Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Having gotten a couple games under my belt (and also having watched all the MWG battle reports featuring the new Necrons) I have to say that going Decurion is like going Unbound. Except Decurion is even better than Unbound. I have yet to lose a game with the decurion and so does MWG.

Unless you're up against an absolute tailored Necron-killing list, the decurion will keep winning you games. It makes your army just so resilient that you end up losing between 1/3 and 2/3rd of your force at most by the end of most games.

So yeah. I personally am already tired of fielding the decurion - it doesnt make for fun games, neither to my opponent nor even to me now. CAD lists can be more varied and more fun for both players.

I've lost 2 out of my 8 games so far. Granted, My first loss I was trying a sub-par list just to test a formation (Annihilation Nexus....which is kinda meh) and my second loss I was using 2 Ctans. >.> That doesn't say much, giving every time I purposely play a strong list, I annihilate my opponent. But just play non-competitive things. Do that, and still use the Decurion. You might have fun.

Nope. I am enjoying my Reclamation Formation, Destroyer Cult, and then my Conclave on top of it.

Im loving the Decurion, harvest, and judicator. Once I get some destroyers ill be rocking that formation too.

I do feel kinda bad sometimes haha! everything just seems so hard to kill haha!!

Absolutely.

In fact, since I actually quite like the Reclamation Legion's bonuses- Relentless and Move through Cover, I've been strongly considering the idea of deliberately sabotaging otherwise valid Decurions by making them unbound, just to get back to sensible detachment bonuses.

That said, I've mostly been running CAD, CAD + 1 formation or armies made of three or so formations so far. The individual formations are fantastic army building tools and it's just a shame they came up with such a horribly thought out unique detachment.

The one Necron player in my group has just been running a CAD. But that is mostly due to point limitations. We mathed it out and at a bare minimum he needs about 800 points before upgrades, which means it will be possible in about 2 weeks when the campaign hits 900 points. I'm pressuring him into running it, as he is new, and I would love to see him take down one of the vets.

I don't feel bad in the slightest it's usually a balanced army with 3 Different Troops a huge point investment and the inability in lower points to really mix and match Formations. It's just a really strong detachment.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "fielding a Decurion," as there are many different possibilities depending on which formations one decides to use. And even within the Reclamation Legion itself you have lots of options: going heavy Ghost Arks, going heavy on the Night Scythes, an even mix of everything, or even a Warrior Phalanx (my personal favorite, but I admit I do have 100+ of the 2E metal Warriors). Sure, I can see how the AV13 wall can be annoying, that spamming the Wraith formation can be annoying, and so on. I really think a lot depends on how you actually play the army, and what choices you make.

For instance, my army is based strongly on the old 2E metals, so I mostly have Immortals, Warriors, Scarabs, and Destroyers. I've converted some Immortals into Lychguard and some Warriors into Deathmarks, and I do own two Night Scythes and two Anni/Command Barges, but I don't have a single Ghost Ark, Monolith, Wraith, or Flayed One, for example. So, when you think about it, I've been running a Reclamation Legion all these years anyway. I did feel a bit bad with my first game with the new book, as I tabled my opponent, but looking back, he was playing Black Templars MSU drop pods. I outnumbered and outgunned him by at least 2 to 1 (almost 3 to 1), so I realized later it was mostly just a bad match-up for him.

Not feeling bad in the slightest. People fielded triptide and tripple DK armies when I was playing (very) casual CSM, so why should I feel bad for them when I flip it around and bring something they have a hard time dealing with?

I am sure you won't be saying that once a few other codices get updated and get formations like Necrons do.

I am sure you will be going back to it just to survive and might even say how weak it is in the future.

Davor wrote:
I am sure you won't be saying that once a few other codices get updated and get formations like Necrons do.

I am sure you will be going back to it just to survive and might even say how weak it is in the future.

The formations alone aren't the problem with Necrons, its the fact that they get the formation benefits plus their detachment benefits. That's when it gets crazy.

In a world with IK, noone should feel bad for fielding anything.

Yeah honestly the Decurion while survivable isn't broke at all in fact whenever you see a list it's usually rather balanced.

The Decurion basically makes you play a balanced army and that's a good thing.

Hollismason wrote:
Yeah honestly the Decurion while survivable isn't broke at all in fact whenever you see a list it's usually rather balanced.

The Decurion basically makes you play a balanced army and that's a good thing.

And....you get to play fluffy Necrons. Which is a huge plus in my book. But I honestly don't see what people have a problem with more, the Detachment itself, or the fact that we get formation bonuses too.

