn, I lost I think a total of 1 RWCS member due to a vindicator shot and had the Rhino stormbolter destroyed by the Sonic Dread.
In my turn, my DWCS deep struck behind the vindicator (the Sonic stood in ruins with its back safe by walls) and managed to... not do anything with the melta and glance the vindicator once in the back with the CML. Eh...
My bikes on the left had to run from the summoned 10 demonettes, shooting cultists off an objective together with a scattering blast (9") from the Whirlwind. The MM Attack bike, together with the Predator, took out the Maulerfiend for a lack of a better target.
Did not manage to hurt the vindicator with the bikes due to jink.
Oh, my objectives were to destroy something in CC, hold objective 3 (held by him with his bikes) and control all objectives.

On his turn, I lost pretty much all the bikes, 1 RWCS to a baleflame, the Rhino (which plasma cannon inside got hot on turn 1, doing nothing) to the Sonic Dread and 3 Terminators since the Vindicator just would not get stunned. The Dreads managed to shoot the one incoming Heldrake to 1 HP with intercept. Again I couldn'T stop a 2nd group of demonettes being summoned.
In my turn, my Fire Raptor didn't show up. Already feeling crippled, this is the end of what I did in, what was basically, my last turn. Terminators did nothing and failed the 5" charge on the Sonic Dread. With just a TH, the DW Champion and the Librarian left, that didn't do much either.
The pitiful rest of the bikes managed to do nothing basically. I tried to get everything on his bikes to claim objective 3 and hoped a single bike could rout the cultists holding the last backfield I did not have.. but alas, nothing happened.
After his 3rd turn, I called it quits, not being able to score anyhting else beside First Blood.

Things that were useless:
RWCS
Dreads
Melta bikes
Standard Bikes
Terminators
Snipers

I dunno.. is my list that bad? Or am I just plain unlucky? I lost about 250-300 points a turn to shooting alone. I really couldn't stop anything due to bad dice luck, initiative being stolen, no usable objectives and so on.
I really don't think I should repeatededly be almost tabled in turn 3 by CSM, albeit using dual drake and a sonic dread. Heck, the Drakes didn'T even HAVE anything to do.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/05 21:06:09


Data author for Battlescribe
Found a bug? Join, ask, report:
https://discord.gg/pMXqCqWJRE 
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon






Your biggest squad was what, six guys? Everything in his list is either AP2+, high volume or AP3 Ignores Cover and you just had no numbers to weather the beating. Of course you lost that one as Dark Angels. Your dreads deal with LIGHT air power. Eldar, Dark Eldar, even FMCs, but things like a Heldrake and Stormraven, no. Not happening. 5s to glance if the opponent has even a shred of movement skill since the Dread is a fixed gun if it wants to Skyfire. Get better guns. Lascannons can atleast put significant hurt if both dreads fire at the same target.

Drop the fancy crap and add more units. Ravenwing it up. Samael, two Ravenwing squads with Land Speeders with twin Multimelta. That's a HUGE threat for what, 70pts per? Not going to survive but SOMETHING has to kill it, and since its a seperate unit for rules purposes, the extra damage can't roll over. Attack bikes are the same.

What EXACTLY did you expect snipers to do? How often do you roll double 6s? Not sure about you, but I don't do it much. Which means wasted points. You want Scouts? Keep em cheap, keep em basic and Infiltrate an Objective if you must but in Dark Angels, better to just never touch them. ESPECIALLY against models that just don't give a toss about cover.

Cover isn't going to save you. Armor Saves isn't going to save you. Use numbers and weight of fire. The Dakka Banner is the ONLY Command Squad you should take. And again, numbers so you can survive when you get shot to hell. Make high threat, low cost and single model units. Dark Angels have that going for them pretty well. And enough bikes to be speedy on Objectives.

