Oral culture / lessons from our time?

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**Buttery Commissar**

I've been drawing a blank on how to phrase this eloquently - but does any, for lack of a better word, sense of story from our time survive in the 40K universe?

Fables, lessons, expressions based on those, etc? The dog in the manger, or sour grapes for example? Though these are based in a specific background, they are less often a written concept as perpetuated by word of mouth.

I'm chugging along through BL's Horus Heresy and there are many references to the destruction of knowledge, but what about oral history and such?

**Grimskul**

Well, given that oral history is even more prone to being distorted and changed than copying text I would say by and large it would be gone or at least heavily altered to fit in the context of the 41st millennium. Like any references to things like the sea might change to fit the fact that the earth's bodies of water have long since dried up or been drained/vaporized in atomic fire.

So at most I think only the noble houses of Terra would keep some semblance of the old past's legends and "history" intact, on a more basic level too much time has passed for it to really be kept alive, especially within the context of The Great Crusade and following Heresy.

Plus don't forget with regards to the rest of the Imperium there wouldn't be anything really left given that by 40k most of those planets have already set down their cultures and mindsets that would be alien to those on Terra.

**Jazzhands**

I think grayskul makes a valid point but like the idea that though the stories are no longer around the turns of phrase might be. Plenty of thing we say now have changed context or meaning and many are still used though the general populous don't know their origins.

For example "a wild goose chase" which should end in the capture of said goose.

I really like the idea of sea based saying still being around but nobody having a clue what they really mean.

That said 40k obviously has a much long time period for the language to be lost.

**Buttery Commissar**

I was curious as there seems to be an acute understanding of what we did "wrong" - religion, belief in magic, etc. If that is remembered, is anything positive carried forward so far?

**Jazzhands**

Don't forget history is written by the winners!

At this point in human history I would agree with your statement... but plenty of people still have belief in those things.

There is nothing to say the status quo wont change, no matter how many products apple bring out!

Never consider humans the finished article.

**Buttery Commissar**

Oh aye, reading two ends of the same trail (Horus heresy and "current" 40K) alone shows how attitudes change.

I suppose that curiousity itself is a luxury of peace time. Many civillians in the 40Kverse probably do not spend time questioning the origin of expression.

Edit: This thought came up because as I said, reading the BL books, there was a phrase I read today where I thought, "Is that the author telling me his take, or is that an expression the character would use?" I can't remember if it was "scuttlebutt", but something around those lines. It got me to thinking about this.

**pelicaniforce**

In Horus Rising, characters refer to the concept of a devil's advocate, but obviously do not use the term itself. I suppose in the case of "scuttlebutt," you should assume all dialogue has been translated for you into English idiomatically.

**Rippy**

There are quotes from a mispronounced version of Shakespeare at the start of some HH audiobooks, which implies some things could have survived.

**Buttery Commissar**

I do remember there's a pretty extensive explanation of Devil's Advocate without using the expression, it didn't occur to me as to why until you mentioned it.

Eheh, "scuttlebutt" wasn't the point of my query, just the seed.

I also spotted "firecracker", which I have frankly no idea regarding the existence of fireworks in the Empire. Googling it just came up with some quite alarming Chinese fireworks covered in Ultramarines.

I've derailed myself there.

**AnomanderRake**

Depends on what/where you read. Dan Abnett tosses in subtle (or unsubtle) references to today in some of his stuff (the Bequin trilogy included a toy CCCP rocket in someone's antiques box and references to a dead language derived from French).

**Psienesis**

The legend of Baba Yaga makes a brief appearance in one of the Ravenor stories, and the teller of the tale mentions that its a legend from his homeworld (which was not-Terra). Inquisitor Ravenor points out that the story is even older, being a legend from ancient Terra.

So, yeah, some things have definitely survived to some degree or another,

**EngulfedObject**

Well Fulgrim uses the idiom "Crossing the Rubicon" and there's loads of carry-overs like "worm in the apple" (used like twenty times in Fulgrim to describe Chaos, even by Eldrad

) and "Mama Juana," also from that same book. I think the whole thing is full of it. It's extremely immersion-breaking but if that's what you're looking for, Fulgrim is where you'll find it.

