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Is Karamazov and the Callidus assassin the most dangerous team in 40k?

The assassin can infiltrate 1 inch from the enemy and has an ap2 (wounds on 4+) flamer and then Karamazov can drop an ordanance blast on the assassins head and the blast does not scatter meaning the assassin and all the enemies deathstar unit gets hit with either a str 10ap 1 lance blast or d3 str 6 apr large blasts or a str 6 ar large blast that causes all psykers under it to suffer a perils.

And the funny thing is that the assassin has a 50% chance of surviving due to a 4+ invun save.

Is there anything as destructive as that and as accurate as that in the game?

I really don't see how this is so powerful. If your opponent isn't stupid they're spreading out their models instead of deploying them in perfect template formation, which means that a 3" lance blast (the others don't have the AP to matter) placed 1" from the edge of their formation should only hit one model. That's a 50% chance of killing your expensive assassin in exchange for a single hit on the death star, which may have less than a 50% chance of killing anything if they have an invulnerable save (which they probably do). Virtually all of your damage is coming from the AP 2 flamer, so why spend points on the orbital strike? Alternatively, why spend points on an expensive suicide assassin when you can just send in a cheap meatshield unit (conscripts, etc) to tie up the death star, force them to consolidate into a giant blob to maximize your hits, and call in the orbital strike on a 5-point conscript.

I agree its a little wombo combo e with not enough punch (3" blast)

Now combine that with twinlink and some other non vehicle artillery pieces for multiple barrage and we might see something a bit more interesting.

like a bunch of earth shaker platforms or Medusa, Chapter master or what not.

Not competative but silly.

The only case I can think where this would be worth it is against a Daemon Prince. You'd be able to double him out, because no EW. It's still a lot of points to take out 1 model.

Cypher manning an Aquila strongpoint macrocannon. 2 large blast D weapon shots at BS 10? He literally can't miss what he's aiming at if it's more than 2" from a board edge. A vindicare assassin for BS8 and -2 to LOS rolls is also good, as is someone like Maugan Ra IIRC, with Fast shot and BS7.

From my games using him and the assassin they have teamed you to kill 3 broadsides against tau and 2 lemon russ battle tanks (1 being pesk) against AM.

It is very easy to say spread your models out but an ordanance large blast template is hard to spread out from when you have unit coherency etc.

champagne_socialist wrote:
From my games using him and the assassin they have teamed you to kill 3 broadsides against tau and 2 lemon russ battle tanks (1 being pesk) against AM.

The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'. Yeah, you killed some stuff, but how many points did you pay to do it? Could you have had the same results with cheaper units and used the points you saved to kill even more stuff?

It is very easy to say spread your models out but an ordanance large blast template is hard to spread out from when you have unit coherency etc.

You just said the lance shot is a small blast, and it's the only one that matters against a death star. Adding more hits doesn't really help when you give the death star all of its saves back.

I heard on the grape vine that the new DKoK rules allow you to give orders to any infantry unit including artillery. Now if you put karamazov in an earthshaker battery, give the battery prescience and ignores cover order, you can then place karamazovs 1st blast effectively on any friendly model 1-2" away from an opponents unit, walk karamazovs other blasts into the unit, then for any hit or rerolled hit, you can place a 5" Ignores cover earthshaker blast anywhere in the opponents unit.
This is all conjecture as I don't know if you can give artillery orders with DKoK.
Would also cost an arm and a leg.

Poly Ranger wrote:
I heard on the grape vine that the new DKoK rules allow you to give orders to any infantry unit including artillery.

Not just the new DKoK rules, codex IG allow you to do it as well. IG orders say "non-vehicle unit", not "infantry", and artillery is (and always has been) a non-vehicle unit. In fact you need codex IG because the DKoK orders don't include the ignore cover one.

