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So the Dark Angels seem to have 3 things going for them from a design stance, that being monk robes, feather/wings, and gothic architecture.

They work the gothic architecture into their armor, that way if they miss their fortress monastery, they've always got it with 'em. And the monastic robes look clearly goes with that. But where did the feathers originate from? Is it based on having angel in the name?

More to the point though, did GW miss the boat on the lions? They have a primarch literally named Lion El Jonson and often tagged as 'The Lion'. I could be wrong on this, but I was looking around briefly and saw no lions on anything. I found one picture of Lion El Jonson wearing liony armor and one image of a lion looking plasma gun. That was it, that's all I found. It's so obvious, what with how wolf crazy they went with the Space Wolves, I'd have thought we'd have at least a few lions around for the Dark Angels.

I was sorta thinking having Big roaring lion heads on the side of the doors for the Rhino's would be really cool. Or maybe wide open filigreed lion heads around the tips of Missile Launchers. They wouldn't need to go nuts with it or anything, but I think I'd really like a few lions around on heraldry or something. I'd just draw the line at naming the Infiltrators Cub Scouts is all. (See what I did there?)

If I was anywhere near a decent painter I think I'd paint some onto some basic vehicles. What do you guys think? Lions too much?

It might be a case of the Dark Angels not feeling worthy to bear the Lion heraldry due to the Fallen. Also, Azrael has the Lion Helm (which does have a little lion head on it)

 angelofvengeance wrote:
It might be a case of the Dark Angels not feeling worthy to bear the Lion heraldry due to the Fallen. Also, Azrael has the Lion Helm (which does have a little lion head on it)

I don't guess I've seen the little one on the helm. I just kinda wanna see 'em all over the tanks and transports, maybe on a banner or on some gun tips. I wish I was good at molding green stuff. I'd totally make it a thing.

The feathers come from the vaguely native American motif that the Dark Angels had going on in 2nd edition, most notably with the Deathwing.

The Lion motif probably has more to do with the Calibanite Lions, that were the most ferocious of the Great Beasts native to Caliban. The 'Lions' themselves were only lions in the loosest sense, being more akin to Chaos Spawn and more of a reptile/mammal fusion in nature (at least in their descriptions).

From the description in Descent of Angels, I'm guessing it wouldn't look too different from the Thanator from Avatar


Before reading Descent I always assumed it was the creature from my avatar pic but I guess that's another creature (very similar to the one Corswain wears as a cloak, it's described just like this).


Assuming they aren't all unique that is... kinda confusing really since they're both described as being singular in nature (each one is the only specimen), yet something like Calibanite Lions exist.

I have always thought it weird though, the Lion always felt kind of seperate from the Dark Angels (superficially) because he was really lion themed and none of that carried over. This was early on when I didn't know much about the heresy and the legions and stuff.

 ImAGeek wrote:
I have always thought it weird though, the Lion always felt kind of seperate from the Dark Angels (superficially) because he was really lion themed and none of that carried over. This was early on when I didn't know much about the heresy and the legions and stuff.

Yea, I agree. The Lion always felt a bit detached from his legion. I think it's actually reflected in the fluff as well. You have this towering, perfect Primarch with flowing golden hair (albeit a bit melancholy) and his legion of hooded, secretive, and comparatively subdued Astartes who hold him in awe (remember, he was found alone in the forests as well so he was an object of wonder from the beginning).

Luther is much more in line with the average Dark Angel. It's part of the whole dual nature/schism theme of the Dark Angels. It's also probably why they don't use Lion heraldry all that much as they hold him in too much awe to try to emulate him.

The have the lion motif in some wargear. The Lion's Helm, Lion's Roar and Wrath (Azreal and generic Relic Combi-Plasmas) and Cypher apparently carries the Lion Sword. That's about it. Maybe GW didn't want to too heavily push the Lion and the Wolf theme, or maybe because they all really preferred the SW and no one really likes the Da. COmes across in the rules that way.

