Switch Theme:

The Strength D Bloodthirster  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Virginia

Alright, so, my bud used the new Bloodthirster profile last night in a game against my Necrons. I used a more casual, fun list (20 flayed ones, Nightbringer, Deceiver, footslogging troops) and he used some Khorne Daemons with Chaos Marines (Kharn, Berserkers, Heldrake, ext).

He has admitted that he will probably not be using the Strength D Bloodthirster again, and I agree with him that is was a poor move on GWs part. 2 games in a row he has rolled a really good Greater Reward (game 1 {before the new profile came out} he rolled the Rerolling Invulns with the Grimoire, and game 2 {using the new profile} he rolled the Grimoire and a 4+ FNP). Both games I could not stop it. First game I used a competitive list with Destroyers, and annihilated everything but the Bloodthirster. The most recent game last night, as I said I played a more casual list, but fired my entire army into that thing, and could not scratch it. And, it was killing a unit a turn with the Strength D. In fact, my Lychguard and Overlord were charged, and swiftly removed from the table with no saves allowed. Same goes for my Eternal Warrior Ctan that I pay a fortune for.

So, I've added that to the list of things I will no longer fight in 40k. And he probably won't play it again. The fact that it has S alone is not TOO big of a deal, its the fact that he has easy access (albeit random) to getting a very good Greater Reward that will make him unkillable, and thus winning him the game before it even starts.

Unless GW changes the Reward table eventually (which I doubt), then they have done messed up in my opinion. I don't want to fight a 350 point Knight Titan with a 3++ rerollable save. That is not fun for anyone. I would actually rather fight Draigostar.

/rant

40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty  
   
Made in us
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





You really couldn't down a single bloodthirster who strikes in at I1 with Necrons?

It sounds like after that point you could've just won with objectives.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/21 16:33:26


 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Virginia

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
You really couldn't down a single bloodthirster who strikes in at I1 with Necrons?

It sounds like after that point you could've just won with objectives.


It was kill points. I also had gakky rolls the whole game, but a 3++ with a 4+ FNP is not easy to get through, especially when your opponent rolls slightly above average.

40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty  
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





San Jose, CA

I really don't understand your rant. You were on the right track in your first game. Kill the rest of the army and let Bloody kill 1 MSU unit a turn. Then profit. Yeah, you lost 1 game, but you should win the other 5 objective ones.



6th Edition Tournaments: Golden Throne GT 2012 - 1st .....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids
ATC 2013 - Team Fluffy Bunnies - 1st .....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
7th Edition: 2015-16 ITC Best Grey Knights, 2015-16 ITC Best Tyranids
Jy2's 6th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links.....Jy2's 7th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links
 
   
Made in fr
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation





Calixis sector / Screaming Vortex

 krodarklorr wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
You really couldn't down a single bloodthirster who strikes in at I1 with Necrons?

It sounds like after that point you could've just won with objectives.


It was kill points. I also had gakky rolls the whole game, but a 3++ with a 4+ FNP is not easy to get through, especially when your opponent rolls slightly above average.


Can't you just lower hiw invuln with daemonology? Although I suppose that as Necrons you'd have had no psykers
Otherwise, use SD weapons hoping to roll a 6, kill whatever had the grimoire (it can't be as tough as him right?), or just focus your entire army at him for a turn (this should work better for necrons because of Gauss than for other armies)
What should scare you is that, but invisible

CSM
Militarum Tempestus
Dark Angels (Deathwing)
Inquisition 
   
Made in gb
Infiltrating Broodlord






Sounds tough.

I just made a note to never play the new Necron Formation with the +1 to reanimation protocols, it's too hard for me & might force me to think.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/22 00:10:32


   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





San Jose, CA

BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.



6th Edition Tournaments: Golden Throne GT 2012 - 1st .....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids
ATC 2013 - Team Fluffy Bunnies - 1st .....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
7th Edition: 2015-16 ITC Best Grey Knights, 2015-16 ITC Best Tyranids
Jy2's 6th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links.....Jy2's 7th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links
 
   
Made in ca
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel





While I agree that getting in CC is generally a losing proposition for Necrons, I feel that the need for him to land first for a whole turn before charging should give you the time you need to tie him up with something. Were your lychguard sword+board or warscythes? Because unless he was rolling 6's to wound for everything strength D weapons don't ignore invulnerable saves. Wraiths are another way to hold him down and you can get lucky with transdimensional beamers if you're taking the Decurion.

