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Movie Marines are how marines should be in table top if they acted as they are represented in Black Library. Then people quote amazing feats of Space Marines shown in black library books, such as crossing a room in heart beat, ripping men in half with there bare hands effortlessly, slapping bullets out of mid air and even out speeding Dark Eldar. My question is that does anyone have any similar quotes about Eldar? I try to keep my self up to date but i haven't read anything that was seemed out of place, save for two moments. Both involved Solitaires simply disappearing with speed or dueling Keepers of Secrets.

So, using the same format as Movie Marines, what feats could Movie Eldar claim that they have in fiction but not table top?

While I can't really provide any sanctioned fluff to back it up beyond the 'all Eldar are better than humans at just about anything', my take on the Eldar is very much 'Movie-Eldar'. I think of them as basically superhuman at a fundamental level; they can't necessarily take as much damage as a SM, but can move, think and react faster, are probably just as strong in terms of force they can apply (rather than weight they can lift), and that's just be basics. Something like a Solitaire, Succubus or Autarch goes into the bullet-dodging, lightning-speed, kill-10-guys-before-the-first-hits-the-ground category.

For example, in my 'Solitaire' short fiction (which funny enough features one duelling a Keeper of Secrets ), I have him snatching bullets out of the air and redirecting them towards the enemy, moving around a the beam of a laser even as it fires, outrunning an explosion at point-blank range and hearing every word a bunch of Guardsmen whisper to themselves in the middle of a battle. Obviously, the Solitaire is just about as good as an Eldar can get, but it gives you some idea of my take on them. If Space Marines are ridiculously good next to Guardsmen, then Eldar are even moreso to Space Marines.

Now, like I say, I have no real basis for this beyond flavour text and my own headcanon, but that's how I see it. I guess it's largely informed by Tolkien/Paolini-eqse Elves (and for Tolkien, I'm talking Sindar/First Age Elves), superhuman in every way and each worth a hundred mortals, capable of feats so amazing they become myth.

Movie Eldar

you're welcome

Actually, that does a good job of illustrating my point. That, and his other heroics from the Hobbit movies, are not really out of line for either a Sindar Elf or a 40k Eldar.

BrianDavion wrote:



Movie Eldar

you're welcome

That right there's a Solitare killing a Tyranid bio-titan.

Basically the same as Movie Marines, only it wouldn't really be an "armor" save. More like a dodge save. Eldar, especially Dark Eldar (dear god are Incubi in FFG terrifying), just weave around enemy projectiles. They tend to get seriously thrashed if shot, but actually nailing the buggers is the tricky part.

 Paradigm wrote:
While I can't really provide any sanctioned fluff to back it up beyond the 'all Eldar are better than humans at just about anything', my take on the Eldar is very much 'Movie-Eldar'. I think of them as basically superhuman at a fundamental level; they can't necessarily take as much damage as a SM, but can move, think and react faster, are probably just as strong in terms of force they can apply (rather than weight they can lift), and that's just be basics. Something like a Solitaire, Succubus or Autarch goes into the bullet-dodging, lightning-speed, kill-10-guys-before-the-first-hits-the-ground category.

For example, in my 'Solitaire' short fiction (which funny enough features one duelling a Keeper of Secrets ), I have him snatching bullets out of the air and redirecting them towards the enemy, moving around a the beam of a laser even as it fires, outrunning an explosion at point-blank range and hearing every word a bunch of Guardsmen whisper to themselves in the middle of a battle. Obviously, the Solitaire is just about as good as an Eldar can get, but it gives you some idea of my take on them. If Space Marines are ridiculously good next to Guardsmen, then Eldar are even moreso to Space Marines.

Now, like I say, I have no real basis for this beyond flavour text and my own headcanon, but that's how I see it. I guess it's largely informed by Tolkien/Paolini-eqse Elves (and for Tolkien, I'm talking Sindar/First Age Elves), superhuman in every way and each worth a hundred mortals, capable of feats so amazing they become myth.

This. I do not consider them superior to Space Marines, however - Aspect Warriors are on par because they are so damn fast.

Don't movie Eldar just get killed by movie Marines in the fluff? Seems like they're statted out just fine.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Don't movie Eldar just get killed by movie Marines in the fluff? Seems like they're statted out just fine.

Eh, Aspects have a close attrition rate. Guardians should just remain the same in statline, they never really do much but to die to everything.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Eh, Aspects have a close attrition rate. Guardians should just remain the same in statline, they never really do much but to die to everything.

In fairness Guardians probably shouldn't be in most battles the Eldar fight. They're the militia types, used in emergencies, if I recall correctly.

So, what people are sayin' is that every Eldar infantry and probably small skimmers should have a special rule, called hyper Reflex or something that grants a 5++ save. (Dodging lasgun bolts, for example)

And for Aspect Warriors, they have a 4++ save to indicate their superior training.

Sounds more like an anime cartoon.

I imagine Aspect Warriors pretty much like in the Dawn of War II opening cinematic, only maybe a little toned down from that. Almost able to go toe to toe with marines but not quite able to match them since they don't have the benefit of extensive surgical augments, power armour, and gene-seed. Exarchs are probably more than a match for the average Astartes though, with Autarchs able to match Captains and the best among them able to match Chapter Masters. At least that's the way I see it.

Don't really have any concrete fluff examples but there is some art from the DE codex showing a mix of DE fighting some White Scars marines (might be scouts) and it looks like they are able to match them.


But then there's also fluff where the Space Marines seem to totally dominate, like when the Invaders destroy Craftworld Idharae . The Salamanders are also a bit OP when they attack Commorragh.

Paradigm wrote:Actually, that does a good job of illustrating my point. That, and his other heroics from the Hobbit movies, are not really out of line for either a Sindar Elf or a 40k Eldar.

Maybe because Eldar are psychic ninja space Sindar? :p

koooaei wrote:Sounds more like an anime cartoon.

Why do you think DnD elves are just East Asians with pointy ears?

 EngulfedObject wrote:
I imagine Aspect Warriors pretty much like in the Dawn of War II opening cinematic, only maybe a little toned down from that. Almost able to go toe to toe with marines but not quite able to match them since they don't have the benefit of extensive surgical augments, power armour, and gene-seed. Exarchs are probably more than a match for the average Astartes though, with Autarchs able to match Captains and the best among them able to match Chapter Masters. At least that's the way I see it.

Don't really have any concrete fluff examples but there is some art from the DE codex showing a mix of DE fighting some White Scars marines (might be scouts) and it looks like they are able to match them.

Spoiler:

But then there's also fluff where the Space Marines seem to totally dominate, like when the Invaders destroy Craftworld Idharae . The Salamanders are also a bit OP when they attack Commorragh.

The DOW cinematics were extremely toned down and boring.

Eldar ARE anime characters. I'm not really being hyperbolic when I say they weave around projectiles.

 Wyzilla wrote:
The DOW cinematics were extremely toned down and boring.

Eldar ARE anime characters. I'm not really being hyperbolic when I say they weave around projectiles.

Yea, I was referring more to how they were pretty much evenly matched in the cinematic but how I think they'd still lose to marines if the numbers were even. Otherwise the marines would lose every engagement with the Eldar looking at numbers alone and you wouldn't have fluff like the Invaders taking on a Craftworld (which I think is really stupid either way).

Btw, this is off topic but I'm really interested in how you would rank your favorite legions. Would you mind posting your list? I know you like the NL most but I hardly see you posting about them!

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
The DOW cinematics were extremely toned down and boring.

Eldar ARE anime characters. I'm not really being hyperbolic when I say they weave around projectiles.

