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Which do you think was a better attempt at moving the background? Which was a better concept? Which one had better execution?

Personally, I really enjoyed Storm of Chaos for the build-up and for all the aftermath as it played out in the roleplaying game supplements and the Black Library novels. Storm of Chaos changed the status quo in the Warhammer world without breaking it. The execution was fairly interesting until the campaign went against the studio's plan, and it all came unravelled at the end. Let the players decide the outcome, unless they play out the events in a way we don't like; then we will write ourselves into a corner full of Chaos-love until we have to headbutt our way out again. Oops, better retcon that next edition. However, I find the concept itself to be fairly poor compared to the ambition inherent in the End Times. Shake things up with yet another Chaos invasion? One that won't harm too many popular characters, yet will still be big enough to give even Wood Elves a chance to pretend they matter? Never done that before.

The End Times seemed to come out of almost nowhere for me. Sure, there were hints about it in some of the recent army books, but no supplements, campaigns, lavish art books or anything so grand. The BL novels were clearly written after the marketing department dictated the plot, and the authors struggle to make sense out of the hurtling pace and the bizarre fluff changes, rather than building up to them with atmosphere and intrigue. The execution feels rushed and disconnected to everything that has happened before, and it definitely burns bridges as it advances. There might not be any one moment as dumb as the Archaon headbutt fatality, but the overall picture is much more ludicrous. The concept, however, was brilliant. The End Times were a good idea to draw together all the plot threads, move the story, and give everyone a really good excuse for huge armies and huge monsters. Don't hold anything back--these are the end times! Too bad it kind of turned into Fantasy Captain Planet as written by someone who only read the back page of each army book.

Anyway, what are your thoughts?

I like Storm of Chaos more because it didn't completely level the setting

Nah, I kid. Mostly. The real reason I think it worked better was because it fit the tone. Yeah, you had Valten running around...but he wasn't superpowered. He might just be a surprisingly good warrior with a birthmark on his chest. You had various factions competing for a chunk of the Empire - but only Archaon had actual apocalypse on his mind. The skaven didn't annihilate most of the 'NPC' nations like Tilea and Estalia out of hand - in fact, they didn't even really focus on them, as per usual, which I think fits with the concept of Kislev, the Empire, and Bretonnia being on the forefront of the Warhammer world's weirdness. Yeah, they handled it badly, but the fluff leading up to it and going through it made sense with the setting, and the aftermath that they integrated into seventh edition didn't feel out of place. The Empire was reeling, but on the rebound - but they also had Chaos warbands running around their front yard. It didn't feel like an excuse for everyone to buy the new giant kit, it didn't have special characters running around like superheroes, and it actually felt like they turned the clock back. Which is a big thing, for GW.

"Let the players decide the outcome..."

This was and usually is a HUGE mistake. The problem is the writers don't have a direction, they need to wait for player input then try to make things work. It's a cool idea but it's extremely difficult.

Plus it tends to favor the popular/strong armies as more people are playing them.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
"Let the players decide the outcome..."

This was and usually is a HUGE mistake. The problem is the writers don't have a direction, they need to wait for player input then try to make things work. It's a cool idea but it's extremely difficult.

Plus it tends to favor the popular/strong armies as more people are playing them.

It felt like the studio just ignored everything to tell the story they wanted to tell, which was just the same old monotone chaos spank we've had since the beginning. Maybe the players wouldn't have minded so much if the story that completely invalidated them at least went somewhere interesting.

I would have loved to have seen the Empire, et al, crush the living snot out of Chaos, though. That actually never has been done, and it would have been entertaining to read all the factions' reactions. The Empire could then have been too overextended running chaos out all the way to the troll country, allowing someone to headbutt them in the midsection, but even that probably isn't grimdark enough.


That having been said, I agree with Spinner that everything else about Storm of Chaos was handled well and added to the setting.

Storm of Choas was better written, in my opinion. The power level of the characters was more in keeping with sanity, unlike End Times. Manfred got his kingdom back, and the Empire was too weak to do anything about it, which I thought was cool. "How will having a vampire nation on it's border affect the Empire?" I wondered...

Then I found out the answer: not at all, because retcon.

BobtheInquisitor wrote:The End Times were a good idea to... move the story

I don't know if it moved the story forward so much as stopped it dead. The clue's in the name. Even SoC's retcon didn't go that far, despite appearances.

Shas'O Dorian wrote:
Plus it tends to favor the popular/strong armies as more people are playing them.

Good point. I'd tend to favour Storm of Chaos at this point in time; but when you're trying to... *ahem* 'forge a narrative' through the worldwide results of an unbalanced game full of WAACers who leap on the toughest, most expoitable army and don't give a fig about storytelling, well, there you are.