My milkshakes bring all the boys to the yard and they're like, hurr darry darr.


My suggestion to you is to get married, if you have a good wife you'll be happy, if you have a bad wife you'll become a philosopher. 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Virginia

 Talon of Anathrax wrote:
 krodarklorr wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
You really couldn't down a single bloodthirster who strikes in at I1 with Necrons?

It sounds like after that point you could've just won with objectives.


It was kill points. I also had gakky rolls the whole game, but a 3++ with a 4+ FNP is not easy to get through, especially when your opponent rolls slightly above average.


Can't you just lower hiw invuln with daemonology? Although I suppose that as Necrons you'd have had no psykers
Otherwise, use SD weapons hoping to roll a 6, kill whatever had the grimoire (it can't be as tough as him right?), or just focus your entire army at him for a turn (this should work better for necrons because of Gauss than for other armies)
What should scare you is that, but invisible


It' the Bloodthirster that has the grimoire, and he never fails to cast it on himself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
Sounds tough.

I just made a note to never play the new Necron Formation with the +1 to reanimation protocols, it's too hard for me & might force me to think.


I appreciate your sarcasm.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Grimskul wrote:
While I agree that getting in CC is generally a losing proposition for Necrons, I feel that the need for him to land first for a whole turn before charging should give you the time you need to tie him up with something. Were your lychguard sword+board or warscythes? Because unless he was rolling 6's to wound for everything strength D weapons don't ignore invulnerable saves. Wraiths are another way to hold him down and you can get lucky with transdimensional beamers if you're taking the Decurion.


He was rolling 6s, but I am a firm believer that S should not be so easily obtainable in regular games. And he was just jumping him up the board. I had plenty of time to shoot him, and again, could not touch him because of Greater Rewards.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/21 16:57:50


40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty  
   
Made in ca
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





Your buddy needs to read the grimoire rules. The bearer cannot use it on himself. Its only for another unit. If the bearer is in a unit, it ups everyones save except his. Logically, the daemon with the grimoire shouldnt really need it to know his own true name... He should know it. Also it makes people pay a tax to use it on a tough unit like a bloodthirster by requiring they take it on another model thats tough enough to keep it for awhile and mobile enough to keep up with him.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/21 17:05:00


7500 pts Chaos Daemons 
   
Made in us
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Your buddy needs to read the grimoire rules. The bearer cannot use it on himself. Its only for another unit. If the bearer is in a unit, it ups everyones save except his.


*Re-reads his CD codex*
...Huh, never noticed that before, glad I never used it like that before.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





San Jose, CA

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Your buddy needs to read the grimoire rules. The bearer cannot use it on himself. Its only for another unit. If the bearer is in a unit, it ups everyones save except his.

Ancient is correct.

Your friend has been playing it wrong.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/21 17:01:43



6th Edition Tournaments: Golden Throne GT 2012 - 1st .....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids
ATC 2013 - Team Fluffy Bunnies - 1st .....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
7th Edition: 2015-16 ITC Best Grey Knights, 2015-16 ITC Best Tyranids
Jy2's 6th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links.....Jy2's 7th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links
 
   
Made in ca
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





Perhaps your buddy would feel better about using the strength D variant had he known this about the grimoire? It definitely lowers his survivability as well as the synergy with other rewards. I guarantee it will feel alot less ridiculous if you can kill the grimoire bearer first or second turn and then plink away at the thirster's wounds. I would say try it again with legit grimoire usage and see what you guys think.

7500 pts Chaos Daemons 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Virginia

 jy2 wrote:
AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Your buddy needs to read the grimoire rules. The bearer cannot use it on himself. Its only for another unit. If the bearer is in a unit, it ups everyones save except his.

Ancient is correct.

Your friend has been playing it wrong.



Wow, that is a HUGE deal. I'll have to let my friend know about that, for sure. Thank you guys for pointing that out.

40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty  
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





would the Blood thrister not using a strength D weapon really make any differance anyway? if that thing gets into CC it's gonna shread well... just about anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Most armies have access to strength D in some form or another.
that said GW's been showing restraint thus far, most D weapon attacks are if not melee at least short range.


should chaos not have some sort of answer to the Imperial Knight?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/21 18:14:16


Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in ca
Evasive Pleasureseeker



Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto

 krodarklorr wrote:
 jy2 wrote:
AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Your buddy needs to read the grimoire rules. The bearer cannot use it on himself. Its only for another unit. If the bearer is in a unit, it ups everyones save except his.

