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So I notice in this edition people seem to say for Orks its now "Toyz vs Boyz".

Yet I was wondering is there a such thing as too many "Toyz" and not enough "Boyz" for the composition of an Ork army ?


The reason I am asking is I was thinking about running this list based off of the whole "Toyz > Boyz" mentality:


Dredmob Orks (Bound Army)

-HQ-

1 x Kustom Meka-Dread
1 x Kustom Meka-Dread


-Elites-

1x Mekboy Junka


-Fast Attack-

1x Killa-Kan Mob (5 Kans)
1x Killa-Kan Mob (5 Kans)


-Troops-

1 x Deff Dread
1 x Deff Dread


-Lord of War-

-1 x Kustom Stompa (14 Melee Destroyer Hits alone !)




Looking at this it seems kind of excessive because there are no Boyz in it (to say nothing of extreme Armor Value).


However seems armies like the Green Tide formation also seems excessive as they are composed of nothing but foot slogging infantry with no actual vehicles.


So whats a good medum of Boyz (I lump things like Mega-Nobz, Burnas, Gretchin and the like in here) and Toyz (I lump all vehicles in here and upgrades) to have for any Ork force ?

Assuming a Maelstrom of War mission:

I don't play Tau, but have played against a Farsight Enclave list comprised entirely of Crisis Suits (which they can take as objective secured Troops) armed with weapons that would quickly reduce your 2 Deff Dread objective secured scoring units to flaming heaps, by jet packing out of cover, shooting, then 2D6" jet packing back into cover.

Then they could spend the rest of the game jetting around capping objectives at will, hiding in cover as needed, and beating you easily on VPs.

They'd never give you the opportunity to get into melee, they'd just kite in and out of cover and flank your stronger vehicles / walkers (perhaps via Deep Strike) to hit their rear armor. Probably TAUnt you by saying it was a "target rich environment" or something

Zodgrim Dakathug wrote:
Assuming a Maelstrom of War mission:

I don't play Tau, but have played against a Farsight Enclave list comprised entirely of Crisis Suits (which they can take as objective secured Troops) armed with weapons that would quickly reduce your 2 Deff Dread objective secured scoring units to flaming heaps, by jet packing out of cover, shooting, then 2D6" jet packing back into cover.

Then they could spend the rest of the game jetting around capping objectives at will, hiding in cover as needed, and beating you easily on VPs.

They'd never give you the opportunity to get into melee, they'd just kite in and out of cover and flank your stronger vehicles / walkers (perhaps via Deep Strike) to hit their rear armor. Probably TAUnt you by saying it was a "target rich environment" or something

That.... what does this have to do with the question at hand? you may play orks but touting off the tau like this isn't really a part of the question. He asked what


Anyways it seems that having a good number of trukk boyz zooming around and capturing objectives is worthy of at least a few points, but I do like your stompa heavy list. how many walkers do you think that is?

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
That.... what does this have to do with the question at hand? you may play orks but touting off the tau like this isn't really a part of the question. He asked what

I was trying to give him an example of a list build from a common faction that could cause serious competitive problems for his proposed "Toyz before Boyz" list. He asked for reasons why his list might not be good, I gave him what I thought was a relevant example.

By giving him an example that almost nobody does? Lot of people want to run solid suits just so they can say they have done it but nobody wants to buy that many lol.

The boyz before toyz motto isnt gone, persay, its just shifted. Old rule of thumb was if you didnt have nearly maxed troops you were wrong, now not so much. I bring ~60 boyz in a 2k game and usually im fine (warbikers and manz dont count). Three units of 20, bam im done. Still enough to pose a threat when they slam into something, not enough to be the bulk of my army thus subject to mass fire weakness.

You still need boyz, just not as much as before. Also youre running dreddmob which i think wouldnt really be affected by the new ork dex rules all that much.

The Imperial Answer wrote:
So I notice in this edition people seem to say for Orks its now "Toyz vs Boyz".

Yet I was wondering is there a such thing as too many "Toyz" and not enough "Boyz" for the composition of an Ork army ?


The reason I am asking is I was thinking about running this list based off of the whole "Toyz > Boyz" mentality:


Dredmob Orks (Bound Army)

-HQ-

1 x Kustom Meka-Dread
1 x Kustom Meka-Dread


-Elites-

1x Mekboy Junka


-Fast Attack-

1x Killa-Kan Mob (5 Kans)
1x Killa-Kan Mob (5 Kans)


-Troops-

1 x Deff Dread
1 x Deff Dread


-Lord of War-

-1 x Kustom Stompa (14 Melee Destroyer Hits alone !)