 Deadshot wrote:
The have the lion motif in some wargear. The Lion's Helm, Lion's Roar and Wrath (Azreal and generic Relic Combi-Plasmas) and Cypher apparently carries the Lion Sword. That's about it. Maybe GW didn't want to too heavily push the Lion and the Wolf theme, or maybe because they all really preferred the SW and no one really likes the Da. COmes across in the rules that way.

The Lions Helm and Lion Sword both originally belonged to the Lion though I believe.

If they had more lions before you know it they'd be riding lions like cavalry and change their name to space lions

 Great White wrote:
If they had more lions before you know it they'd be riding lions like cavalry and change their name to space lions

With GW involved, I immediately thought this as well, but since they haven't done it yet, I'm guessing they won't. Knock on wood.

That being the case, I'm thinking if I can find any good method of tracing, or maybe a guide of some sort like a decal I can paint over, I have two rhinos that I might really like to paint two gold lion heads on the sides of the doors and try to wet blend them to fade away into the green paint.

I'm genuinely not that great a painter, but I figure as long as it seems at least vaguely in character that it could look really cool. I feel like if GW had actually put a few more lion motif's in somewhere else, this idea might make more sense, but that's mainly wishful thinking on my part.

I just realized they do use lions in their heraldry.

Just look at the Disciples of Caliban:



http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Disciples_of_Caliban
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Disciples_of_Caliban

(They're part of the Unforgiven and created at the request of the DA Supreme Grand Master, so they're Dark Angels in all but name)

So yea, I say just go for it. I like the fading paint idea.

Alternatively, if you're not sure about using lions you could work in some Great Beast motif instead.

For a long time GW avoided using iconography that was difficult to sculpt, by which point it became a tradition.

Take a look at the Dark Angels themselves, their full chapter badge is an angel holding a sword, yet its truncated down to just a winged sword.. yet most of the shoulderpads on the DA Veteran sprue have just a sword, they didn't even sculpt the wings! (tho, given how they did the wings in Dark Vengeance that is perhaps a blessing..)

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I have always thought it weird though, the Lion always felt kind of seperate from the Dark Angels (superficially) because he was really lion themed and none of that carried over. This was early on when I didn't know much about the heresy and the legions and stuff.

Yea, I agree. The Lion always felt a bit detached from his legion. I think it's actually reflected in the fluff as well. You have this towering, perfect Primarch with flowing golden hair (albeit a bit melancholy) and his legion of hooded, secretive, and comparatively subdued Astartes who hold him in awe (remember, he was found alone in the forests as well so he was an object of wonder from the beginning).

Luther is much more in line with the average Dark Angel. It's part of the whole dual nature/schism theme of the Dark Angels. It's also probably why they don't use Lion heraldry all that much as they hold him in too much awe to try to emulate him.

I think you are wrong in your first paragraph. DA is secretive because the Order which the Lion led on Caliban before the arrival of the Emperor was secretive. The whole monk thing? Yeah that was from the Order.....And as to Luther? he´s not in line with the average Angel, in fact in the Heresy books its shown he´s more aligned with the Terran Dark Angels that felt replaced by the Caliban Angels.....

I think all of yáll are forgetting the DA were the first space marine created ever and if I recall the Lion was one of the later found primarchs. Its totally plausible the legion icongraph with wigns and all are from the Terran Dark Angels. Had the Lion been found first I bet the icongraphy would be more lion

ajescorcia025 wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I have always thought it weird though, the Lion always felt kind of seperate from the Dark Angels (superficially) because he was really lion themed and none of that carried over. This was early on when I didn't know much about the heresy and the legions and stuff.

Yea, I agree. The Lion always felt a bit detached from his legion. I think it's actually reflected in the fluff as well. You have this towering, perfect Primarch with flowing golden hair (albeit a bit melancholy) and his legion of hooded, secretive, and comparatively subdued Astartes who hold him in awe (remember, he was found alone in the forests as well so he was an object of wonder from the beginning).