Descent of Angels is much more subtle and you'll find things like the Spiral, which intentionally resembles the ancient symbol depicting a serpent eating its own tail (Ouroboros), as well as the proverb "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

**Rippy**

EngulfedObject wrote:
Well Fulgrim uses the idiom "Crossing the Rubicon" and there's loads of carry-overs like "worm in the apple" (used like twenty times in Fulgrim to describe Chaos, even by Eldrad ) and "Mama Juana," also from that same book. I think the whole thing is full of it. It's extremely immersion-breaking but if that's what you're looking for, Fulgrim is where you'll find it.

Descent of Angels is much more subtle and you'll find things like the Spiral, which intentionally resembles the ancient symbol depicting a serpent eating its own tail (Ouroboros), as well as the proverb "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

On that, there is Sindermann's chat with Loken about the serpent dating back to old Earth.

**Buttery Commissar**

I have noticed a lot of "Damn"ing, including from Horus himself. I'm wondering if that's approximate useage or just lazy writing, considering early on, even putting a blanket over your head to simulate a ghost would likely get you done in for antiquated beliefs.

**Agent_Tremolo**

In "flight of the Eisenstein", it's mentioned that the titular ship owed its name to a "glorious scientist and iterator of the past". Looks like they got Sergei Eisenstein and Albert Einstein mixed up!

**Buttery Commissar**

I mean I'm not letting anything distract me from reading, or it would be a self defeating exercise. It's just the very first page I flipped open has Horus damning the Mournival for cocking about in front of a remembrancer.

**Wyzilla**

EngulfedObject wrote:
Well Fulgrim uses the idiom "Crossing the Rubicon" and there's loads of carry-overs like "worm in the apple" (used like twenty times in Fulgrim to describe Chaos, even by Eldrad ) and "Mama Juana," also from that same book. I think the whole thing is full of it. It's extremely immersion-breaking but if that's what you're looking for, Fulgrim is where you'll find it.

Descent of Angels is much more subtle and you'll find things like the Spiral, which intentionally resembles the ancient symbol depicting a serpent eating its own tail (Ouroboros), as well as the proverb "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

It's it far more likely that the spiral of the Dark Angels is instead referring to the infinite, absolute pattern that is the Fibonacci Spiral?

**Jayden63**

Not a chance.

Over the next 38,000 years human language will probably undergo countless transformations. Especially if at any time written history is killed. Just look at our last 3000 years. How many dead languages are there? Heck, even the various dialects of the Native American are in danger of dying out and it will only take one event of some sort of horrific tradigy (like say another black plague) to completely kill off some forms of language.

Now, I'll be willing to wager that some saying may get reinvented as their underlying principles is just as valid in 38,000 years as it would be today. Say for example "A watched pot never boils" Any creature who existance is measured by linear time will be able to relate. However what the exact words will be and what language it will be in is anyone guess.

I think the only thing that has even a remote chance of surviving to the year 40K is music. It may have to be rediscovered every now and then but harmony, rythem, etc. can be found in nature and duplicated with a simple grass reed if need be.

**BrianDavion**

Jayden63 wrote:
Not a chance.

Over the next 38,000 years human language will probably undergo countless transformations. Especially if at any time written history is killed. Just look at our last 3000 years. How many dead languages are there? Heck, even the various dialects of the Native American are in danger of dying out and it will only take one event of some sort of horrific tradigy (like say another black plague) to completely kill off some forms of language.

Now, I'll be willing to wager that some saying may get reinvented as their underlying principles is just as valid in 38,000 years as it would be today. Say for example "A watched pot never boils" Any creature who existance is measured by linear time will be able to relate. However what the exact words will be and what language it will be in is anyone guess.

I think the only thing that has even a remote chance of surviving to the year 40K is music. It may have to be rediscovered every now and then but harmony, rythem, etc. can be found in nature and duplicated with a simple grass reed if need be.

which is why I tend to view the use of those terms as mostly a "clever translation for the reader's benifit"

**Psienesis**

Yep. Gothic, High or Low, would be indecipherable to us, here in M3. What we get is the closest English approximations for us, the reader (and then translated into other languages in the various localized versions, with varying degrees of clarity and quality, I am led to understand.).

**EngulfedObject**

Wyzilla wrote:
EngulfedObject wrote:
Well Fulgrim uses the idiom "Crossing the Rubicon" and there's loads of carry-overs like "worm in the apple" (used like twenty times in Fulgrim to describe Chaos, even by Eldrad ) and "Mama Juana," also from that same book. I think the whole thing is full of it. It's extremely immersion-breaking but if that's what you're looking for, Fulgrim is where you'll find it.

Descent of Angels is much more subtle and you'll find things like the Spiral, which intentionally resembles the ancient symbol depicting a serpent eating its own tail (Ouroboros), as well as the proverb "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

It's it far more likely that the spiral of the Dark Angels is instead referring to the infinite, absolute pattern that is the Fibonacci Spiral?

I highly doubt that.

From Descent of Angels, pg 27:

Spoiler:

The whole discussion on the Spiral goes on for about two pages since it's quite important for the Order.

And Fallen Angels spoiler:

Spoiler:

It's a common and ancient symbol and has appeared in other fantasy settings like The Wheel of Time (best example really, it's the main symbol of the series).

**Buttery Commissar**

Psienesis wrote:
Yep. Gothic, High or Low, would be indecipherable to us, here in M3. What we get is the closest English approximations for us, the reader (and then translated into other languages in the various localized versions, with varying degrees of clarity and quality, I am led to understand.).

Mmm, I'll buy that.

However, myths and expressions seem to remain in varying amounts? Judging from the responses in here.

Still curious where "damned" would fit in even if approximated.

40K fluff seems to have a case of enough people thinking they can write something, that it reflects whatever an individual looks for in it. Sort of like how the modern day Joker is nearly undefinable compared to early DC.

**Wyzilla**

It appears Low Gothic in 40K might actually be bastardized French. In Legion of the Damned an Inquisitorial Acolyte says 'Merda", which is exceptionally close to "Merde".

**Steve steveson**

I would argue much would survive. Written works would probably still be around in some form. The oldest written works we have now are about 6000 years old. It's only about 6 times as long and we produce much much more written work. It would be fragments, and the odd bit here and there, but some books would survive. Stuff would be handed down and looked after, with copies of things like Shakespeare being re-produced and old copies being held safe in vaults and libraries. Unless there is a civilization ending event that literally wipes out everything some stuff will survive. I don't see how it could all be lost when we still hold some of the tiny amount of written work from the past 6000 years. We now produce more writing a day than was ever done before the invention of the printing press, and probably for a long time after.

**EngulfedObject**

Steve steveson wrote:
I would argue much would survive. Written works would probably still be around in some form. The oldest written works we have now are about 6000 years old. It's only about 6 times as long and we produce much much more written work. It would be fragments, and the odd bit here and there, but some books would survive. Stuff would be handed down and looked after, with copies of things like Shakespeare being re-produced and old copies being held safe in vaults and libraries. Unless there is a civilization ending event that literally wipes out everything some stuff will survive. I don't see how it could all be lost when we still hold some of the tiny amount of written work from the past 6000 years. We now produce more writing a day than was ever done before the invention of the printing press, and probably for a long time after.

There was such an event - the Age of Strife, or Old Night. Apparently it went on for 5000 years. A lot of things can be lost in that amount of time, especially with no contact between worlds spread across the galaxy and no warp travel.

**Portugal Jones**

What few scraps we possess of the earliest human writing only exist because they were written in clay, or carved into stone - elements that with care and luck can survive the millenia. Even the most time resistant paper would need exceedingly dedicated care to last more than a handful of centuries.

Whatever survived 30,000 years into the future would be rare, fragmented, and devoid of full context, but it's also cool and fun for writers to drop in references for us to catch, and some of these things are the kind of language conventions that you might not even notice while you're writing.