Looking at this it seems kind of excessive because there are no Boyz in it (to say nothing of extreme Armor Value).


However seems armies like the Green Tide formation also seems excessive as they are composed of nothing but foot slogging infantry with no actual vehicles.


So whats a good medum of Boyz (I lump things like Mega-Nobz, Burnas, Gretchin and the like in here) and Toyz (I lump all vehicles in here and upgrades) to have for any Ork force ?

Im pretty sure they FAQ'd the custom stompa, and you are over points by a large margin.

I think we're in for different stuff when we're taling about "Boyz & Toyz".

Generally, it's like this:
When you're taking 2 barebones deff dreads - it's boyz before toyz.
When you're taking one deff dread with armor plates, grot riggers, extra klaws, etc - it's toys before boyz.

 Orock wrote:

Im pretty sure they FAQ'd the custom stompa, and you are over points by a large margin.

It's the FAQ that gives the low points value. In the book the 400 points allows you to take a barebones stompa which you upgrade with weapons for more points. The FAQ tell you that the upgrade brings a pimped-up Big Mek Stompa (I"m not sure with what gear as that's in Apolcaypse). In recent emails Forgeworld have apparently stuck with the FAQ.

Personally as the Dread Mob is so inefficient... I think it's cool to bring the Stompa for the stated points, for LOLZ.

So on topic, depending on point value you could bring a green tide, and back it up with toyz. Maybe not the most competitive but a naught or stompa bringing up the backfield, or kans and dreads running around could support the boys nicely.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
By giving him an example that almost nobody does?

Played against exactly that list in my last game.

Again, it's just one example of a very shooty list comprised of a lot of high strength, low AP weaponry in the game. Obviously there are lots of other lists that are similarly shooty and that are commonly played. In this example I gave, it's an especially mobile shooty list, meaning it can poke out from behind cover, shoot your armored stuff, and get back into cover / out of LoS and you can't do anything about it.

So... something like that would be tough for an Ork list composed of lots slow moving stuff like dreads. I don't really see that as either an irrelevant or contentious statement, and it's totally on-topic with respect to the feedback the OP is requesting.

Zodgrim Dakathug wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
By giving him an example that almost nobody does?

Played against exactly that list in my last game.

Again, it's just one example of a very shooty list comprised of a lot of high strength, low AP weaponry in the game. Obviously there are lots of other lists that are similarly shooty and that are commonly played. In this example I gave, it's an especially mobile shooty list, meaning it can poke out from behind cover, shoot your armored stuff, and get back into cover / out of LoS and you can't do anything about it.

So... something like that would be tough for an Ork list composed of lots slow moving stuff like dreads. I don't really see that as either an irrelevant or contentious statement, and it's totally on-topic with respect to the feedback the OP is requesting.

I have considered that in detail actually. The Stompa I plan to utilize is armed with this weapon:




Its profile mentions any terrain hit by it is automatically replaced by rubble.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hawkeye888 wrote:
So on topic, depending on point value you could bring a green tide, and back it up with toyz. Maybe not the most competitive but a naught or stompa bringing up the backfield, or kans and dreads running around could support the boys nicely.

Actually I think that was one of the competitive builds used in the "LVO" (don't' quite know what this is).

I also recently saw a similar list defeat a Tau list (the Stompa invalidating a unit of Broadsides, their Crisis Commander and their drones in one shot of its Bursta-Cannon). However I think they made a mistake in it because I do not believe D-Weapon wounds spill over.

It was a Green Tide, Kustom-Stompa, 2-3 Kustom Mega Kannons and 2 Trukks I believe.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 Orock wrote:

Im pretty sure they FAQ'd the custom stompa, and you are over points by a large margin.

It's the FAQ that gives the low points value. In the book the 400 points allows you to take a barebones stompa which you upgrade with weapons for more points. The FAQ tell you that the upgrade brings a pimped-up Big Mek Stompa (I"m not sure with what gear as that's in Apolcaypse). In recent emails Forgeworld have apparently stuck with the FAQ.

They've been very (very) open that that is a typo.
To date I've only seen one post where someone as tried to claim this obvious typo isn't a typo. You don't get 800+ points of stuff for 400, email them yourself.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 Orock wrote:

Im pretty sure they FAQ'd the custom stompa, and you are over points by a large margin.