Luther is much more in line with the average Dark Angel. It's part of the whole dual nature/schism theme of the Dark Angels. It's also probably why they don't use Lion heraldry all that much as they hold him in too much awe to try to emulate him.

I think you are wrong in your first paragraph. DA is secretive because the Order which the Lion led on Caliban before the arrival of the Emperor was secretive. The whole monk thing? Yeah that was from the Order.....And as to Luther? he´s not in line with the average Angel, in fact in the Heresy books its shown he´s more aligned with the Terran Dark Angels that felt replaced by the Caliban Angels.....

I think all of yáll are forgetting the DA were the first space marine created ever and if I recall the Lion was one of the later found primarchs. Its totally plausible the legion icongraph with wigns and all are from the Terran Dark Angels. Had the Lion been found first I bet the icongraphy would be more lion

I dunno, I don't think it nessicarly ties to terra or anything. the Lion did name the Dark Angels (apparently after a vision he had) I think it's more due to his particular personality quirks that we get what we have. The Lion had, comparitivly, less of a cult of personality following him personally then many of the other primarchs. When a Primarch took command of a Legion, he almost always recast it in his imagine. the Lion however... DIDN'T.
The Lion took the order, from Caliban, and brought that into the dark angels. this is differnt from how most Primarchs approuched their Legions. And thus the lack of Lion iconography might be in part because the Lion didn't see the legion as an extension of himself, but something differnt. it's worth noting he addressed his Legionarries as "brothers" not "sons"

BrianDavion wrote:

ajescorcia025 wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I have always thought it weird though, the Lion always felt kind of seperate from the Dark Angels (superficially) because he was really lion themed and none of that carried over. This was early on when I didn't know much about the heresy and the legions and stuff.

Yea, I agree. The Lion always felt a bit detached from his legion. I think it's actually reflected in the fluff as well. You have this towering, perfect Primarch with flowing golden hair (albeit a bit melancholy) and his legion of hooded, secretive, and comparatively subdued Astartes who hold him in awe (remember, he was found alone in the forests as well so he was an object of wonder from the beginning).

Luther is much more in line with the average Dark Angel. It's part of the whole dual nature/schism theme of the Dark Angels. It's also probably why they don't use Lion heraldry all that much as they hold him in too much awe to try to emulate him.

I think you are wrong in your first paragraph. DA is secretive because the Order which the Lion led on Caliban before the arrival of the Emperor was secretive. The whole monk thing? Yeah that was from the Order.....And as to Luther? he´s not in line with the average Angel, in fact in the Heresy books its shown he´s more aligned with the Terran Dark Angels that felt replaced by the Caliban Angels.....

I think all of yáll are forgetting the DA were the first space marine created ever and if I recall the Lion was one of the later found primarchs. Its totally plausible the legion icongraph with wigns and all are from the Terran Dark Angels. Had the Lion been found first I bet the icongraphy would be more lion

I dunno, I don't think it nessicarly ties to terra or anything. the Lion did name the Dark Angels (apparently after a vision he had) I think it's more due to his particular personality quirks that we get what we have. The Lion had, comparitivly, less of a cult of personality following him personally then many of the other primarchs. When a Primarch took command of a Legion, he almost always recast it in his imagine. the Lion however... DIDN'T.
The Lion took the order, from Caliban, and brought that into the dark angels. this is differnt from how most Primarchs approuched their Legions. And thus the lack of Lion iconography might be in part because the Lion didn't see the legion as an extension of himself, but something differnt. it's worth noting he addressed his Legionarries as "brothers" not "sons"

I think you both make some great points, and indeed, since the fluff along those lines seems somewhat vague about it, the possibility exists in whichever way you want honestly. Their fluff is great because it leaves things like that to fiddle with. As for me, I'ma add in some very poorly painted lions. I might invent myself a lion based company banner if any of the companies turn out not to have a predetermined banner design. Have to research that.