I haven't played with the new dex yet but it looks insanely powerful.
-Want ignores cover tank hunters with the speed to catch serpent (who are also great at anti horde)?
Here have some tomb blades
-Want the most unbelievable effective for its points anti infantry assult unit in the game?
Here have some Flayed Ones.
-Want a unit that will gut a knight in one round of combat before it even uses its stomps, is only 25% more expensive than a 5 man termi unit when at 10 men itself an is both more survivable and has more damage output than them?
Here have some Lychguard
-Want a unit that hits before most other ap2 units in combat has ap2 shooting, has the same durability as saguniary guard against small arms but a greater durability against ap2 and has jump pack movement, for 5ppm less?
Here have some praetorians
-Want the most resiliant and also fearless beasts in the game who on top of that have rending and get to ignore terrain completely?
Here have some wraiths.
-Want a unit that gets to upgrade the bs of all the units around it to bs5, has psudo av13 and a 2 shot multimelta?
Here have a stalker
-Want a unit that rerolls 1's to hit (on what can be easily bs5) and rerolls all pens or wounds on st5 ap3 or st9 ap2 gauss weapons?
Here have a destroyer cult.
-Want a slightly downgraded version of azraels 4++ buff for a blob at considerable discout?
Here have a cryptek with chronometron

The Decurion increases the survivability of units that are already underpriced for what they do, that is the problem people will have, but people are focusing solely on the detachment, when it is the units in it that are an issue.
I'm not complaining though - im dusting off my necrons right now!

This is all based on on paper reading as I've not had a battle yet. But it's plain to see.

I don't see how the units are an issue, other than Wraiths, who could've easily been 5-10 points more expensive. Every unit got cheaper than in the previous codex and most received buffs, but none of them are undercosted in my opinion.

If we compare them in codex then no - there is brilliant internal balance.

Let's compare them to SM that are considered top mid tier to bottom top tier depending on who you are speaking to.

Ccw scouts compared to flayed ones.
-Scouts have ATSKNF, higher initiative, scout and a few weapon options which you pay for.
-Flayed ones have +1ws, 2 more attacks, deepstrike, shred, 4+rp, fear, MTC and ld10.
For 2pts more.

Lychguard compared to termis.
-Lychguard have better suurvivability against small arms (3+/4+rp is as good as 2+ mathematically but t5 is better than t4), have better survivability against ap2 (4+rp compared to 5++) and the same survivability against st10 ap2. They have ap2 I2 attacks so strike before unwieldy. They have armourbane so are lethal against vehicles. Can be given even better surbivability with chronometron, res orb or solar staff. Ld10.
-Termis have ATSKNF, and 1 better st in combat. Also have 2 bolter shots at range. Can take weapon upgrades but pay for them.
Termis are 12ppm (43%) more expensive than lychguard. Termis are cobsidered poor for their points, but as shown above, even if they were 28pts each lychguard would still be better.

Praetorians vs Saguinary guard (alright BA rather than SM)
-Praetorians are as durable as SG against small arms, but more durable against ap2. They hit at ap2 st6 (not just on the charge) before initiative. Their shots are 2 higher strength and ap2 rather than ap4.
-Sanguinary Guard have 1 extra shot at 6" greater range. They also get to reroll ine missed hit in assault each. They can also get st6 ap2 on the charge but at I1. Otherwise it is st4/5 ap3 at initiative. SG have ATSKNF.
Sanguinary Guard are 5ppm (18%) more expensive.

Tomb Blades (with gauss, shield vane and nebuloscope) vs Bikes.
-Tomb blades are twice as durable against everything compared to bikes (apart from st10 ap3 or better), have better st and ap to their guns, has ignores cover and gauss too. They also have an extra 6" turbo boost and get to ignore terrain on their move.
-Bikes have ATSKNF and can pay for upgraded weapons on some of the unit. They have better initiative.
For all these advantages, TBs cost 1ppm more.

u forgot termis have deepstrike, and are thus pretty independent while Lychguard need a transport or are useless as they have zero ranged firepower

Also close combat units with lack of ATSKNF and low Initiative make for very risky close combat units in general, because if they lose combat, the danger is very real that they can get swept. Only the Necron high LD acts as buffer.

How in the world are Praetorians S6 (unless youre taking about particle casters)?

I don't personally think Lychguard are undercosted by the way. Just in comparison to their equivalents which are overcosted.

Praetorions seem a couple of points undercosted, whilst both tomb blades and flayed ones could do with at least another couple of points.

Poly Ranger wrote:
If we compare them in codex then no - there is brilliant internal balance.

