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This is a WIP of Homebrew rules my local group is working on to eventually balance out all the armies by making them roughly the same power level. Nothing is final and we only have Vanilla Marines mostly (sorta) done.
We are hoping the dakka community can look these over and give CONSTRUCTIVE feedback, and maybe some help with the other armies since we don't have enough players with a big enough spread of armies. We have at least one player who plays at least one of the armies, but everyone has a force of space marines.
Many of these rules for space marines can be applied to other space marines and other armies using some of the same weapons. Again, these rules are NOT complete and still being tested. The vehicle changes are just a crazy idea we are changing and will probably not stay.
Again we are looking for CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, so if all you are gonna do is tear things down and not offer anything in return like reasoning or a fix you would think is better, then PLEASE don't comment.
I would like to extend special thanks to the creator of this thread http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152367-codex-iron-hands/page-51#entry3439709, and I would like to give attention to Lythrandire Biehrellian and his thread here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/634211.page.



Changes to the Psychic Phase
-Limit of 15 warp charges for games 2000 points or less (does not include the random d6 charges). (This is more of for the benefit of armies that can't field a lot of psykers so they can't be completely shut down.)
-Add 8 additional charges for each 1000 points above 2000 (makes sense to have more charges in bigger games)
-No limit for apocalypse games (a limit doesn't makes sense at all in apoc)
-Manifesting the Force power never causes perils of the warp (Seems a little excessive to have perils on force)

Changes to the Assault Phase (this is to make charge a little more reliable and punish people for not using strategy. There should be consequences for making a giant gun line if the opponent can get in to charge)
-Charge range for models with a 6” move is 3+d6”
-Charge range for models with a 12+” move is 5+d6”
-Slow and Purposeful models get -1” to charge range
-Relentless models get +1” to charge range
-Units may make a Consolidation charge if the consolidation distance is enough allow them to make base to base contact with opposing models as per the usual charge rules
-All other rules for assault apply (an extra attack for charging, enemy gets overwatch if they are allowed)
-A unit may only make one consolidation charge per assault phase
-consolidation charges are resolved after the initial assault phase

Changes to Special Rules and new Special Rules
-Deepstrike
+A unit that deepstrikes may only be fired at with snapshots from the turn they deepstrike until the start of the controlling player's next turn (this is to prevent deepstriking units from being shot off the board before they get to do anything, but still lets them be shot down or destroyed by assaults if they don't deepstrike intelligently)
-Full Range (fixes a lot of issues with grey knights and makes noon terminators more viable)
+A Salvo weapon with this special rule ignores the range penalty of the weapon.

Changes to weapons and new weapons
-Storm Bolters (makes them worth their 5 points without making them crazy. I don't mind if there is a counter to a certain army so long as the other army in turn has a counter or the first army is countered by another)
+are now S4 AP5 Assault 3 and may be fired at full BS during overwatch
-Pistols (These changes are to preserve them having a role and purpose with the change to bolters without being overwhelming. The overwatch rule may need to be removed or tweaked. Had to simplify things due to complexity so changed a few things)
+May be fired at full BS during overwatch
+Use their shooting profile in melee if they lack a melee weapon
+A model with two pistols gets two shots in melee (if they don't have a melee weapon) and must make at least one attack with each in melee
+A model with a melee weapon and a pistol gets an extra attack with the melee weapon
-Chainswords (changed to keep them competative with pistols and both being ap5 makes sense and isn't game breaking contrary to popular belief)
+Chainswords are now S User AP5
+Models able to take power weapons may be upgraded with a power chainsword called a Ripper Sword (this makes for an interseting 20pt option that helps fill a gap between cheaper and more expensive melee upgrades. Inspired by space wolves. Plus chainswords look awesome)
+Ripper Swords are S+1 AP3 Melee and cost 20pts
-Bolters (changed to give more tactical flexibility than anything. It doesn't make sense to not allow an assault simply because you fired two shots)
+Up to 12” S4 AP5 Assault 2
+12” to 24” S4 AP5 Assault 1
-Heavy Bolters (this change is to give a use for heavy bolters even if that role is just about tactical marine exclusive)
+36” S5 AP4 Salvo ¾
-Power Weapons (the power weapons at 15 points were just too expensive for what they do especially when it is only on one unit)
+Power Sword/Axe/Maul now cost 10pts
-Plasma and Grav Pistols cost 10pts (again these pistols are overly expensive for what they do. Why should a person pay the price for a grav-gun or a plasma gun and get a worse weapon. Though the overwatch rule may change this)
-Combi Weapons (flamer/grav/plasma/melta) (10 pts for a one shot item is too much)
+Cost 5 points
-Missile Launchers (10 pts for a skyfire missile is too much)
+Flakk upgrade costs 5 pts
-Combi-Bolters (changed to closer match storm bolters but preserve their flavor. Done more of for chaos marines than anything else)
+Up to 12” S4 AP5 Assault 3, Twin-linked
+12” to 24” S4 AP5 Assault 2, Twin-linked
-Psycannon Weapons (like I mention before this was done to fix some gk issues)
+All Psycannon Weapons gain the Full Range Special Rule
-Axe of Mechanus (makes for an interesting option a person might actually take on a techmarine, MotF, or Iron Father as apposed to the ordinary power axe)
+Special Cogged-toothed power axe that may be taken by Techmarines, Masters of the Forge, and Iron Fathers
+Stats of the Axe of Mechanus are: S+2 AP2 Initiative -1 melee, Specialist
+Cost is 25pts
-Crozius Arcanum Maximus (this is to make chaplains into a anti-meq hq and put him in line with a lot of the units you really want to put him with)
+A chaplain may exchange his Crozius Arcanum for this for 20pts
+It has the following profile: S+2 AP3 melee, concussive