I can't wait til FW do the Dark Angels and their early history gets fleshed out more.

ajescorcia025 wrote:
I think you are wrong in your first paragraph. DA is secretive because the Order which the Lion led on Caliban before the arrival of the Emperor was secretive. The whole monk thing? Yeah that was from the Order.....And as to Luther? he´s not in line with the average Angel, in fact in the Heresy books its shown he´s more aligned with the Terran Dark Angels that felt replaced by the Caliban Angels.....

I think all of yáll are forgetting the DA were the first space marine created ever and if I recall the Lion was one of the later found primarchs. Its totally plausible the legion icongraph with wigns and all are from the Terran Dark Angels. Had the Lion been found first I bet the icongraphy would be more lion

Are you sure about that? Have you read Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels? Most of the DA who were sent back were from Caliban:

"That was the way it had been on their homeworld for generations – and it had escaped no one that virtually all of the Astartes being sent home were from Caliban rather than Terra." (Prologue, Fallen Angels).

The Order's icon is a downwards pointing sword. The DA's chapter icon is a downwards pointing sword. Etc. Almost everything about the DA, Fallen or not, is from the Order.

And Luther always placed Caliban first, that's why he rebelled. He was certainly not more in line with the Terran DA (though most, including Astellan, decide to follow him). The only one who really opposes him in Fallen Angels is the Terran, Izrafael.

BrianDavion wrote:
I dunno, I don't think it nessicarly ties to terra or anything. the Lion did name the Dark Angels (apparently after a vision he had) I think it's more due to his particular personality quirks that we get what we have. The Lion had, comparitivly, less of a cult of personality following him personally then many of the other primarchs. When a Primarch took command of a Legion, he almost always recast it in his imagine. the Lion however... DIDN'T.
The Lion took the order, from Caliban, and brought that into the dark angels. this is differnt from how most Primarchs approuched their Legions. And thus the lack of Lion iconography might be in part because the Lion didn't see the legion as an extension of himself, but something differnt. it's worth noting he addressed his Legionarries as "brothers" not "sons"

The Dark Angels name has got nothing to do with a vision the Lion had. It's from an old legend of Caliban and Luther is the one who names them when they see the first Dark Angels descend upon the planet:

"And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light... the great and terrible dark angels."

Otherwise yea, I agree with your post. That's pretty much what I was saying.

 Deadshot wrote:
The have the lion motif in some wargear. The Lion's Helm, Lion's Roar and Wrath (Azreal and generic Relic Combi-Plasmas) and Cypher apparently carries the Lion Sword. That's about it. Maybe GW didn't want to too heavily push the Lion and the Wolf theme, or maybe because they all really preferred the SW and no one really likes the Da. COmes across in the rules that way.

It's important to also recognize that the only reason he is named Lion is because it's split of from the El. The character is based on Lionel Johnson, who wrote the poem Dark Angel, lol.

There were no Lion references in the old fluff at all, and the Dark Angels motif of tactical bathrobes is much, much older than any of the newer fluff that's tried to insert actual Lion references. And we should be happy about that. Because as silly as tactical bathrobes are, Wolfy Wolfy Wolf Wolf Marines are pretty awful. No reason to drag the Dark Angels into that gutter too. Can you imagine how hard it is to get gutter slime out of beige bathrobes?

Not everything in 40K has to be absolutely literal to the point of ridiculousness.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

ajescorcia025 wrote:
I think you are wrong in your first paragraph. DA is secretive because the Order which the Lion led on Caliban before the arrival of the Emperor was secretive. The whole monk thing? Yeah that was from the Order.....And as to Luther? he´s not in line with the average Angel, in fact in the Heresy books its shown he´s more aligned with the Terran Dark Angels that felt replaced by the Caliban Angels.....

I think all of yáll are forgetting the DA were the first space marine created ever and if I recall the Lion was one of the later found primarchs. Its totally plausible the legion icongraph with wigns and all are from the Terran Dark Angels. Had the Lion been found first I bet the icongraphy would be more lion

Are you sure about that? Have you read Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels? Most of the DA who were sent back were from Caliban:

"That was the way it had been on their homeworld for generations – and it had escaped no one that virtually all of the Astartes being sent home were from Caliban rather than Terra." (Prologue, Fallen Angels).