Ah fair enough. I actually have the AM dex and never realised this! Still wouldn't be worth the points for karamazov + earthshaker battery + prescience psyker + sacraficial pawn. But if you absolutely MUST get rid of a death star, it's an option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What IA allows normal AM/IG to take earthshaker batteries btw?

champagne_socialist wrote:
From my games using him and the assassin they have teamed you to kill ... 2 lemon russ battle tanks (1 being pesk) against AM.

Well that's why, the Leman Russes your opponent was using were lemons!

And pesky to boot!

Poly Ranger wrote:
But if you absolutely MUST get rid of a death star, it's an option.

Probably not, because the AP 3 on the earthshakers is a big disadvantage. If you're not going to ignore 2+ armor saves then you need to overwhelm them with volume of fire, and three large blasts don't really do this. If you can't get AP 2 you're probably better off taking quad guns or Wyverns and getting a lot more wounds to roll saves against.

What IA allows normal AM/IG to take earthshaker batteries btw?

IA1 (second edition).

Very good point.

Wait, how many points does this combo cost? How does it compare to some of the more efficient plasma spam options?

 Ailaros wrote:
Wait, how many points does this combo cost? How does it compare to some of the more efficient plasma spam options?

Efficient against invisibility?

Edit: actually just realized INVIS wasn't in the initial post.

Its a butts expensive combo that is basically a 50 50 gamble. the best targets being t5 DP to negate there jinking but they still get the 5+ invul, near 1 shooting broadsides trying to snipe out invisibility casters in the back (if they are dumb enough to not pay attention) and some others im sure. but ultimately its also an additional gamble on top of that as you needa go 1st and not get seized.

 Ailaros wrote:
Wait, how many points does this combo cost? How does it compare to some of the more efficient plasma spam options?

345 points. That's a steep price for one proton torpedo.

It's not a bad idea, but not a great one either. I have a list that kinda follows this idea, but I don't have an assassin in there. I might try that at some point.

CAD: Clan Raukaan
HQ - 270
x1 Chapter Master
. Artificer Armor, Bike, The Gorgon's Chain, Lightning Claw, Power Fist, Melta Bombs, Digital Weapons

Troops - 270
x5 Bikers
. 2 Grav Guns
x5 Bikers
. 2 Grav Guns

Fast Attack - 435
x1 Stormtalon
. Typhoon, Assault Cannon
x1 Stormtalon
. Typhoon, Assault Cannon
x1 Stormtalon
. Typhoon, Assault Cannon

Heavy Support - 275
x1 Thunderfire Cannon
x1 Thunderfire Cannon
x1 Whirlwind
. Hunter-Killer

Allied Detachment - Space Marines, Iron Hands CT
HQ - 265
x1 Chapter Master
. Artificer Armor, Bike, Thunder Hammer, The Shield Eternal, Melta Bombs, Digital Weapons

Troops - 135
x5 Bikers
. 2 Grav Guns

Inquisitorial Detachment
HQ - 200
x1 Karamazov

You could easily add the Callidus at 2000 points, or just remove a few things to make room for it, but this list would have LOTS of blasts.

WIth the son of the main villan and a X-wing fighter?

The only other thing I can think of would be some serious heavy hitting weapons that might be OTT like D weapons...

I guess you could, or you can have 3 Mawlocs devour Draigo Star with invisibility casted on it. I got slaughtered last night

Slayer, AFAIK you cannot use the Allied Detachment for 2 space marine forces that share the same Chapter Tactics. You'll need another AD for the IH force

White Scares would do nice. hit and run works very well for bikers.

I find that there aren't many deathstars that can stand up to three Dominion squads all triggering Holy Fullisade.

The best way to kill a death star is to have a small one man fighter fly down a trench and destory it with a well placed proton torpedo down the thermal exhaust port.

Star Wars jokes aside Destroyer-strength large blasts or competing deathstars are both effective tools but if it's a good deathstar it's fairly impervious to lesser tools. If you can mass ordnance or high-grade flamers maybe?