Changes to Bikes
-Bikes do not give +1 toughness

Changes to armor
-Artificer Armor (The price drop is because of Space Wolves. Their Rune armor gives 2+/6++ for 20pts)
+Cost is now 15pts regardless of HQ
-Tactical Dreadnought Armor (This is to make TDA a competitive upgrade to bikes)
+Cost is now 25pts regardless of HQ
+Grants Move through cover
+If a model gets a 5++ or better invulnerable save from another source TDA instead grants a 5+ FNP

Changes to Chapter Tactics
-Iron Hands replace The Flesh is Weak with Inviolate Armour (The flesh is weak is a horrible chapter tactic. FNP is only good if you can get it down to 5+ or better and quite frankly I am fine with necrons doing it and doing it better. Inviolate armour makes the iron hands a more assault focused army)
+Inviolate Armour: Models in this detatchment reduce the strength of all shooting attacks against them by -1

Changes to Characters (at 10 pts the upgrade isn't compelling unless it is an apoc game)
-Upgrading a sergeant to a veteran sergeant is 5pts

Changes to FOC
-Removed Units
+Bike squads (I only ever seen them run as troops anyway, and making them as an upgrade to tacticals makes sense)
+Terminator Captain (I have no idea why this unit hasn't been folded into the captain already)
-Moved Units
+All Flyers except Super Heavy Flyers are now Fast choices (As far as I know most real life armies fly their jets/planes in groups. I see no reason why 40k would do any different it just makes good sense.)
+Assault Squads are now Troops (done in part for blood angels. These are only seperate from tacticals because it doesn't makes sense to have jump pack marines holding heavy weapons to me)
+Devastator Squads are now Troops (The heavy section of space marines is over saturated with better options than these guys and they feel like more of a back field objective holding defensive unit. Tacticals grab the objectives but devs hold on to them)

Changes to HQ units
-Biker HQ
+All Bike HQ may buy Hit & Run or Skilled Rider for all Bikes with the same chapter tactics for 40pts
+If you have two Bike HQ with the same chapter tactics you may purchase Hit & Run and Skilled Rider for all bikes with the same chapter tactics for 100pts
-Captains
+May take TDA for 25pts
+Captains wearing TDA may take the same options as the Terminator Captains
+Captains wearing TDA count as Terminator Captains for all purposes
-Chaplains (drop due to their special weapon being a power maul with a fancy name)
+Cost 85 pts
+May take a Crozius Arcanum Maximus
-Master of the Forge (Their rules are situational depending on army and build. They are a more of a support character, and they wer artificer armour which is getting a price drop. Also they are techmarines with an extra wound, +1 BS and lord of the armoury.)
+Cost 70 pts
+May take an Axe of Mechanus
-Techmarine (These guys are horrible at 50pts stock. They become a decent choice at 30 pts)
+Cost 30 pts
+May take an Axe of Mechanus
-Servitors (done for biker techmarines and MOTF)
+May be upgraded with bikes for 7 ppm
-Honour Guard (guards should have access to shields and the tda and bike changes allow for a few more interesting options for them. Like actually running them with their CM)
+Base cost is 80pts
+Entire unit may take bikes for 7 ppm
+Any Honour Guard may take a combat shield for 5 pts
+The Chapter Champion may take a combat shield for 5 pts or a Storm Shield for 10 pts
+Entire unit may take TDA for 5 ppm
-Command Squad (Makes sense for heavy TDA armies)
+Entire Squad May take TDA for 7 ppm

Changes to Troop Units
-Tactical Marines (tacticals have many issues mostly with their lack of firepower or rather their lack of focus of it. With an extra special they become a better tactical unit. The heavy option is more of for bike squads or a cheap objective sitter. The chainsword is for those playing a more assault style)
+Up to two Space Marines may take an item from the special weapons list
+Up to one Space Marine may take an item from the heavy weapons list
+Entire Squad may take Chainswords for 1 ppm
+Entire squad may take bikes for 7 ppm and space marines with heavy weapons must be upgraded to an attack bike for 21 ppm (still pays for the heavy weapon)
+A Bike Tactical Squad Counts as a Bike Squad for all purposes
-Crusader Squad (much of what applies to tacticals applies to these guys as well)
+Up to two Initiates may take a weapon form the special weapons list
+Entire Squad may take chainswords for 1 ppm
-Assault Squad (They were a bit too expensive and a bit lacking on firepower imo though better than tacticals The bolt pistol is to make them a bit better against being assaulted)
+Cost 16ppm
+Up to three space marines may replace their bolt pistols for one of the following: flamer 5pts, Plasma pistol 10 pts, Grav-pistol 10 points
+Entire Squad may take an additional Bolt Pistol for 1 ppm
-Devastator Squad (Split fire makes sense these guys are basically long fangs with one less heavy and more bullet catchers)
+Gain the Split Fire special rule

Elite Unit Changes
-Vanguard Veterans (These guys were way too expensive and they still have to pay to get the jump pack and bikes make for an interesting choice for them. An expensive alternative to jump packs. They can take an extra bolt pistol for the same reason as the assault squad)
+Cost 16 ppm
+Any model may take a combat shield for 5pts
+Entire squad may take an additional bolt pistol for 1ppm
+Entire Squad may take Bikes for 7 ppm
-Sternguard Veterans (the extra heavy or special makes sense on these guys)
+Three veterans may each take one item from either the special or heavy weapons list
+Entire Squad may take chainswords for 1ppm
-Terminator Assault Squad (twin LC termies stink at 40ppm but decent at 30. TH/SS are fine at 45 wit hthe changes to TDA)
+Terminators with two lightning claws are 30 pts
+Any terminator may replace his two lightning claws with a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield for 15 pts
-Terminator Squad (termies have a lot of issues many of them addressed in other threads dedicated solely to that issue. I think a lot of their issues are solved with these changes, and the new heavy weapon choices make sense and are fitting. They allow tac termies to specialize as tacticals can.)
+A terminator with a power weapon and storm bolter is 30 ppm
+Any terminator may replace hos power weapon with a power fist for 5 points or a chainfist for 10 points
+Up to two terminators may choose one of the following: replace storm bolter with heavy flamer 5 pts, replace storm bolter with an assault cannon 20pts, replace storm bolter with a plasma cannon 10 pts, replace storm bolter with a grav-cannon for 30pts, or Take a Cyclone Missile Launcher for 25 pts
-Legion of the Damned (These guys needed a little firepower and the bikes are more of for modeling reasons but are fair at the additional points cost)
+Up to two Legionnaires may replace his boltgun with a flamer, meltagun, or plasma gun
+Up to two different Legionnaires may take an item form the heavy weapons list
+Entire squad may take bikes for 7 ppm and Legionnaires with heavy weapons must be upgraded to an attack bike for 21 ppm (still pays for the heavy weapon)
+Legionnaires on bikes lose Slow and purposeful
+Legionnaires on attack bikes have 2 wounds and 3 attacks

Changes to Fast Units
-Attack Bike Squad (these changes normalizes things for tacticals and the cost makes more sense)
+Cost for one bike is 35 points + the cost of the heavy weapon
+ May choose these weapons: Heavy Bolter, Multi-Melta, Missile Launcher (may take Flakk), Plasma Cannon, and Lascannon

Changes to Vehicle Special rules
-Dreadnought (venerable giving eternal warrior is fitting and worthwhile.)
+Venerable now costs 40 points and grants eternal warrior in addition to the +1 WS and +1 BS

Changes to vehicle units
-Flyers
+All Flyers that start in reserve may take up to two Stormtalons.
+These storm talons do not take up any FOC slots