Yea, I was referring more to how they were pretty much evenly matched in the cinematic but how I think they'd still lose to marines if the numbers were even. Otherwise the marines would lose every engagement with the Eldar looking at numbers alone and you wouldn't have fluff like the Invaders taking on a Craftworld (which I think is really stupid either way).

Btw, this is off topic but I'm really interested in how you would rank your favorite legions. Would you mind posting your list? I know you like the NL most but I hardly see you posting about them!

Yeah, Astartes tend to slaughter Eldar even when they have a numbers advantage. Alaitoc, my favorite of the lot, was nearly wiped out by the Sons of Orar with Imperial Guard reinforcements. Plus Eldar just have a habit of getting ganked by everyone unless their name is Maugan Ra or Fuegan.

Conservation of Eldarjutsu.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Conservation of Eldarjutsu.

Tell that to the Avatar of Khaine.

The speed and dodging is one aspect of the Eldar that is not represented in 40K very much or very well and instead tends to favor armor saves and being tough. . Only Eldar characters like Lelith, or the sub-faction of the Eldar built entirely around acrobatics (i.e. the Harlequins), get anything like a dodge save. The run of the mill general Eldar or Dark Eldar despite their description, just end up with paper thin armor and are still hit as easily as any other target.

Eldar in the fluff are described like anime characters. The original first Dark Eldar Codex had an Imperial report stating there were cases of Dark Eldar kicking back grenades in mid-air that were thrown at them. Movie Eldar would be dodging individual aimed shots all over the place, not because they literally dodge the bullet necessarily but because they can react to the shooter's telegraphed movements and predict where the gun is being aimed at.

In the Night Lords book Void Stalker, Jain Zar wiped all the Night Lords in power armor virtually single handedly and demonstrated a technique of whirling her Blade of Destruction in a manner that allowed her to block a good portion of the bolter rounds fired her way. The book at least got the incredible speed of Phoenix Lords right with one of the Night Lords moving faster than he had ever moved before in his life in an attempt to dodge a fatal strike from the Silent Death, and it still wasn't enough. At Phoenix Lord Initiative 7, really they shouldn't even know what hit them.

The description of the Solitaire in the Harlequin Codex is closer to movie Eldar. He is described as just a blur of color and the only glimpse of him is really when he pauses to either look around or mock you. There is a short story in the fluff section of the Harlequin Painting Guide about a Chaos Lord not even knowing he has been hit and dismembered (since all he experienced was being enveloped in a blur of color) until he actually tries to move, at which point he falls apart.

Fluff-wise Eldar are better than standard non-modified humans at just about anything. That is part of what feeds into their arrogance. In Path of the Eldar they are described as all having pretty much eidetic photographic memory (which may explain how they can have such complicated language and other social customs). Again in those books, they are shown as apparently able to perceive higher frequencies than humans, so a light on a human ship that appears constant was perceived by the Eldar as flickering in an annoying uncomfortable manner. The human food the Eldar tried was perceived as horribly over or under cooked and overspiced, and the Eldar could taste traces of the chemicals used to purify the water they were served. They are stated repeatedly in the Codices as living longer, reacting faster, thinking faster, and having more acute senses than humans. So literally for the Eldar, humans come off as slow in both body and mind, with short memories, short lives, and brutish heavy handed ways of going about even simple daily life. Humans are to Eldar as Orks are to Humans basically in 40K. That is the point of 40K. The Eldar are objectively better than humans physically and mentally, but the theme of 40K is that humanity still persists or even wins in spite of being inferior to so many other lifeforms in the galaxy.

The desire or looking for some sort of "balancing" human advantage misses the point of the 40K universe. In such a hostile universe, the human species has nothing in particular going for it, unlike other ficitonal universes. Humanity is firmly in the middle as an average jack of all trades. They are more subtle than Orks but less than Eldar, more numerous than Eldar but less than Orks and Tyranids, more vicious than Tau in CC but less than Tyranids. In 40K, Humanity survives through its numbers and its determination, not through some innate redeeming advantage. This may be at odds with modern sensibilities or wish fulfillment fantasy (such as in computer games) where people imagine themselves or their group as the "elite" gloriously mowing down numerous faceless cannon fodder. In 40K, the roles are often reversed and it is the humans that are the cannon fodder. People may want themselves and humans to be heroes rather than just "mooks" but that better depicts the faceless and cold nature of the 40K universe, and what makes it a darker place.

^ Yea, uh... that!

 Wyzilla wrote:
Yeah, Astartes tend to slaughter Eldar even when they have a numbers advantage. Alaitoc, my favorite of the lot, was nearly wiped out by the Sons of Orar with Imperial Guard reinforcements. Plus Eldar just have a habit of getting ganked by everyone unless their name is Maugan Ra or Fuegan.

The way the Craftworlds are described would make you think any assault with only a single chapter of marines, even with Imperial Guard support (how do they even unload their troops without getting shot down?) would immediately be doomed to failure but nope, somehow the marines pull through and manage to inflict catastrophic damage. The same with the Salamanders in Commorragh. I mean sure, it was all planned by Vect and it was a surprise assault but still, the fact that a single chapter was able to wipe out the entire DE nobility is still mindblowing.

 EngulfedObject wrote:
^ Yea, uh... that!

 Wyzilla wrote:
Yeah, Astartes tend to slaughter Eldar even when they have a numbers advantage. Alaitoc, my favorite of the lot, was nearly wiped out by the Sons of Orar with Imperial Guard reinforcements. Plus Eldar just have a habit of getting ganked by everyone unless their name is Maugan Ra or Fuegan.

The way the Craftworlds are described would make you think any assault with only a single chapter of marines, even with Imperial Guard support (how do they even unload their troops without getting shot down?) would immediately be doomed to failure but nope, somehow the marines pull through and manage to inflict catastrophic damage. The same with the Salamanders in Commorragh. I mean sure, it was all planned by Vect and it was a surprise assault but still, the fact that a single chapter was able to wipe out the entire DE nobility is still mindblowing.

Actually there has been some GW justification of that now in the fluff. For example, in the Iyanden supplement and the Tyranid Codex it says Idharae was seriously drained by fighting against Hive Fleet Naga, so it was considerably weakened and presumably that is why the Invaders were subsequently able to destroy it.

 EngulfedObject wrote:
^ Yea, uh... that!

 Wyzilla wrote:
Yeah, Astartes tend to slaughter Eldar even when they have a numbers advantage. Alaitoc, my favorite of the lot, was nearly wiped out by the Sons of Orar with Imperial Guard reinforcements. Plus Eldar just have a habit of getting ganked by everyone unless their name is Maugan Ra or Fuegan.

The way the Craftworlds are described would make you think any assault with only a single chapter of marines, even with Imperial Guard support (how do they even unload their troops without getting shot down?) would immediately be doomed to failure but nope, somehow the marines pull through and manage to inflict catastrophic damage. The same with the Salamanders in Commorragh. I mean sure, it was all planned by Vect and it was a surprise assault but still, the fact that a single chapter was able to wipe out the entire DE nobility is still mindblowing.

Or how Iyanden got jumped by Tyranids despite being able to simply jump into the Webway at any damn time they so pleased and exit virtually anywhere they wanted. Plus they knew it was coming days in advance and still did nothing.

Can they just jump straight into the webway?

I thought they were still restricted to specific access points and can't just gate in and out of the webway at will.

They can create temporary portals I think.

Movie Marines represent Marines as they would be portrayed in movies, or rather if they were action movie stars and making a film, that's why they had rules for stunt doubles and the like.

 PhillyT wrote:
Can they just jump straight into the webway?

I thought they were still restricted to specific access points and can't just gate in and out of the webway at will.

Eldar Craftworlds drift in realspace. They have permanent Webway portals at their rears, and other ships use these portals, but the Craftworlds themselves do not enter the Webway as a rule, probably because there are very few Webway tunnels that would be able to accommodate them. We already know from the Dark Eldar Codex that sometimes the Webway tunnels are small enough that only small vehicles like Venoms can fit through them. The only craftworld known definitively to have entered the Webway is the Black Library, and that is obviously a special case.

The Path of the Eldar books have portrayed the Webway as consisting of permanent tunnels, but then also temporary "burrowings" that can be created by the Eldar whilst still in these permanent tunnels in order to actually exit into realspace. There are also permanent exits, but these permanent openings appear to always have some form of Eldar gateway architecture to delineate or stabilize the exit. The temporary burrowings' exits appear to just be holes in space that the Eldar can jump out of.

Exactly - and the bigger the thing in question, the harder it is to find/create a way in and out of the webway. Part of the reason that lighter transports like the venom exist is that they can navigate tighter webway passages.

Craftworlds doing it is nigh unheard of.

The only thing on that scale which I remember is a Haemonculus coven managing to steal a planet being overrun by tyranids (along with the accompanying hive splinter fleet) and dump it in a pocket dimension for use as breeding/experimentation stock.

locarno24 wrote:
Exactly - and the bigger the thing in question, the harder it is to find/create a way in and out of the webway. Part of the reason that lighter transports like the venom exist is that they can navigate tighter webway passages.

Craftworlds doing it is nigh unheard of.

The only thing on that scale which I remember is a Haemonculus coven managing to steal a planet being overrun by tyranids (along with the accompanying hive splinter fleet) and dump it in a pocket dimension for use as breeding/experimentation stock.

The incident you refer to is from the Haemonculus Covens supplement. The stolen Exodite planet of Lethidia was translocated to orbit Commorragh in 999.M41 by Urien Rakarth. However this special feat required special circumstances of destabilising 2 large Webway portals in close physical proximity to each other and using a black hole. In this case, it was Lethidia's main World Spirit shrine and Saim-Hann's main Webway portal, and the black hole from one of Vect's previous revenge schemes (referenced in the 5th edition Dark Eldar Codex). So basically putting something that big into the Webway required special unique circumstances not readily replicated.

Iracundus wrote:
Eldar Craftworlds drift in realspace. They have permanent Webway portals at their rears, and other ships use these portals, but the Craftworlds themselves do not enter the Webway as a rule, probably because there are very few Webway tunnels that would be able to accommodate them. We already know from the Dark Eldar Codex that sometimes the Webway tunnels are small enough that only small vehicles like Venoms can fit through them. The only craftworld known definitively to have entered the Webway is the Black Library, and that is obviously a special case.

The Path of the Eldar books have portrayed the Webway as consisting of permanent tunnels, but then also temporary "burrowings" that can be created by the Eldar whilst still in these permanent tunnels in order to actually exit into realspace. There are also permanent exits, but these permanent openings appear to always have some form of Eldar gateway architecture to delineate or stabilize the exit. The temporary burrowings' exits appear to just be holes in space that the Eldar can jump out of.

Indeed! That said, they have so many Farseers on each Craftworld, you'd think they'd just move the Craftworld ahead of time. From other depictions of the Eldar, it seems they can usually tell when Tyranids are coming (Shadow in the Warp, as seen in Dawn of War II). But maybe it was the first time with Iyanden and they were just caught unawares or weren't quite sure what it was.

Iracundus wrote:
Actually there has been some GW justification of that now in the fluff. For example, in the Iyanden supplement and the Tyranid Codex it says Idharae was seriously drained by fighting against Hive Fleet Naga, so it was considerably weakened and presumably that is why the Invaders were subsequently able to destroy it.

Interesting! I flipped through the supplement a while back but I didn't have time to actually sit down and read it. This does sound familiar though, I think I must have read this part, gone "ahhh!" and promptly forgot it again.

Btw, I love your Eldar posts, very informative and detailed!