Let's compare them to SM that are considered top mid tier to bottom top tier depending on who you are speaking to.

Ccw scouts compared to flayed ones.
-Scouts have ATSKNF, higher initiative, scout and a few weapon options which you pay for.
-Flayed ones have +1ws, 2 more attacks, deepstrike, shred, 4+rp, fear, MTC and ld10.
For 2pts more.

Lychguard compared to termis.
-Lychguard have better suurvivability against small arms (3+/4+rp is as good as 2+ mathematically but t5 is better than t4), have better survivability against ap2 (4+rp compared to 5++) and the same survivability against st10 ap2. They have ap2 I2 attacks so strike before unwieldy. They have armourbane so are lethal against vehicles. Can be given even better surbivability with chronometron, res orb or solar staff. Ld10.
-Termis have ATSKNF, and 1 better st in combat. Also have 2 bolter shots at range. Can take weapon upgrades but pay for them.
Termis are 12ppm (43%) more expensive than lychguard. Termis are cobsidered poor for their points, but as shown above, even if they were 28pts each lychguard would still be better.

Praetorians vs Saguinary guard (alright BA rather than SM)
-Praetorians are as durable as SG against small arms, but more durable against ap2. They hit at ap2 st6 (not just on the charge) before initiative. Their shots are 2 higher strength and ap2 rather than ap4.
-Sanguinary Guard have 1 extra shot at 6" greater range. They also get to reroll ine missed hit in assault each. They can also get st6 ap2 on the charge but at I1. Otherwise it is st4/5 ap3 at initiative. SG have ATSKNF.
Sanguinary Guard are 5ppm (18%) more expensive.

Tomb Blades (with gauss, shield vane and nebuloscope) vs Bikes.
-Tomb blades are twice as durable against everything compared to bikes (apart from st10 ap3 or better), have better st and ap to their guns, has ignores cover and gauss too. They also have an extra 6" turbo boost and get to ignore terrain on their move.
-Bikes have ATSKNF and can pay for upgraded weapons on some of the unit. They have better initiative.
For all these advantages, TBs cost 1ppm more.

Well, I'm not arguing against you, but I do want to clarify some things to better help your argument.

Flayed Ones. Fear is useless 99.9% of the time. Most things ignore it, and most of the time you pass your LD test anyway. It is a free special rule essentially (Though fluff-wise, I'm glad they have it). They also do not have and cannot normally get MTC. That's just formation based units.

Lychguard. You are right with all of those points, but you didn't even compare the Sword and Board Lychguard's survivability against Termies. Shred through anything without a 2+ save, and will not die. Ever.

Praetorians. They are only S5 in CC and in shooting, the S6 pistols give up all of their AP2 for.

Tomb Blades. They are badass. No argument there.

Bunker with escape hatch and luchguard are sorted, especially if they are with a character who has solar staff so they have psudo invisibility on the turn they disembark.

Poly Ranger wrote:
I don't personally think Lychguard are undercosted by the way. Just in comparison to their equivalents which are overcosted.

Praetorions seem a couple of points undercosted, whilst both tomb blades and flayed ones could do with at least another couple of points.

Praetorians seem fine as they are. 28 points per model is not too cheap.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Having gotten a couple games under my belt (and also having watched all the MWG battle reports featuring the new Necrons) I have to say that going Decurion is like going Unbound. Except Decurion is even better than Unbound. I have yet to lose a game with the decurion and so does MWG.

Unless you're up against an absolute tailored Necron-killing list, the decurion will keep winning you games. It makes your army just so resilient that you end up losing between 1/3 and 2/3rd of your force at most by the end of most games.

So yeah. I personally am already tired of fielding the decurion - it doesnt make for fun games, neither to my opponent nor even to me now. CAD lists can be more varied and more fun for both players.

To me it seems that unbound didn't go over well and players adapted against it, GW being GW are pretty much force feeding the idea down peoples throats until they start asking for more.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
If we compare them in codex then no - there is brilliant internal balance.

Let's compare them to SM that are considered top mid tier to bottom top tier depending on who you are speaking to.

Ccw scouts compared to flayed ones.
-Scouts have ATSKNF, higher initiative, scout and a few weapon options which you pay for.
-Flayed ones have +1ws, 2 more attacks, deepstrike, shred, 4+rp, fear, MTC and ld10.
For 2pts more.