Changes to Dedicated Transports
-Razorbacks (razorbacks are slightly overcosted for what they do)
+Cost 50 points

Changes to Elite Vehicles
-Dreadnought (Dreadnoughts are 5 points overcosted)
+Now costs 95 points
-Ironclad Dreadnought (lets be honest here the first thing you do with this guy is trade in the storm bolter for a heavy flamer, and you should storm bolters on this platform regardless of the upgrade are gak and that is ok. You are going to be buying a lot of upgrades for these guys to make sure they do the job they are supposed to do, and dreadnoughts in general are not that great. I feel 10 points is a fair price drop)
+Now costs 125 points

Changes to Heavy Vehicles
-Hunter (with the change of the skyfire rule being cheaper is appropriate)
+Costs 55 points
-Stalker (same issue as the hunter)
+Costs 60 points
-Vindicator (this is a ironclad issue. It is good but it takes quite a bit of points to make it so.)
+Costs 110 points
-Land Raider
+Costs 230 points
+Carries 14 models
-Land Raider Redeemer
+Costs 225 points
+Carries 16 models
-Land Raider Crusader
+Costs 235 points
+Carries 20 models

Changes to Space Marine Chapters
-Iron Hands (changed to actually fit the fluff better. Inspiration from 30k and a Fandex)
+Clan Raukaan Warlord Trait number 3 The Flesh is Weak now gives a 6+ FNP or +1 FNP whichever is better to the warlord

+Do not have Chaplains, Terminator Assault Squads or Terminator Squads

+Stand and Fight: All models with the Inviolate Armour chapter tactic must pass a leadership test in order to make sweeping advances after winning an assault or to make a run move in the shooting phase. In addition models with this rule may not voluntarily go to ground.

+Rigid Tactics: An Iron hands detatchment may not have more units with the Inviolate Armour chapter tactic in total (including independent characters) with the jump infantry, or bike types than it does with the infantry type.

+Iron Hands have no limit to the number of techmarines they may take

+Must take an extra HQ in each CAD in games above 1000 points

+Any HQ may be upgraded to an Iron Father
+All Iron fathers have the zealot, Blessing of the Omnissiah, and Lord of the armoury special rules; and may replace a weapon with the axe of mechanus
+All Iron fathers except the Master of the Forge have a servo arm that may be upgraded to a servo harness for 25 points
+Masters of the Forge with a Conversion Beamer may purchase a servo arm for 10 points
+All Iron Fathers may purchase a Mechanus Protectiva (grants a 4+ invulnerable save or improves the invulnerable save by +1) for 20 points.
+Masters of the Forge Iron Fathers gain +1 WS and cost 40 points
+Chapter Masters and Captains may be Upgraded to an Iron Father for 40 points
+Librarians may be upgraded to Iron Fathers for 45pts and may take a special Axe of Mechanus with the force rule

+Any Character may take a Cyber Familiar (grants a 6+ invulnerable save or improves the invulnerable save by +1) for 15pts

+Sergeants and Veteran Sergeants may exchange all wargear for a power weapon, storm bolter,
and Tactical Dreadnought Armor for 30 points
+Any squad with a Terminator Sergeant may take a Land Raider (any type) or Storm Raven Gunship as a Dedicated Transport
+Units with a Terminator Sergeant and/or Independent Characters in TDA gain Relentless and Move Thorough Cover (keep in mind that these units may not board a rhino or razorback unless they combat squad, so unless they purchase an expensive transport they are going to be foot slogging)

That's a lot of changes. Just a couple thoughts - giving everything access to bikes kinda makes everything have less character and kind of all the same.
The tactical option for 2 special weapons AND 1 heavy maybe could be 1 special and 1 heavy OR special.
Ripperswords sound good. Kind of like a frost blade I suppose.
Maybe instead of the profile changes to boltguns and heavy bolters maybe marines could have "relentless - bolt weapons".
I like the Iron Hands stuff.

The only thing that I see a problem with is storm bolters firing overwatch at full BS. That might be a tad ridiculous. I have used kroot to tie up termies before, and this would cause them to get shredded before they could get there, even more so then they already are. Just the assault three seems fine.

Just wondering why the tactical marine cost was lowered? They have now gotten better because they can over watch at full BS with their pistols.

I'm up to 5 pts combi-flamers and ripper swords. Other stuff is pure

You want the same power level with WHAT exactly?

 Necrosis wrote:
Just wondering why the tactical marine cost was lowered? They have now gotten better because they can over watch at full BS with their pistols.

I don't think "lack of overwatch" is on the tip of everybody's tongue when describing the failing of tactical marines.

Things I would change:

-Get rid of random wl traits and random psychic powers. Make some things selectable and able to be planned around. Simultaneously murder over the top powers like invis while you're in there.
-make consolidation charges either disordered charges or on hold until the next assault phase. I love me some assault, and I agree that it's generally the assaultee's fault for having a unit too close to the melee, but a straight up 2nd charge with all bonuses is kind of intense.
-I like the deep strike "small reaction time window" and storm bolter overwatch. Perhaps make the interceptor ability bypass the snapshot deep strikers rule.
-the pistols in melee thing makes sense, but seems kind of complicated to word out on paper, as well as explain to new people. Also seems like a lot of separate extra rolls to make. I think I'd nix this idea unless someone has a good idea on how to streamline it a lot more.
-god yes at chainswords having a profile, as well as special melee weapons and combi's being priced a bit more sanely.
-terminator fixes. Always good. If this was official I'd totally start dusting off some of my never-finished termi models and start getting them dressed up for some games.
-where is the cost for jump packs on vanguard vets?
-I believe it is long past time to reduce the cost of a vet sarge upgrade. +1a and +1 ld on a marine is generally a bad buy at 10 points, and only suggested if you're going to be loading him up with cc wargear.
-was hoping you'd address cover as either a ward save or hit mod. Every time I see a well-armored model bite it because their toe was sticking out from behind a wall and got grazed, the part of my brain that tries to make rational sense of rules vs. logic explodes.
-you may also look into the "hull saves" ideas for medium armor vehicles to stop bursting into flames as soon as a serpent looks at them funny.

Isn't giving them AP5 essentially giving them a pistol in melee?

No offense but this "balancing" is like most 'balancing' threads; ways to make your codex even cheesier (for example the Grey Knight one wanting storm shields on Dreadknights and Paladins).

I see no reason not to spam more bikes with those changes. In fact, you buffed bikes even more.

Yeah no offense but all these changes makes SM WAY overpowered, they're fine as they are, you're basically turning them all into "movie marines", reducing costs on one hand while boosting most gear options on the other hand, "cheap" units whose most weapons are now assault and can fire overwatch at full BS while only being snap shot at when deep striking, etc...

Iron Hands chapter tactics are OP compared to any other chapter tactic. If you paid for it (like plague marines) it would be more reasonable but when the choice is basically T6 bikes, T5 marines, and AV15 Land raiders vs skilled rider or re-rolling some bolters once per game it's a really freaking easy choice. Not to mention OP against everything else too without an appropriate price increase.

Obviously, a lot of thought went into it. Changes are needed, but there are some issues here.

-Podded shooty Marines would be godly, for instance. Perhaps instead of 'Snapshots at Deep Strikers', how about something like this?:
-"Deep strikers may deep strike during the Assault phase instead of the Shooting phase. If they choose to do so, any shooting directed at them is at [BS-2, reroll direct hits].". Allows for assaulty units protecting themselves, without making shooty /psyker deep strikers broken.
-Alternately, Deep Strikers may Jink upon landing. Doing so applies to the following enemy shooting phase.

For Boltguns and Pistols, it seems like you're rewriting weapon types, but inconsistently. How about something more like this?
-Pistol [X] - (default 1) - get X shots, but also may make X attacks with that profile in CC in addition to their standard attacks.
Utilising this rule replaces any bonus from multiple weapons.
Pistol Overwatch - Full BS
-Assault [X] - as now
Assault Overwatch - -1BS
-Rapid Fire [X] - May do one of the following:
--If stationary (or counts as), 1x shots at full range, cannot charge
--If stationary (or counts as), 2x shots at half range, can disordered charge
--1x shot at half range, can disordered charge
--2x shots at half range, cannot charge
Rapid Fire Overwatch - -2BS, 2x shots
Salvo [X1/X2] - may:
--X1 shots and can disordered charge
--If stationary, X2 shots, cannot charge
Overwatch - snapfire (or bs-3, reroll direct hits) X1 shots
Heavy [X] - as now
Overwatch - snapfire (or bs -3, reroll direct hits)

Obviously, some iteration is necessary. But Bolters are the perfect example of Rapid Fire weapons. And should remain as such.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for Marine-specific stuff, some first thoughts:

Troops - should be Tacs and Scouts. And Crusader squads. Dev, ASM, or Bike-heavy lists should be alternate detachments. For instance:
Dev Company:
2-10 Dev squads
1-2 HQ
0-3 troops/FA/Elites/other HS
Would still be godly for IH, with their tankhunter, but not quite as bad. If your dogma is 'Blast them to hell with heavy weapons', ObSec isn't appropriate on the already-scoring Dev squads. If enemy troops are continuing to contest the Devs objectives, I'd say they deserve it.

Same idea with Bikes (/ASM). If your doctrine is Blitz, if you get tied up/bogged down, thats not a success. So Bikes shouldn't get ObSec either.

Relentless Marines - seems a bit too much. Perhaps Snapfire due to moving at -2? Or perhaps BS-2 or3 should be what Snapfire is anyways? Flat-out relentless is a bit much, though.

More options? Definitely. However, options past the Codex Astartes should cost more. So a second specialist weapon? Perhaps at +10 points?

Add a CCW to Tacs/Devs for, say, 1-2 ppm? I like that idea.

Second Pistol for all ASMs? Seems a bit odd at 1ppm for the whole squad. Perhaps still 1 ppm, but I would think on a per-model base? Looks cooler to have some gunslingers and some traditional, if a bit non compliant. But deploying a full squad with dual pistols seems off.

Also, what about a non-Compliant option of something like 2ppm to replace ASM CCWs with Boltguns? Possibpy unlocking the full range of Tac options? Incredibly non-Compliant, but having the option and seeing it from time to time (hopefully non-competatively) would be cool. Not in my chapter, but still.

What about Meltaguns on vanilla ASMs? It always felt odd that they couldn't do that.

Termies - seems a bit odd to have FnP, especially conditionally. I'd rather see 2W, if it is needed. That or a good price cut. Or introduce stacking saves, but I don't think you are going in that direction.

Just my first thoughts.

I haven't read through a ton of it yet, but limiting warp dice doesnt solve anything, summoning heavy lists simply arent that great.

I am also kind of tired of people saying assault sucks so much this edition. I play exclusively assault armies and I am doing just fine. The problem is to be a viable assault unit you need to be able to move 12 inches a turn and either be really cheap, or have some way to gain insane durability. Polarizing 12 and 6 inch movers even more solves nothing.


Also, that deepstrike rule is bonkers. That rule alone would absolutely destroy the meta.

There is so much wrong in this post! Every change given to them is a buff and as an ork player having ap of 5 or better on every single weapon is ridiculous. Space Marines do not even need a buff at this point in time.

mhalko1 wrote:
There is so much wrong in this post! Every change given to them is a buff and as an ork player having ap of 5 or better on every single weapon is ridiculous. Space Marines do not even need a buff at this point in time.

Well, you forgot the #1 change to their basic rules; And They Shall Know No Fairness!

I don't see any of the logic to any of this. Lots of things that didn't need it got buffed, things that didn't need it got nerfed, and the actual problems didn't change. I'm on my phone in an airport right now so I can't go into a lot of detail, will go through specifics later, but the biggest 'why?' reaction I had was at giving the White Scars' Chapter Tactics to everyone without giving the White Scars anything and replacing the Iron Hands' already-good Chapter Tactics with an insanely powerful one. I suspect the authors play an Iron Hands bike list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(As to being constructive I'd suggest starting with smaller changes instead of trying to change everything all at once; don't touch something unless you can point at a specific reason it needs it. Your mantra should be "why do I change this?", not " why don't I change this?")

I will start off by saying thank you to those who are providing constructive criticism. Second I would like to say that I will be making some changes do to your criticism, and I will try and explain the reason for the changes (which is something that should have been done to begin with). I would like to address a few issues right now though. I agree that hit & run and skilled rider for just taking two biker hqs is a bit much after actually playtesting it. I am thinking it should be a 40pt upgrade to a bike hq for one of the abilities and 100 pts for both, and still needing to have two biker hqs to get both. That way you are paying a LOT for it. I will be tweaking the costs of some things to be more expensive. As far as the Iron Hands chapter tactics changes, I accidentally left off a few things and skewed the numbers wrong. Thats what happens when you don't have your material right in front of you. As far as those saying the 6+ fnp is a good chapter tactic you are wrong. It stinks. It literally makes no difference. As far as inviolate armor chapter tactic goes it is not as powerful as you would think. I can say taht after having played some 30k vs 40k games (using my 40k models as proxies). If the issue is the terminator sergeants rules keep in mind that with a terminator sergeant you can't enter a rhino, razorback or drop pod unless you combat squad. Which means unless to buy the expensive transport options you are foot slogging. My group and I have tested a lot of these things one at a time, individually, but we are trying to balance things as a WHOLE. Hence why we are putting it all together. Thank you again to those of you who are being constructive and keeping things respectful and providing details. The final goal is to have all armies around the same power level as the top 3 armies. I suppose we could have just nerfed the top 3 armies and buffed all the bottom armies, but I have a feeling that would be a less well received idea overall.

The problem with bringing everyone up to the top3 (Eldar, SM, Demons right now?), is that we are just feeding inflation, and everyone gets the shaft until they get updated next.

GW had a spate of several reasonably-balanced codecies in a row, with many armies being about equal already, and most others just a couple offenders away from being about right too.

Wouldn't it make more sense to balance towards that pack? Easier, less crazy gak, less angry arguments, etc? Most of the truly crazy stuff most people would support nerfing.

Furthermore, say we buff everyone so they match Serpent Spam or GravStar. We just continue to relegate Falcons and Banshees and non-Davu Avengers and Tac Marines to the shelves. Is that really what we want to do?

I really think we should aim for the about-middle, not the top, balance-wise.

I don't think this approach is correct. I've read a dev blog about Starcraft, and way back in the day, they started by making the zergling, the zealot, and the marine. They started with initial balance, and then the kept rebalancing as they added units to the game.

That's what should be done here.

All troops should be balanced against each other before moving on to more complicated units. As the more advanced units are introduced, you will have the baseline troops to go back and reference. After a few rounds of advanced units, the troops can be rebalanced at that point before moving on. As it stands now, most troop-level firepower is irrelevant. How many tac squads does it take to equal one squad of dev cents? This is a huge reason many players minimize investment in troops.

Well do to complaints and flat out attacks I think I will just keep our house rules house rules and not bother posting them. I only bothered sharing beacuase I was asked to, and I truly do want a balanced game. Teaches me to share.

Martel stated what I wanted to achieve better than I did, and quite frankly I didn't post this with the intention of people berating me. Don't get me wrong I don't mind negative criticism, but I want there to actually be a discussion of what is good and what is bad and why.

If nothing else I hoped to promote an actual discusion of how to balance the game as a whole instead of having this constant flux of this army/unit is crap this one is good blah blah blah. And the whole model of this codex is good until the next one for the next army comes out is a really bad one..

I will post up the rules changes and amendments for what has already been done because I said I would. I had hoped to get rid of death stars and such simply by making all options viable options.

I am sorry if I am being a jerk but I am getting frustrated with all the "this and that are bad but we really don't want to do or try anything to fix it" or the only way to fix it is my idea and no one elses.

If you have ideas on how to fix the game or make it better in some way than please put it up

 NorseSig wrote:
Well do to complaints and flat out attacks I think I will just keep our house rules house rules and not bother posting them. I only bothered sharing beacuase I was asked to, and I truly do want a balanced game. Teaches me to share.

Martel stated what I wanted to achieve better than I did, and quite frankly I didn't post this with the intention of people berating me. Don't get me wrong I don't mind negative criticism, but I want there to actually be a discussion of what is good and what is bad and why.

If nothing else I hoped to promote an actual discusion of how to balance the game as a whole instead of having this constant flux of this army/unit is crap this one is good blah blah blah. And the whole model of this codex is good until the next one for the next army comes out is a really bad one..

I will post up the rules changes and amendments for what has already been done because I said I would. I had hoped to get rid of death stars and such simply by making all options viable options.

I am sorry if I am being a jerk but I am getting frustrated with all the "this and that are bad but we really don't want to do or try anything to fix it" or the only way to fix it is my idea and no one elses.

If you have ideas on how to fix the game or make it better in some way than please put it up

You have fallen into the "constructive criticism" trap, which is the false belief that someone must agree with or affirm your idea to some extent for their critique to have value. That is simply not true; in this case the central critique is simply that your proposed changes do not in fact balance the game, they merely make a strong army even stronger and are thus unnecessary.

You have fallen into the "constructive criticism" trap, which is the false belief that someone must agree with or affirm your idea to some extent for their critique to have value. That is simply not true; in this case the central critique is simply that your proposed changes do not in fact balance the game, they merely make a strong army even stronger and are thus unnecessary.

This actually isn't true at all, but you are entitled to your opinion.

The last update on this that I plan to do is up.

Honestly, I just don't get why we can't discuss ANYTHING in this community without the vitriol that seems to come with it.

You really dont need to change so fethin much.

Adjust the point costs of things that exist already, and fix anything that is actually broken (rules wise)

I didn't mean to come across as vitriolic. I was hoping to hash out what I saw as issues in the rebalancing.

Better balance in the game would be a good thing. Unfortunately, not only is it easy to screw up, but also there are many different opionins on what it means to do it right.

Sorry the post didn't start the conversations you wanted to. I was hoping it would.

 NorseSig wrote:
Well do to complaints and flat out attacks I think I will just keep our house rules house rules and not bother posting them. I only bothered sharing beacuase I was asked to, and I truly do want a balanced game. Teaches me to share.

Martel stated what I wanted to achieve better than I did, and quite frankly I didn't post this with the intention of people berating me. Don't get me wrong I don't mind negative criticism, but I want there to actually be a discussion of what is good and what is bad and why.

If nothing else I hoped to promote an actual discusion of how to balance the game as a whole instead of having this constant flux of this army/unit is crap this one is good blah blah blah. And the whole model of this codex is good until the next one for the next army comes out is a really bad one..

I will post up the rules changes and amendments for what has already been done because I said I would. I had hoped to get rid of death stars and such simply by making all options viable options.

I am sorry if I am being a jerk but I am getting frustrated with all the "this and that are bad but we really don't want to do or try anything to fix it" or the only way to fix it is my idea and no one elses.

If you have ideas on how to fix the game or make it better in some way than please put it up

I wasn't trying to berate you, I was trying to bring in a proven method and apply it to this problem. Unless anyone thinks that GW is better at balancing than Blizzard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:
You really dont need to change so fethin much.

Adjust the point costs of things that exist already, and fix anything that is actually broken (rules wise)

I disagree vehemently with this. The game needs to shift to a D10 to add some granulation to a game with so many units. This shift would make the OP's job much easier.

Martel732 wrote:

I disagree vehemently with this. The game needs to shift to a D10 to add some granulation to a game with so many units. This shift would make the OP's job much easier.

Oh no If he is trying to out right BALANCE the game, it honestly needs to be taken to the wood chipper and rebuilt from the ground up. personlly remove the concept of tanks and keep it all nicely together with the T system. D10 would be fine in a smaller scale game. Otherwise the 6 would be fine if there where minimal special snowflake rules and such.

Otherwise all da above is just a bandage to an already septic wound.

Edit: At that If you really wana try to save this system, instead of starting with the space marine boaster poys, you should start by fixing the BRB, clean up all the wording, fix any and all issue rules (im looking at you ruins and PE and reroll nonsenses) and streamline the gak out of it (feth all this random rolling nonsens (i have no issues with random if its a thing concerning exploding vehicles or critical damage charts where it can be augmented with modifiers (like melta ap1 and stuff)).

As well im all for warhammer 40k 7.1 dakka dakka bandage edition with all the house rules we can some how agree on.

I think D10 is fine for a larger game, as well. It's just granulating the math.

I think you're the one person he felt validated by, Martel.

Blizzard did a great job of balance, especially compared to contemporaries, with StarCraft, and when I played it, WoW. Not perfect, but that is all but impossible in an asymmetric game (Isn't even Chess believed to be slightly biased towards White?).

The true key, in my opinion, was the high frequency of changes, coupled with their subtlety. A sub-1% change somewhere quite frequently dialed back the broken, or brought the useless back to the table.

Their kind of frequency isn't really feasible, but ongoing discussion, and frequent changes, are.

Martel732 wrote:
I think D10 is fine for a larger game, as well. It's just granulating the math.

Well its fine when you need at most 5-10 per unit. but some armies have that wonderful way of needing several hundred. and its already a pain rolling a full 36 cube of dice 3 times.

Its my only concern. could be fixed with averages rolls for bigger unit.

Edit: OR just RPGing it and using multiple different types of dice.

I didn't mean to come across as vitriolic. I was hoping to hash out what I saw as issues in the rebalancing.

Better balance in the game would be a good thing. Unfortunately, not only is it easy to screw up, but also there are many different opionins on what it means to do it right.

Sorry the post didn't start the conversations you wanted to. I was hoping it would.

My comments weren't directed to you or Martel. You guys have actually been helpful.

Part of the issue with marines is they cost a lot which they should, but they are lacking some punch for those points, and due to meta die as easily as others. My idea was to drop the price of a number of the units by 5 to 10 points total and give them an extra special or heavy as was appropriate for the purpose of the unit to make them a little less schitzo and give them a bit more direction which is something you HAVE to have. I also want to preserve army fluff, and make different styles of play viable. I think space marines are the starting point simply because there are more space marine armies than armies of any other type.