Your Armor Castle is a nice idea and I'd keep that up. It's not great but it's not poo either. Best way to use the armor if you don't get hit with Orbitals and the Vindicator. More Lascannons are a good deterrent and I'm actually surprised that Whirlwind didn't do more. Have you thought about a Land Raider Helios? Expensive, but two Lascannons and a Whirlwind Launcher (Ordanance so how you play POTMS makes a big difference on efficiency). Just something to consider.
   
Made in de
Mysterious Techpriest






The problem I see... Nothing I can field comes in either large enough numbers or can take the hits.
Bikes? With all that heldrakes and sonic weaponry...
Terminators? Enough melta and AP2 to make them not worth their money.
Green stuff? Vehicles, everything else is just fodder again.

I just don't think bikes cut it against 2 heldrakes and 2 S8 AP3 Ignore cover blasts. Not to mention that's maybe a quarter of his list.

I expected the snipers to get me maybe an VP or die, drawing fire of something. They, ofc, did neither.

Whatever I add, the counter that just wipes it off the board is already there.

I'm currently in the process of ripping the soul out of the list (and myself) by.. well... not playing a list I'd consider fun.

Result is not even that bad.
Modelcount still is really low...

+ No Force Org Slot +

Ravenwing Command Squad [5x Black Knight, Ravenwing Apothecary]
····Banners [Devastation]

+ HQ +

Librarian [Auspex, Power Field Generator]
····Power Armour [Bolt Pistol, Force Sword, Space Marine Bike]
····Psyker [Level 2]

Sammael [Corvex (Jetbike)]

+ Elites +

Deathwing Knights [5x Deathwing Knights, Knight Master]
····Land Raider Crusader (Deathwing) [Deathwing Vehicle, Dozer blade, Multi Melta]

Mark V Mortis Pattern Dreadnought * [2x Twin-linked Lascannon]

Mark V Mortis Pattern Dreadnought * [2x Twin-linked Lascannon]

+ Troops +

Ravenwing Attack Squadron (Troops) [2x Meltagun, 5x Ravenwing Biker]
····Ravenwing Attack Bike [Multi-Melta]
····Ravenwing Sergeant [Melta Bombs,Bolt Pistol, Boltgun]

Ravenwing Attack Squadron (Troops) [2x Meltagun, 5x Ravenwing Biker]
····Ravenwing Attack Bike [Multi-Melta]
····Ravenwing Sergeant [Melta Bombs,Bolt Pistol, Boltgun]

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/05 22:40:16


Data author for Battlescribe
Found a bug? Join, ask, report:
https://discord.gg/pMXqCqWJRE 
   
Made in ca
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran




Canada

Focus on out maneuvering him and keeping his biggest toys busy. Csm have two major flaws I'll list below that generally speaking you can always find a way to exploit.

1) their hopelessly immobile, they couldnt flank or surround a parked car if they had a week to figure it out. Their only methods of troop movement are rhinos and raiders unless it can fly or has a bike. Force him to walk and force him to fight an enemy in more than one direction and he's going to have problems

2) his long range support is flimsy, the defiler, vindicator, and helldrake are his biggest and most threatening units and omitting deffy all can't be left alone or they get squashed. So squash them Or put him in a position where he has to move them away from the fight to keep them alive. He needs his big guns to support his other units and when they can't do their job he has lost a lot of weight.

Also have you thought about using something a little less predictable than bikes or terminators en mass, such as mixed army tactics. Mesh your units togeather into a grand design don't just do what the other guy said would work.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/07 20:58:49


DA army: 3500pts,
admech army: 600pts
ravenguard: 565 pts

 
   
Made in gb
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant





Teesside

For Maelstrom missions, with DA, I would focus on bringing a mix of OS units (tac squads with meltas, in rhinos or drop pods) and hard-hitting, mobile, surgical strike units (Black Knights / bikes with meltas). Don't fight most of his units -- just hit the ones that are the biggest danger to your OS dudes.

My painting & modelling blog: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/699224.page

Serpent King Games: Dragon Warriors Reborn!
http://serpentking.com/

 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: