Concerns in a game against 30k stuff

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Lobokai**

I'm a SM player and I have a variety of other things (see sig), but our club is starting to use 40k and 30k together more and more... what should I, as a 40k player, be worried about (other than a Primarch deathstar)?

**SirDonlad**

Mechanicum.
Thallax with phased plasma fusils (S6 AP3 salvo 2/3) and an 'Upgrayedd' will mince bikes and landspeeders, but they dont like demolisher cannons.
Castellax are tough and shooty - main gun; S6 AP3 heavy 3
Myrmidon secutors can take two phased plasma fusils (!) but for less can take graviton guns - a squad of three with them can put down 6 small blast haywire shots!
Myrmidon destructors can take irradiation engines - template AP3 torrent, fleshbane, rad-phage (-1 T if wounded)
You may want to watch out for 'paragon blades' on an archmagos - a six to wound causes instant death!
Mechanicum vehicles with 'flare sheilds' which drop the strength of a shot by one or by two if its a template or blast.

**ultimentra**

I thought the Photon Thruster was the standard for Thallax?

**Farseer Anath'lan**

I've found I struggle against armour and terminators.

Lots of 30K vehicles can take anti-melta, and/or lance etc upgrades, that make them very difficult to deal with outside of huge amounts of strength 9/10.

Terminators are a bigger problem then in 40k. Cheaper terminators, and incentive to take larger squads means that each terminator is a smaller total investment, and larger squads means more effort to kill time, leaving the rest of their army to tear you open.

Also, watch out for Fire Raptors. They are well worth their price tag.

This is personal experience, but I hope it helps.

**Col. Dash**

Much of what you can face in 40k is the same as in 30k thanks to chaos. Terminators are more viable, although with the exception of one of the legions you wont see storm shields.

Armor and tanks should be your main worry.I haven't seen any anti-lance upgrades but ceramite armor is a 20ish point upgrade available to many vehicles. Spartans get flare shields which drop the strength of any incoming rounds on the front arc by 2. Combined with ceramite makes them an incredibly tough vehicle even if its pushing 350 points.

Your biggest issue is you wont see the same army. Its very hard to prepare to fight against a legion list as there are no real power builds or must take units. Almost every unit is fairly useful in some way and several of the RoWs are fairly nice even if they come with large disadvantages. A drop pod list can be very scary with support squads being troops, just imagine 10 meltagun marines dropping next to an enemy knight.

We also have a lot of flyers available to us both for transport, ground attack, and air defense. You can bring an entire air cav army in Storm Eagles with back up gunships and fighters. It will be a very small army but it can be done.

The disadvantages of a Legion list is point cost. Everything is expensive so unless they go hardcore horde marines(a bare 20 marine squad is 250 points) you will almost always outnumber the legion list. That meltagun squad mentioned above is a 300+ point unit. Primarchs are LoW and thus can never comprise more than 25% of an army and you only get one LoW slot.

**DuskRaider**

At lower points, 30K players should be more concerned than you. Technically the two are compatible (kinda), but in practice it's a bit varied depending on the two armies. Generally below 2,500 points, 30K is a bit lackluster... anything over that and 30K will crush 40K armies something fierce. They can take toys like Spartans (mentioned above), but their squads are all extremely specialized. There's no Tactical squads in the form that 40K Astartes use, but they can take 20 Marines in a squad and unleash a torrent of bolter fire with Fury of the Legion.

**SirDonlad**

ultimentra wrote:
I thought the Photon Thruster was the standard for Thallax?

No thank f#*k, it's the 'lightning gun' (range 18" S7 AP5 heavy1 rending, shred). The photon thruster (range 48" S6 AP2 heavy2 lance, blind, gets hot!) is a 25pt option i can take for every 3 thallax in a squad.
I think it's too expensive for what it does - it's long range makes you waste the lightning gun shots a lot of the time, and 'gets hot!' is a sign of imperfect technology and is therefore heresy.

**jreilly89**

I hate that people try to mix the two. I played a small game and the Primarch just fethed me. Seriously, feth anyone who mixes 30k and 40k

**Tannhauser42**

The 30K armies have very few, if any, "tricks" like 40K armies have.

But, specifically, the things to watch out for that will often surprise the new opponent who is far too comfortable with the 40K meta:

Mechanicum units are tough, with good guns, but will be few in number as they are expensive (and Mechanicum can spam monstrous creatures like in a Tyranid player's wet dream), and they're not particularly good in an assault apart from being very durable.
Most tanks can take the upgrade to ignore the Melta rule (but meltabombs are unaffected), and the Flare shield available to a few does -1 strength to all attacks in the front arc, and an additional -1 if it is a blast/template.
The Legion marines do not have ATSKNF, so you can sweep them in assaults.
Volkite weapons. Varies between S5 and S6, but is only AP5. Every unsaved wound causes one additional hit, but these additional hits cannot cause further hits. Can completely shred units with poor armor saves, but far less effective against marines. Also, the two S6 volkite guns can put out a good number of shots at a good range, so watch out for your light vehicles. There are a couple of bigger Volkite guns (Legion Glaive, one of the Mechanicum Knights, and the Solar Auxilia Leman Russ) that can do more damage due to higher strength and/or lower AP values.
Legion sergeants can take artificer armor, so they can tank challenges.
If your 30K opponents are doing it right, then they will be using the Age of Darkness force organization chart. This means only their troops are scoring units (and terminators).
Legion Tactical squads can go up to 20 marines (but no special or heavy weapons, they're all just bolter dudes). But, they can shoot twice if they don't move and give up shooting next turn. This means potentially up to 80 shots if within rapid fire range, but, honestly, if you're dumb enough to move a unit that close, you deserve exactly what you get.

Those are some of the biggest things to watch out for. Against the Legions, as long as you're already good at killing marines, you won't have much of a problem.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

jreilly89 wrote:
I hate that people try to mix the two. I played a small game and the Primarch just fethed me. Seriously, feth anyone who mixes 30k and 40k

If by "small game" you mean anything less than 2000 points, you were flat out cheated. Lords of War in 30K cannot be taken in games less than 2000pts and cannot be more than 25% of the total army. The fact you were cheated is not a problem of 30K, but solely the fault of the person who cheated you.

**Massaen**

jreilly89 wrote:
I hate that people try to mix the two. I played a small game and the Primarch just fethed me. Seriously, feth anyone who mixes 30k and 40k

Right - anecdotal evidence is always the best advice right!

40k and 30k mixes fine and as previously mentioned - legion forces really struggle at sub 2k points values, 2250 to 2500 seems to be the best point of meshing for the systems. The tax the legion takes at the initial outlay of the squads means low points values they are over expensive and less effective than their codex brothers but at 3k they have a bunch of cool toys and cheaper large units with significant staying and killing power. 2250-2500 is the sweet spot in my experience.

As for primarch models... again as noted, 25% is the max a heresy can spend on a LOW and even then they need a 2k game before the slot is even allowed. Last time I checked I can run a warhound at sub 1500 points with my space marines...

The primarch models are great on the table but are far from unbeatable, especially when you run your own 40k LOW...

**BlaxicanX**

Grav-guns will wipe their asses with about 95% of all threats the 30K armies can bring to the table, so as a SM player there isn't a whole lot for you to fear.

If you can hold your own against Tau, you can hold your own against 30K.

**Deuce11**

DuskRaider wrote:
At lower points, 30K players should be more concerned than you. Technically the two are compatible (kinda), but in practice it's a bit varied depending on the two armies. Generally below 2,500 points, 30K is a bit lackluster... anything over that and 30K will crush 40K armies something fierce. They can take toys like Spartans (mentioned above), but their squads are all extremely specialized. There's no Tactical squads in the form that 40K Astartes use, but they can take 20 Marines in a squad and unleash a torrent of bolter fire with Fury of the Legion.

this

Automatically Appended Next Post:

jreilly89 wrote:
I hate that people try to mix the two. I played a small game and the Primarch just fethed me. Seriously, feth anyone who mixes 30k and 40k

relax, primarch in low point games are terribly OP and have no place there. you knew what you were getting into. THAT should not have been taken seriously by either side.

**Col. Dash**

OP and against the rules unless you let him bring the primarch for some reason.

**Talon of Anathrax**

I generally just exploit the main weakness of 30k: morale.
It might not be the best, but note that most 30m marines lack fearless or ATSKNF.
Troll those marine players: sweeping advance them!

**felixcat**

As a primarily 30k player who fields 1500-2000 point Cybernetica/RG list. i can safely say that the power builds of 40k can handle anything in my list. You guys fight IKs, WKs, DKs and Riptides all the time. You have better AA - which 40k is generally lack lustre at below 2000, you have generally better assault - if you go that route.

Mechanicus (my cybernetica primary) is really quite slow. I added Legion Raven Guard so I could infiltrate some tacs with fury and a praevian w/castallax. But MCs can be beaten down - or tarpited - c'mon you face flyrants and DPs regularly no?

I do not think you really have to tailor at all. Field your best list ... it should do fine.