Lychguard compared to termis.
-Lychguard have better suurvivability against small arms (3+/4+rp is as good as 2+ mathematically but t5 is better than t4), have better survivability against ap2 (4+rp compared to 5++) and the same survivability against st10 ap2. They have ap2 I2 attacks so strike before unwieldy. They have armourbane so are lethal against vehicles. Can be given even better surbivability with chronometron, res orb or solar staff. Ld10.
-Termis have ATSKNF, and 1 better st in combat. Also have 2 bolter shots at range. Can take weapon upgrades but pay for them.
Termis are 12ppm (43%) more expensive than lychguard. Termis are cobsidered poor for their points, but as shown above, even if they were 28pts each lychguard would still be better.

Praetorians vs Saguinary guard (alright BA rather than SM)
-Praetorians are as durable as SG against small arms, but more durable against ap2. They hit at ap2 st6 (not just on the charge) before initiative. Their shots are 2 higher strength and ap2 rather than ap4.
-Sanguinary Guard have 1 extra shot at 6" greater range. They also get to reroll ine missed hit in assault each. They can also get st6 ap2 on the charge but at I1. Otherwise it is st4/5 ap3 at initiative. SG have ATSKNF.
Sanguinary Guard are 5ppm (18%) more expensive.

Tomb Blades (with gauss, shield vane and nebuloscope) vs Bikes.
-Tomb blades are twice as durable against everything compared to bikes (apart from st10 ap3 or better), have better st and ap to their guns, has ignores cover and gauss too. They also have an extra 6" turbo boost and get to ignore terrain on their move.
-Bikes have ATSKNF and can pay for upgraded weapons on some of the unit. They have better initiative.
For all these advantages, TBs cost 1ppm more.

Well, I'm not arguing against you, but I do want to clarify some things to better help your argument.

Flayed Ones. Fear is useless 99.9% of the time. Most things ignore it, and most of the time you pass your LD test anyway. It is a free special rule essentially (Though fluff-wise, I'm glad they have it). They also do not have and cannot normally get MTC. That's just formation based units.

Lychguard. You are right with all of those points, but you didn't even compare the Sword and Board Lychguard's survivability against Termies. Shred through anything without a 2+ save, and will not die. Ever.

Praetorians. They are only S5 in CC and in shooting, the S6 pistols give up all of their AP2 for.

Tomb Blades. They are badass. No argument there.

Good points, yeh I was comparing them with the decurion formation abilities. Completely forgot that rods were st5, I need to absorb this codex more.

Poly Ranger wrote:


Good points, yeh I was comparing them with the decurion formation abilities. Completely forgot that rods were st5, I need to absorb this codex more.

Sall good man. Overall though, yeah a lot of our stuff is better than comparative stuff in other codexes, but I think most of our stuff (except Wraiths) are priced appropriately.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I was meaning to point out that even in the Decurion, Flayed Ones don't have MTC.

Well, I got already bored playing against them. And you know what? Even without decurion. Played BA and Guard against them. Watched them creaming other armies. Managed 1 win so far. But that was more due to good rolling on my side and bad rolling from my opponent. It always felt like an uphill battle right from the start. Wraths and preatorians are just nuts. As is the resilence of every unit I was facing. My gaminggroup isnt playing very competativly in general, but I soon learned that I have to, if I want at least a bit fun against the new crons. I realised that I was already tailoring lists against crons, but still without success. Our cron player even just started to play them. He bought his first cron models at the end of last year. I offered him an army swap so he can feel how its to be on the receiving side...
you have to be playing against highest eldar cheese and tau riptides en masse to say that this codex is externally balanced. What should all the orks, dark eldar, dark angels etc. do against this?
Another thought: is it even possible to build a weak force? Even the allmighty eldar and tau can build a weak list. Something you could field against your 13 year old, wargaming starting cousin if you want to give him a good game and not beat him in turn 2.

Phew, had to throw that out.

rhavien wrote:
Another thought: is it even possible to build a weak force? Even the allmighty eldar and tau can build a weak list. Something you could field against your 13 year old, wargaming starting cousin if you want to give him a good game and not beat him in turn 2.

It's actively tricky.

That said, three monoliths and a deciever is a decent way to burn 800 points. Take minimum troops because all troops are good here, take a a Lord with a Voidblade and some useless upgrades as your HQ, then fill the rest with... I dunno, scarabs probably.

A lot of lists would struggle to take down 3 monoliths though and a deciever could use the monoliths to hide behind.
Scarabs is a good shout - they are probably the worst unit in the book now.

Hard to kill three, yes, but three battle cannons for 600 points isn't going to wow anyone.

I wouldn't call Scarabs the worst unit though, just awkwardly forced into only working in farm lists that offset their unreasonable buy in price.

@rhavien: are you kidding me? dark angels Deathwing lists are going to have a field day against Necrons