It's the FAQ that gives the low points value. In the book the 400 points allows you to take a barebones stompa which you upgrade with weapons for more points. The FAQ tell you that the upgrade brings a pimped-up Big Mek Stompa (I"m not sure with what gear as that's in Apolcaypse). In recent emails Forgeworld have apparently stuck with the FAQ.

They've been very (very) open that that is a typo.
To date I've only seen one post where someone as tried to claim this obvious typo isn't a typo. You don't get 800+ points of stuff for 400, email them yourself.

This is OT; last email posted on Dakka, in the last 10 days, Forgeworld said to go with 400 points. Completely understand your reasoning.

Edit: just found this thread, has two contradictory emails, including on from Forgeworld saying it should be 730 points.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 Orock wrote:

Im pretty sure they FAQ'd the custom stompa, and you are over points by a large margin.

It's the FAQ that gives the low points value. In the book the 400 points allows you to take a barebones stompa which you upgrade with weapons for more points. The FAQ tell you that the upgrade brings a pimped-up Big Mek Stompa (I"m not sure with what gear as that's in Apolcaypse). In recent emails Forgeworld have apparently stuck with the FAQ.

They've been very (very) open that that is a typo.
To date I've only seen one post where someone as tried to claim this obvious typo isn't a typo. You don't get 800+ points of stuff for 400, email them yourself.

This is OT; last email posted on Dakka, in the last 10 days, Forgeworld said to go with 400 points. Completely understand your reasoning.

Edit: just found this thread, has two contradictory emails, including on from Forgeworld saying it should be 730 points.

That's why i say email them yourself.

It's the most painfully obvious typo in the history of obvious typos. I'm sorry, 800pt Stompa AND a named character inside for 400pts? Not even a small chance that's correct.
The other email refers to a rulebook, which the update pdf isn't, honestly it could be a reply to anything (it could be a reply to vehicle upgrades or Gretchin. It doesn't mention Stompas or 400pts). A screen shot of a email found online doesn't mean anything.

Sure! Understood! I've argued your point in the previous threads, as you can see.

We are planning a Krusha Ball, too. 25 or 50 points if memory serves.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
We are planning a Krusha Ball, too. 25 or 50 points if memory serves.

Krusha Ball is a solid choice for a Kustom Stompa, used one myself in our local annual tournament (list here).

It's nice to be able to remove Aegis, and the ever-annoying Skyshield pad. It can also swat FMC's (but not Flyers) out of the sky

Pics please!

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
Pics please!

Didn't get it painted in time for the Tourney sadly (but it wasn't required to be).

Krusha Ball was made from the original Head. Gaze of Mork (Gork?) from Traktor Kannon parts, and a viewing platform to place the Big Mek.

 koooaei wrote:
I think we're in for different stuff when we're taling about "Boyz & Toyz".

Generally, it's like this:
When you're taking 2 barebones deff dreads - it's boyz before toyz.
When you're taking one deff dread with armor plates, grot riggers, extra klaws, etc - it's toys before boyz.

Imperial Answer,

Just to re-iterate what kooaei said,
Boys vs Toys isn't about boyz vs vehicles, its about barebones vs wargear

Boyz before toyz meant that instead of upgrading a unit to make it more proficient at X, you simply brought two units, thus boyz before toyz.
Toyz before boyz is the idea that in the current dex it is actually worth while in certain cases to upgrade units rather than simply bring multiple of them.


It is also the idea that you don't need to maximise troops anymore, whereas in previous editions most lists would include a large amount of boyz, purely because they were by and large doing most of the heavy lifting. In the current dex other units are now much more capable of doing some heavy lifting themselves. So the idea is that you can bring more toyz; IE - Bring more bikes, bring more big gunz, bring more tankbusta's.
In general the multiple of X units is still effective, as orks are in general cheap on the pts, so for units like tankbusta's having 2 units instead of 1 is always going to be worthwhile, as tankbusta's will always be a prime target if you only have 1 unit.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
Pics please!

Didn't get it painted in time for the Tourney sadly (but it wasn't required to be).

Krusha Ball was made from the original Head. Gaze of Mork (Gork?) from Traktor Kannon parts, and a viewing platform to place the Big Mek.

I've always wondered.

If you knock down terrain with more than one floor, what happens to the units on the upper levels ?

Do they take a Dangerous Terrain test or does it just not affect them ?


And that is a nice Stompa and Krusha Ball.

I rammed a building last edition with the deffrolla, Caused enough penertrations that the building lost enough armour that I could finish it off with sluggas from the boyz inside, the building crumbled and killed most of his marines.

They take dangerous terrain tests but they can also take hits directly from the building damage table.