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Picked up third awhile back and looking at the index reveals most of the factions army lists. I'm thinking I can build a few armies just with that. What is the difference between the index lists and the old codices?

Tips from any old vets on army building would be great. Actually just a general 3rd ed discussion would be great!

Wave serpents and war walkers have AV 14 from their energy fields IIRC. Other than that craziness the BRB lists were decent stripped down versions from what I can remember. Everything costed more so games are smaller.

I have some old 3rd edition codexes if you ever feel like trying it out.

It's a simplified version of what would later come in the 3rd ed codices. Space Wolves and Blood Angels are mostly just different names for the same units and a lot of armies hadn't found their niche yet. The 3rd ed rulebook lists don't give you much wiggle room.

Well, Tyranids weren't even the same model range in 3rd. Basically, the army rules in the 3rd Edition codex are 2nd Edition for those armies. Playable (I think, it's been a while...) but not actually up to date for their time. And I don't think Tau are even in the book. Or Necrons but I might be wrong there.

Third ed was a great game, but very different from what we currently have. The army lists in the book were very much cut-down versions based on the old 2nd edition models that were available at the time. The army lists in the book were just place-holders, since the new edition was such a radical re-design that none of the old codices were compatible with the new rulebook. They weren't balanced or really sensible, being primarily intended to let you play with your old models, and your God(s) of choice help you if you were trying to use a list from the main rulebook against one of the armies that already had its codex out.

I'll say that while I loved 3rd, and probably played more games under this edition than any other, I don't miss it. By the end especially, the number of army- and unit-specific special rules that you had to keep track of was absurd, and you had no idea what a unit was going to do when it showed up on the table. There was serious power creep, especially towards the end of the cycle, as new codexes were balanced against old ones while the old ones were balanced against the (much weaker) lists in the rulebook. Space marines in particular suffered, as just about every army had a rule in its codex intended specifically to deal with space marines.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
And I don't think Tau are even in the book. Or Necrons but I might be wrong there.

They aren't. Although SOB are.

I thought it would be a nice project to put together a few 3rd armies. Perhaps they will end up as a diorama but it would be nice to play them once in awhile.

Mostly I view this as a great way to expand into other armies without having to worry about codices
Obviously I'd need up to date books eventually but whatever!.

darkcloak wrote:
Picked up third awhile back and looking at the index reveals most of the factions army lists. I'm thinking I can build a few armies just with that. What is the difference between the index lists and the old codices?

Tips from any old vets on army building would be great. Actually just a general 3rd ed discussion would be great!

There's a lot of stuff that's not very well balanced. Carnifex's with only 5+ armor saves. 5pt Plasma Guns, AV14 Eldar vehicles, etc.

The blackbook lists were all replaced within a year IIRC.

Has anyone tried shoehorning the 3rd ed brb lists into 7th ed?

As others have stated, the 3rd ed BRB has extremely pared down versions of the rules, and doesn't include much of the special wargear or rules (iirc). By way of example, in 3rd the Eldar codex received a supplement for all the craftworlds (Iyaden, Biel-tan, Ulthwe, etc.). None of that information is anywhere in the BRB.

I think making a 3rd ed BRB list in 7th would be pretty tough. Things that are common now such as invlun. saves were pretty rare (I don't think TDA had their 5+ yet). There are also no psykers or flying units, and the assault phase was pretty different; you could assault regardless of/if the weapon types shot in the preceding phase.

Also of note, the 3rd ed codexes often had a lot of specific army rules in these little sort of margin boxes on the sides of the pages. Most of those army specific rules are not actually listed anywhere in the 3rd ed BRB, so you miss out on all that.

reenon wrote:
As others have stated, the 3rd ed BRB has extremely pared down versions of the rules, and doesn't include much of the special wargear or rules (iirc). By way of example, in 3rd the Eldar codex received a supplement for all the craftworlds (Iyaden, Biel-tan, Ulthwe, etc.). None of that information is anywhere in the BRB.

I think making a 3rd ed BRB list in 7th would be pretty tough. Things that are common now such as invlun. saves were pretty rare (I don't think TDA had their 5+ yet). There are also no psykers or flying units, and the assault phase was pretty different; you could assault regardless of/if the weapon types shot in the preceding phase.

Sure, 3rd ed brb lists had fewer invulns but plasma guns were only like six points!