**Psienesis**

Buttery Commissar wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
Yep. Gothic, High or Low, would be indecipherable to us, here in M3. What we get is the closest English approximations for us, the reader (and then translated into other languages in the various localized versions, with varying degrees of clarity and quality, I am led to understand.).

Mmm, I'll buy that.

However, myths and expressions seem to remain in varying amounts? Judging from the responses in here.

Still curious where "damned" would fit in even if approximated.

40K fluff seems to have a case of enough people thinking they can write something, that it reflects whatever an individual looks for in it. Sort of like how the modern day Joker is nearly undefinable compared to early DC.

Because the God-Emperor of Mankind has replaced the Abrahamic God in every way, and to the God-Emperor has been attached all the beliefs of the afterlife. So, if you are judged by the Emperor and found wanting, then He damns you to whatever version of Hell the Ecclesiarchy told you about.

It appears Low Gothic in 40K might actually be bastardized French. In Legion of the Damned an Inquisitorial Acolyte says 'Merda", which is exceptionally close to "Merde".

Low Gothic is a hybridization of English, various European languages, Chinese and other Asiatic languages, and the made-up languages from LOTR, Star Trek and similar fanons. These latter forms because, when Humanity first spread to the stars, its colonies were based around people of similar interests and backgrounds, whether that was ethnic, religious or cultural. Some of those early colonies were undoubtedly populated by Star Trek fans who spoke Klingon, or LOTR fans who spoke Elvish.

**Buttery Commissar**

Well, how's this for coincidental, or poor timed reading in the wee hours...?

'It’s not difficult to understand,’ explained Sindermann. ‘You see, myths weren’t originally expressed in verbal or written form because language was deemed inadequate to convey the truth expressed in the stories. Myths move not with words, Garviel, but with storytellers and wherever you find people, no matter how primitive or how far they’ve been separated from the cradle of humanity, you’ll always find storytellers. Most of these myths were probably enacted, chanted, danced or sung, more often than not in hypnotic or hallucinatory states. It must have been quite a sight, but anyway, this method of retelling was said to allow the creative energies and relationships behind and beneath the natural world to be brought into the conscious realm. Ancient peoples believed that myths created a bridge from the metaphysical world to the physical one.’
Sindermann flicked through the pages of what looked like a new book encased in fresh red leather and turned the book so Loken could see.
‘Here, you see it here quite clearly.’
[Vague Spoiler removed]
‘What am I looking at?’ he asked.
‘Artifacts recovered from a dozen different worlds during the Great Crusade,’ said Sindermann, jabbing his finger at the pictures. ‘Don’t you see? We carry our myths with us, Garviel, we don’t reinvent them.’

(The Horus Heresy - False Gods - Graham McNeill)

**MasterSlowPoke**

At the beginning of (I think) Fear to Tread, there is a quote from the AD 7000 Warlord Tecumseh Sherman.

**Agent_Tremolo**

Wyzilla wrote:
It appears Low Gothic in 40K might actually be bastardized French. In Legion of the Damned an Inquisitorial Acolyte says 'Merda", which is exceptionally close to "Merde".

It's the latin word for... well, something that will probably get caught by the language filter. "Merda" is still used in Portuguese, Italian and Catalan AFAIK.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Buttery Commissar wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
Yep. Gothic, High or Low, would be indecipherable to us, here in M3. What we get is the closest English approximations for us, the reader (and then translated into other languages in the various localized versions, with varying degrees of clarity and quality, I am led to understand.).

Mmm, I'll buy that.

However, myths and expressions seem to remain in varying amounts? Judging from the responses in here.

Still curious where "damned" would fit in even if approximated.

40K fluff seems to have a case of enough people thinking they can write something, that it reflects whatever an individual looks for in it. Sort of like how the modern day Joker is nearly undefinable compared to early DC.

Well, words do tend to change meanings over time. I can't think of an example in English right now but, precisely, the word "condenado " in Spanish (which would be the closest translation of "damned") lost nearly all of its religious undertones over the 20th Century, to the point that it became a mild swear word roughly interchangeable with "maldito" ("cursed"). Nowadays both words are rarely used, though, except as acceptable substitutes for stronger, less acceptable words.