**Carlson793**

Others have covered most of what you need to know. Here are a couple more:

- Primarchs are not an issue in usual 40k play - they and other Lords of War don't unlock below 2000 pts.
- 30k Marine vs. 40k Marine, watch out for multiples in slots - a lot of units that 40k can only field one of can be fielded in multiples in 30k. Dreadnought and Contemptor Talons. Rapier Batteries. Predator Squadrons. As an example, the Salamanders can field an army that boasts up to 19 Dreadnoughts of various flavors (mind you, that takes around 4,000 pts to field before upgrades, but it's a single detachment).

**ultimentra**

Anyone thought about taking the Irad projector on Thallax? 2+ to wound with fleshbane and then there's rad-phage.

**ChaosDog**

Carlson793 wrote:
Others have covered most of what you need to know. Here are a couple more:

- Primarchs are not an issue in usual 40k play - they and other Lords of War don't unlock below 2000 pts.

Not quite true. The Age of Darkness force org is only used for >1750 points. Less than that and you're either using the standard 40k force org charts or one of the specialised 30k ones (e.g. Zone Mortalis). And if you're using the 40k force org you're allowed a Lord of War.

**Carlson793**

Ahh yes. Forgot to add to previous post. Watch for Relics of the Dark Age of Technology (HH4).

Nanyte Blaster can be brutal if placed right (picture a CDC epidemic spread map in action).
Phase Walker gets you where you can hurt the most (Their Warlord standing exposed and alone but on the other side of the board? <Blip> Place your preferred Warlord slayer beside him and go wild!)
Others can be pretty nasty as well.

**zombiekila707**

Worst thing I did to my friend was a command squad with Vulkan (primarch) with a lib (Biomancy rolled endurance and life leech) lets just say Vulkan never took a wound... never play with him competitively but I played him vs friend and he did not like Vulkan at all....

VULKAN LIVES!!

**SirDonlad**

ultimentra wrote:
Anyone thought about taking the Irad projector on Thallax? 2+ to wound with fleshbane and then there's rad-phage.

My issues with the irrad cleanser are:
You have to be next to the enemy to hit the enemy - a bit too close for my liking even with a jetpack move.
Garuanteed 2+ to wound does sound good, but most of the time a pp fusil is too and its AP3 rather than 5.
I think that D3 garuanteed hits when assaulted is it's biggest draw, but i don't like the idea of planning to let them get the assault in first.
The drop in toughness when wounded also sounded good, but the prime target of this rule is MC's and multi-wound models but you have to cause a wound first and every MC etc i've seen has a better save than 5+ - even Calleb Decima has a 3+ 5++!

So it's a no-go for me; i rarely need to clean eldar guardians from cover round an objective because i get there first!. maybe if my mate starts feilding rangers? but then i know that the gloves were off and i'd break out the taghmata list - myrmidon secutors can take two each and myrmidon destructors can take the genuinely scary irradiation engine (template S4 AP3 torrent, fleshbane, rad-phage).
Thats 240pts for the secutors (6 ir-cleanser templates) and 225pts for the destructors (3 ir-engine templates at 12"); 6 thallax with 2 ir-cleansers, 4 lightning guns and no upgrades is 275pts. I love thallax but if i encounter a problem in hard cover i open the mechanicum toybox!
(that actually miffs me quite a lot - i represent the Ordo Reductor - i shouldn't be looking to the taghmata list when my enemies are in cover! i should have a large gun for that!!)
edit - just remembered that i do have a large gun for that called a 'legion medusa' - but my point remains valid; i'm still borrowing from someone else!

I was torn for a while on the 5pt multi-laser; 3 shots, 36" range S6 but AP6 - i figured the same argument as with the photon thruster; a lot of the time you waste 2 lightning gun shots for a multi-laser salvo at range.
I'll take the hit in range and 5pts extra for AP3!

**felixcat**

I use this squad in all my games over 1250 ...

TR: Mechanicum Thallax Cohort (3) - 160 -1x Lightning guns, 1x Irad-cleanser, 3x Heavy Chainblades

It has not dissapointed me.

**Apostasus**

A destroyer squad & Moritat Consul (125 points for Artificer Armor, Refractor Field plasma pistol and Jump Pack) is one nightmare scenario i thought of against MEQs -- it's probably so good it's broken because the moritat can chain fire on the plas pistol ... keeps rolling to hit until he misses (and the artificer armor to keep him mostly alive from the gets hot when he ultimately misses ... because of course he's BS5)

I test rolled some thoroughly disgusting total numbers of plasma pistol hits with an equally huge number of bolt pistol hits as gravy (we all fail 3+ saves eventually).

**jreilly89**

Tannhauser42 wrote:
The 30K armies have very few, if any, "tricks" like 40K armies have.

But, specifically, the things to watch out for that will often surprise the new opponent who is far too comfortable with the 40K meta:

Mechanicum units are tough, with good guns, but will be few in number as they are expensive (and Mechanicum can spam monstrous creatures like in a Tyranid player's wet dream), and they're not particularly good in an assault apart from being very durable.
Most tanks can take the upgrade to ignore the Melta rule (but meltabombs are unaffected), and the Flare shield available to a few does -1 strength to all attacks in the front arc, and an additional -1 if it is a blast/template.
The Legion marines do not have ATSKNF, so you can sweep them in assaults.
Volkite weapons. Varies between S5 and S6, but is only AP5. Every unsaved wound causes one additional hit, but these additional hits cannot cause further hits. Can completely shred units with poor armor saves, but far less effective against marines. Also, the two S6 volkite guns can put out a good number of shots at a good range, so watch out for your light vehicles. There are a couple of bigger Volkite guns (Legion Glaive, one of the Mechanicum Knights, and the Solar Auxilia Leman Russ) that can do more damage due to higher strength and/or lower AP values.
Legion sergeants can take artificer armor, so they can tank challenges.
If your 30K opponents are doing it right, then they will be using the Age of Darkness force organization chart. This means only their troops are scoring units (and terminators).
Legion Tactical squads can go up to 20 marines (but no special or heavy weapons, they're all just bolter dudes). But, they can shoot twice if they don't move and give up shooting next turn. This means potentially up to 80 shots if within rapid fire range, but, honestly, if you're dumb enough to move a unit that close, you deserve exactly what you get.

Those are some of the biggest things to watch out for. Against the Legions, as long as you're already good at killing marines, you won't have much of a problem.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

jreilly89 wrote:
I hate that people try to mix the two. I played a small game and the Primarch just fethed me. Seriously, feth anyone who mixes 30k and 40k

If by "small game" you mean anything less than 2000 points, you were flat out cheated. Lords of War in 30K cannot be taken in games less than 2000pts and cannot be more than 25% of the total army. The fact you were cheated is not a problem of 30K, but solely the fault of the person who cheated you.

It was a 2000 point 2v1 game. I dumped all of my firepower into him and didn't do a single wound.

**Massaen**

Which primarch? Exactly how much firepower? Was he alone or with a unit?

There is a big range of durability depending on which one it is.

**Col. Dash**

The plasma Moritat is a thing of the past thanks to the newest FAQ. Getting hot on a 1 or 2 and with a getting hot ending the chain fire makes him about useless now for what he costs when you add in the mandatory artificer armor and the plasma pistol(s). Better to give him volkite, it is at least str 5 and is the gift that keeps giving.

**AtoMaki**

Okay, let's dissolve a big misconception here: the Age of Darkness ruleset is a Warhammer 40k expansion (like Apocalypse or Cities of Death) and not a detachment/alternate FOC/whatever. A 30k player doesn't have to play as per the Age of Darkness rules at all. He can take a bog standard CAD and get away with it just fine. But just like in the case of other expansions, if the 30k player plays Age of Darkness, then the 40k player must do so too.

**AnomanderRake**

Moritat used to average seventy-odd plasma hits and need to make two armour saves, they FAQed him because he was silly.

Generally playing against 30k is a lot like playing against 40k Space Marines except the lackluster units (Tac Marines, Terminators, Predators, that sort of thing) have tweaks/points changes/upgrades that make them good; Primarchs are nasty, but there are any number of 40k units (warscythe deathstars, Grav-cent deathstars...) that they'd be avoiding at all costs.

Overall 30k looks scary, but the scary stuff is usually either really expensive (the Vulkan/Librarian/Terminators deathstar sounds cool until you notice that it's in the neighborhood of eight hundred points and can't move any faster than a walk) or otherwise balances out.

(Disclaimer: I have little practical experience with 30k, just starting out) (Vulkan Lives.)

**Apostasus**

Thanks Rake & Dash for the info on the moritat faq, obviously I haven't been staying current ... I'm actually glad they toned it down because it was pretty ridiculous as written (even when I only contemplated 1 plasma pistol and not 2).

**Tiger9gamer**

I have played 40k on 30k at least four times (one zone mortalis) and I have to say space marines are well equipped to face 30k.

what legion is he using? I really only fought agatinst the sons of horus but those guys are nasty in CQC (if they outnumber you) and they have a ton of outflanking units that hurt. Grav cannons work well against them, but try to take out apothecaries none-the-less.