The Order's icon is a downwards pointing sword. The DA's chapter icon is a downwards pointing sword. Etc. Almost everything about the DA, Fallen or not, is from the Order.

And Luther always placed Caliban first, that's why he rebelled. He was certainly not more in line with the Terran DA (though most, including Astellan, decide to follow him). The only one who really opposes him in Fallen Angels is the Terran, Izrafael.

BrianDavion wrote:
I dunno, I don't think it nessicarly ties to terra or anything. the Lion did name the Dark Angels (apparently after a vision he had) I think it's more due to his particular personality quirks that we get what we have. The Lion had, comparitivly, less of a cult of personality following him personally then many of the other primarchs. When a Primarch took command of a Legion, he almost always recast it in his imagine. the Lion however... DIDN'T.
The Lion took the order, from Caliban, and brought that into the dark angels. this is differnt from how most Primarchs approuched their Legions. And thus the lack of Lion iconography might be in part because the Lion didn't see the legion as an extension of himself, but something differnt. it's worth noting he addressed his Legionarries as "brothers" not "sons"

The Dark Angels name has got nothing to do with a vision the Lion had. It's from an old legend of Caliban and Luther is the one who names them when they see the first Dark Angels descend upon the planet:

"And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light... the great and terrible dark angels."

Otherwise yea, I agree with your post. That's pretty much what I was saying.

Did read both and have them. The angels who fought with Luther were mix of Terran and Caliban DA. And i agree with you on the healdry and the uniform, the Lion pretty much transfixed the Order and its tradition on the First Legion. However I disagree with you on Luther. Luther put Luther first. He was always the more charismatic leader than the Lion hence his ability to draw all the garrison legionaries and the trainees on Caliban. Also he was kinda influenced by chaos which you would have known if you read Fallen Angels as Zaheriel always saw that Luther was under the influence of a higher power.

ajescorcia025 wrote:

ajescorcia025 wrote:
I think you are wrong in your first paragraph. DA is secretive because the Order which the Lion led on Caliban before the arrival of the Emperor was secretive. The whole monk thing? Yeah that was from the Order.....And as to Luther? he´s not in line with the average Angel, in fact in the Heresy books its shown he´s more aligned with the Terran Dark Angels that felt replaced by the Caliban Angels.....

I think all of yáll are forgetting the DA were the first space marine created ever and if I recall the Lion was one of the later found primarchs. Its totally plausible the legion icongraph with wigns and all are from the Terran Dark Angels. Had the Lion been found first I bet the icongraphy would be more lion

Did read both and have them. The angels who fought with Luther were mix of Terran and Caliban DA. And i agree with you on the healdry and the uniform, the Lion pretty much transfixed the Order and its tradition on the First Legion. However I disagree with you on Luther. Luther put Luther first. He was always the more charismatic leader than the Lion hence his ability to draw all the garrison legionaries and the trainees on Caliban. Also he was kinda influenced by chaos which you would have known if you read Fallen Angels as Zaheriel always saw that Luther was under the influence of a higher power.

So you agree that the fluff from the two books completely contradicts your first post? That your speculation on the iconography of the chapter being from Terra is proven to be impossible by the novels?

Yes Luther was influenced by Chaos but how does that make him more aligned with the Terran DA? Chaos uses his jealousy and fear that that Jonson may have doomed the planet by cleansing it of the Great Beasts (that were absorbing the Chaos taint) and that the Imperium will wipe it out. Luther cares about himself, yes, but he thinks he's doing it all for Caliban. That was his entire justification for rebelling. Did we even read the same book?

And again, the banished DA were mostly from Caliban as directly stated in prologue of Fallen Angels. Astelan followed later but that doesn't make the Fallen all Terran. The ones who sided with Luther were still mostly Calibanite.