Ancient is correct.

Your friend has been playing it wrong.



Wow, that is a HUGE deal. I'll have to let my friend know about that, for sure. Thank you guys for pointing that out.


Keep in mind too that the Str.D 'Thirster is always striking at I1, hence pretty much everything in the game bar power fists and their ilk will get a chance to swing first. And due to the way the new 'Colossal' rule is worded, even taking another weapon to use as the primary will not negate the I1 penalty, since Colossal is, "A model with this weapon Piles In and fights at Initiative step 1."
If you can throw something with a large amount of Rending attacks at him, you can likely drown him in wounds, or else cripple him.

On the whole, the Insensate Rage 'Thirster is really not that great, especially when for an additional 25pts, you can get the much better Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster! (now he's a complete b********!)

 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Virginia

BrianDavion wrote:
would the Blood thrister not using a strength D weapon really make any differance anyway? if that thing gets into CC it's gonna shread well... just about anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Most armies have access to strength D in some form or another.
that said GW's been showing restraint thus far, most D weapon attacks are if not melee at least short range.


should chaos not have some sort of answer to the Imperial Knight?


I believe Imperial Knights shouldn't exist anyway, but that's a whole other argument. But seriously, the regular Bloodthirster I tied up in CC with a Destroyer Lord for like, 4 rounds of CC. So the regular ones aren't that bad. Plus, he doesn't jut auto-wipe them, as I get my RP.

40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty  
   
Made in ca
Dour Wolf Priest with Iron Wolf Amulet






Canada

Keep in mind that it doesn't help that you're running an army that is hard-countered by getting assaulted, and for which Strength D is a hard counter to all your best abilities.

Never doubt yourself. Only let it make you stronger... Unless you're the PDF. In which case, you'll be killed to a man.

Andilus Greatsword's Great Company - ~10,000pts Hive Fleet Maliades - ~8500pts Raven Sword - ~3000pts Sisters of Battle - ~1800pts Barloq's Temple City - ~4000pts 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Virginia

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Keep in mind that it doesn't help that you're running an army that is hard-countered by getting assaulted, and for which Strength D is a hard counter to all your best abilities.


That is completely true. But if he wasn't grimoired (Which apparently was illegal) then he wouldn've died with little effort. I rolled two amazing Gaze of Death rolls, and had an entire unit of Lychguard and the Nightbringer swing in CC against him, and at the end of the game he still had 3 wounds left....It's the issue of the survivability AND the Strength D that was an issue.

40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty  
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.


As soon as I get home this is going in my sig.

You guys are hilarious when you want to be.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Auspicious Daemonic Herald





 krodarklorr wrote:
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Keep in mind that it doesn't help that you're running an army that is hard-countered by getting assaulted, and for which Strength D is a hard counter to all your best abilities.


That is completely true. But if he wasn't grimoired (Which apparently was illegal) then he wouldn've died with little effort. I rolled two amazing Gaze of Death rolls, and had an entire unit of Lychguard and the Nightbringer swing in CC against him, and at the end of the game he still had 3 wounds left....It's the issue of the survivability AND the Strength D that was an issue.

Bloodthirsters aren't inherently survivable. They have to make their stuff survivable to make them work and it's not reliable.

The grimoire has to be carried by someone else so that is a minimum of 75 points plus the unit to hide that herald in. Kill that and it loses the 3++. Also the grimoire only works on a d6 roll of 3+. If that is failed then the Boodthirster reduces it's invul to 6++.

The 4+ FNP is randomly determined at the start of each game. Its a 1/6 chance for each greater reward (which is a max of 2 on a BT). It can also get +1 Wound or rerollable Invul saves but 1/2 of the results do nothing to increase it's durability. The 4+ FNP is the only absurdly good one but its only a 30% chance of getting in with two Greater rewards.

It's a lot of work to make the D-thrister not die before it get's to kill something and it's not even reliable.
   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived




On moon miranda.

 krodarklorr wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
You really couldn't down a single bloodthirster who strikes in at I1 with Necrons?