LoS and terrain worked differently, assault units in general were monstrously expensive, but also monstrously effective (3E was very much an assault heavy edition) but they woudn't be worth squat now. Things like 32pt Assault Marines and the like.

Av14 elder vehicles, what on earth are you guys on about, I don't remember that, where are you getting that from?

 Formosa wrote:
Av14 elder vehicles, what on earth are you guys on about, I don't remember that, where are you getting that from?

Wave Serpents weren't always armed with broken death-lasers. Used to be just a shield.

Wave Serpents had armour 14/14/10 in the 3rd ed rulebook. This was changed in the codex to 12/12/10, but shots with a strength of over 8 counting as 8.

 obithius wrote:
Wave Serpents had armour 14/14/10 in the 3rd ed rulebook. This was changed in the codex to 12/12/10, but shots with a strength of over 8 counting as 8.

You also couldn’t roll more then a d6 to pen. aka sad melta

Only front/side, not in CC

I played 3rd when it first came out, and found pros and cons when comparing it to the previous edition, which I was a huge fan of. One of the things I did like about the 3rd rulebook, and it was the last time GW would do this, is include those army lists. The differences between the armies and the later codexes for them is basically the lack of special wargear in the main rulebook, and maybe a few units or vehicles that either don't appear in the main rulebook, or might be categorized differently later on, and sometimes a difference in point costs. Or sometimes like the Dark Eldar come can come with Lascannons in the rulebook, but in the Codex they are given Dark Lances instead. But to a casual gamer, they aren't going to care.

For most of the gamers on this site, they would be besides themselves with only resorting to the army lists in the 3rd rulebook. I recently picked up a MIB 3rd edition for nostalgia, and started expanding on the Dark Eldar and Space Marines in the set (who I made Black Templars). My armies, if you can call them that, are around 500 points each, and thats plenty for a quick drop and go casual game with friends, which is what I wanted. It took me down memory lane a bit, and gives me something quick and fun to play with, as opposed to the bloated monstrosity that 40k has become. Now realize that 3rd was basically written to play much larger games, so if you want to go that route, you'll enjoy it.

You could buy 3rd edition codexes on Ebay for pretty cheap these days, but I would try building your armies from what is included in that main rulebook, so you could try them out. Maybe if you absolutely have to have a vehicle that isnt included in those army lists, or race for that matter, then spring for the codexes. But I actually took what I had and matched them pointwise for what was listed in the rulebook, and they came pretty close in costs to the codexes, just not all the wargear was available in the earlier lists.

Over the years while I am still not a fan of many of the rules for 3rd, but I just end up making house rules that make smaller games more fun which is just fine for me.

And one final note, if you decide to dive into the codexes, you have a ton of them. 3rd had the most codexes released for any edition, and they actually expanded the races the most during that time period. Say what you want about 3rd edition, but it seems like it was a healthier version of the game with a lot more going on back then. So you'll have plenty of game just sticking to the rulebook, but you'll have a whole universe to explore with all the codexes and supplements.

One thing you would also want to consider is using the Assualt Rules from the Chapter Approved white dwarf. I remember the rules in the book being very difficult to follow.

Yes, the assault rules from Chapter Approved and later 4th edition are infinitely better than in 3rd.

17 Codices, plus the lists in Eye of Terror and Armageddon, plus City Fight. I still occasionally play 3rd edition, because it's incredibly streamlined and great for big battles.

 Bottle wrote:
One thing you would also want to consider is using the Assualt Rules from the Chapter Approved white dwarf. I remember the rules in the book being very difficult to follow.

I am curious about this... I never looked into the Chapter Approved books, so I looked on ebay and there seems to be three different chapter approved books. Which one has the assault rules?

What are some of the other things these books cover?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Chapter_Approved_2001 - SOB, VDR, Necrons, etc.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Chapter_Approved_2003 - Trial Assault Rules, Feral Orks, kroot mercs, etc.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Chapter_Approved_2004 - Armoured Company, Transports, Trial Assault, VDR, FAQs, etc.

The third edition of Chapter approved is the coolest one of the three, it has the most complete VDR's (including Tau, Tyranids and Necrons), and the Cursed Founding rules are lots of fun.

The Cursed Founding Rules and the Kroot Mercs rules led me to make to of my most cherished forces. Aside from the fun Kroot Mercs list, the Cursed Founding led me to make an entire Legion of the Damned army, complete with bikes, a dread, and terminators, all custom painted and modeled with the requisite flames and bones.