It sounds like after that point you could've just won with objectives.


It was kill points. I also had gakky rolls the whole game, but a 3++ with a 4+ FNP is not easy to get through, especially when your opponent rolls slightly above average.
This sounds a lot like many of the complaints about Necrons...


That said, I'm rather wary of the increasing amount of Strength D being introduced, that was supposed to be relegated to the most fearsome weapons of the absolute mightiest war machines, titan cannons and strategic weapons. Having it on an MC HQ makes me feel it's become a crutch gimmick.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

Heavy Gear Painting Log, Northern Guard, Southern Republican Army, and Terrain
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Virginia

 Vaktathi wrote:


That said, I'm rather wary of the increasing amount of Strength D being introduced, that was supposed to be relegated to the most fearsome weapons of the absolute mightiest war machines, titan cannons and strategic weapons. Having it on an MC HQ makes me feel it's become a crutch gimmick.


I can second that. I think the Blood Thirster could have used something to make it a little better, but not this. Anything other than this.

40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty  
   
Made in fi
Bloodthirsty Chaos Knight







The S: D 'thirster is nothing overpowered. It's simply okay, but nothing spectacular for a variety of reasons. But, when used correctly it can be quite effective unless facing a really competitive list.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/21 20:53:24


   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Virginia

 RunicFIN wrote:
The S: D 'thirster is nothing overpowered. It's simply okay, but nothing spectacular to a variety of reasons. But, when used correctly it can be quite effective unless facing a really competitive list.



As I've said, it wasn't the part that was obnoxious (Though I think they need to stop adding more of it to the base game), it was the combination of that plus his greater rewards and the Grimoire.

40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty  
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight







Ahhh whats so different about the Bloodthirster to the the GK libby?

18" Str D small blast.

Bloodthirster is a single model he isn't bad.

 SHUPPET wrote:

wtf is this buddhist monk ascendant martial dice arts crap lol
 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Virginia

 Quickjager wrote:
Ahhh whats so different about the Bloodthirster to the the GK libby?

18" Str D small blast.

Bloodthirster is a single model he isn't bad.


Isn't that a randomly determined psychic power, that still has to be casted successfully, and could backfire onto himself? Again, I don't like the idea of a strength D small blast, but it's a lot harder to pull off.

40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty  
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





Fort Benning, Georgia

I'm all for the Bloodthirster having a S: D axe. First off it look amazing.

Second it gives Bloodthirsters a close combat ability like none (re most) other- Ya know they way they are supposed to be.

I find it somewhat amusing that a Necron player is complaining about how hard it is to kill a model (which these new rules have done nothing to the Bloodthirster durability wise).
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Virginia

 Ignatius wrote:
I'm all for the Bloodthirster having a S: D axe. First off it look amazing.

Second it gives Bloodthirsters a close combat ability like none (re most) other- Ya know they way they are supposed to be.

I find it somewhat amusing that a Necron player is complaining about how hard it is to kill a model (which these new rules have done nothing to the Bloodthirster durability wise).


Because before I could tarpit a blood thirster, even if it got lucky with greater rewards. Now, if it does get lucky, I can't tarpit it, and it will annihilate everything in its path, while still not dying.

40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty  
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





Fort Benning, Georgia

 krodarklorr wrote:
 Ignatius wrote:
I'm all for the Bloodthirster having a S: D axe. First off it look amazing.

Second it gives Bloodthirsters a close combat ability like none (re most) other- Ya know they way they are supposed to be.

I find it somewhat amusing that a Necron player is complaining about how hard it is to kill a model (which these new rules have done nothing to the Bloodthirster durability wise).


Because before I could tarpit a blood thirster, even if it got lucky with greater rewards. Now, if it does get lucky, I can't tarpit it, and it will annihilate everything in its path, while still not dying.


I get that. But they really aren't that durable. Not being able to Grimoire yourself makes it almost impossible for him to get that 3++. Additionally there is a 1/3 chance that his invulnerable save will get even worse when using it.

Chaos had no reliable answer to things like Knights and Wraithknights and Riptides (okay regular 'Thirsters could do it but for the sake of the argument...) before this guy. I really like that the Bloodthirster has become an ultimate close combat unit- again like it should be. The fact that it took a S: D weapon to accomplish this is not ideal, but I'm all for the product that has resulted.
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: