Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I saw this tactic in The World XEaters army list. Im curious if it actually works rules wise though.

Put an axe on a lord. When he gets 7 blood tithe , turn him into a Daemon Prince. Because he is removed due to the daemon prince summoning, the axe triggers and you get a free bloodthirster. Seems to good to be true

And you keep the axe to get another one when the DP dies too.

My friend seems to think that it wont work due to the rules for summoning and that the lord becomes the Daemon Prince.

Is it triggered because the lord is removed as a casualty and not replaced with the Daemon prince>?

I wouldn't worry about the axe of ruin. Bloodthirsters have 5 wounds and when summoned this way loose D3 wounds a turn. Turn one it is summoned and will do nothing. Turn two it will start swooping and getting ready for a charge. Turn three it can charge something and then will probably die to its D3 wound lose. Hell, it will kill itself almost a quarter of the time on its second turn. On average it will have one wound after it has started to swoop, meaning you can shoot at it with full bs and just need to do one T6 sv3+ wound. Keep in mind all of this is happening turn 3+ so if your opponent gets really lucky and only rolls ones the bloodthirster still won't be around very long as the game will be ending.

It's not quite that bad , as chances are it will be summoned in the opponents turn. Allowing you to switch modes in your following turn , charge turn after.

And your opponent might oblige and ground it, taking wounds but allowing a charge.

If it does appear in your turn, and suffers automatic wounds , then there's a chance of grounding yourself.
Not a great position to be in , but you can then charge in your next turn.

Decent for only 30 pts more than an axe of khorne.

Although it does have a 5++ against those wounds. The problem is the whole not being able to do anything for 2 turns though as mentioned.

It's only 30 points more than an Axe of Khorne and still has the benefits of at initiative ap2 ID on 6's. 30 points for two Bloodthirsters (that can nuke themselves)? Sign me up.

And just because it's good doesn't mean it's "cheese". The use of that word on these forums is getting excessive.

As I have said multiple times and will continue to say as long as people fail to understand how terrible CSM are, "Wait... Are those toaster-loving heretics getting something better than us! NERF IT NERF IT TO THE GROUND!" for the love of Khorne man we don't even have dirge casters anymore in this new book let us at least have something that is semi-fun.

Rules wise though, is it legal

Indeed.

 lambsandlions wrote:
I wouldn't worry about the axe of ruin. Bloodthirsters have 5 wounds and when summoned this way loose D3 wounds a turn. Turn one it is summoned and will do nothing. Turn two it will start swooping and getting ready for a charge. Turn three it can charge something and then will probably die to its D3 wound lose. Hell, it will kill itself almost a quarter of the time on its second turn. On average it will have one wound after it has started to swoop, meaning you can shoot at it with full bs and just need to do one T6 sv3+ wound. Keep in mind all of this is happening turn 3+ so if your opponent gets really lucky and only rolls ones the bloodthirster still won't be around very long as the game will be ending.

Can the bloodthirster score?
Can it contest?
What if it shows up, swoops and heads over to a far away objective that is either unoccupied or near enemy troops that dont have ObSec. T6 3+/5++ nasties showing up towards the end of the game could be tactically useful. Particularly if you HAVE to kill them to win the game.

Dont have the book, so I could be just imagining things.

And iirc Blood Tithe DOES have access to FNP as well, so your big bad beastie might also gain from FNP iirc to help saturate those D3 wounds a little more.

 Exergy wrote:

 lambsandlions wrote:
I wouldn't worry about the axe of ruin. Bloodthirsters have 5 wounds and when summoned this way loose D3 wounds a turn. Turn one it is summoned and will do nothing. Turn two it will start swooping and getting ready for a charge. Turn three it can charge something and then will probably die to its D3 wound lose. Hell, it will kill itself almost a quarter of the time on its second turn. On average it will have one wound after it has started to swoop, meaning you can shoot at it with full bs and just need to do one T6 sv3+ wound. Keep in mind all of this is happening turn 3+ so if your opponent gets really lucky and only rolls ones the bloodthirster still won't be around very long as the game will be ending.

Can the bloodthirster score?
Can it contest?
What if it shows up, swoops and heads over to a far away objective that is either unoccupied or near enemy troops that dont have ObSec. T6 3+/5++ nasties showing up towards the end of the game could be tactically useful. Particularly if you HAVE to kill them to win the game.

Dont have the book, so I could be just imagining things.

the blood thirsted can not score while it is zooming. So to contest a far off objective it needs to come in, zoom over to the objective and then land. Taking three turns that you may or may not have if you were unable to get 7 blood tokens by turn 2.

I am not saying that the blood thirsted summoning is a horrible tactic and you shouldn't use it, I am just saying I don't think it is super cheesy. Too much can go wrong for it to be reliable, but if you are taking the units anyway, 60 points isn't horrible.

 lambsandlions wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 lambsandlions wrote:
I wouldn't worry about the axe of ruin. Bloodthirsters have 5 wounds and when summoned this way loose D3 wounds a turn. Turn one it is summoned and will do nothing. Turn two it will start swooping and getting ready for a charge. Turn three it can charge something and then will probably die to its D3 wound lose. Hell, it will kill itself almost a quarter of the time on its second turn. On average it will have one wound after it has started to swoop, meaning you can shoot at it with full bs and just need to do one T6 sv3+ wound. Keep in mind all of this is happening turn 3+ so if your opponent gets really lucky and only rolls ones the bloodthirster still won't be around very long as the game will be ending.

Can the bloodthirster score?
Can it contest?
What if it shows up, swoops and heads over to a far away objective that is either unoccupied or near enemy troops that dont have ObSec. T6 3+/5++ nasties showing up towards the end of the game could be tactically useful. Particularly if you HAVE to kill them to win the game.

Dont have the book, so I could be just imagining things.

the blood thirsted can not score while it is zooming. So to contest a far off objective it needs to come in, zoom over to the objective and then land. Taking three turns that you may or may not have if you were unable to get 7 blood tokens by turn 2.

I am not saying that the blood thirsted summoning is a horrible tactic and you shouldn't use it, I am just saying I don't think it is super cheesy. Too much can go wrong for it to be reliable, but if you are taking the units anyway, 60 points isn't horrible.

yes, but on his first turn he can convert from zooming to swooping. He cannot charge, but he could score is my thinking. If you have to shoot him or assault him or if he claims/denys an objective. He has done his task.

Can you convert to swooping from zooming the first turn he comes into play? He arrives via deep strike so you don't get to move and I thought you couldn't change modes. That would give him a whole other turn making him much better.

 lambsandlions wrote:
Can you convert to swooping from zooming the first turn he comes into play? He arrives via deep strike so you don't get to move and I thought you couldn't change modes. That would give him a whole other turn making him much better.

maybe he cannot change, but the point is he cannot ASSAULT until a turn after he changes from zooming to swooping. But once he is in swooping, if he can score, he is valuable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lambsandlions wrote:
Can you convert to swooping from zooming the first turn he comes into play? He arrives via deep strike so you don't get to move and I thought you couldn't change modes. That would give him a whole other turn making him much better.

maybe he cannot change, but the point is he cannot ASSAULT until a turn after he changes from zooming to swooping. But once he is in swooping, if he can score, he is valuable.

 Exergy wrote:

 lambsandlions wrote:
Can you convert to swooping from zooming the first turn he comes into play? He arrives via deep strike so you don't get to move and I thought you couldn't change modes. That would give him a whole other turn making him much better.

maybe he cannot change, but the point is he cannot ASSAULT until a turn after he changes from zooming to swooping. But once he is in swooping, if he can score, he is valuable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lambsandlions wrote:
Can you convert to swooping from zooming the first turn he comes into play? He arrives via deep strike so you don't get to move and I thought you couldn't change modes. That would give him a whole other turn making him much better.

maybe he cannot change, but the point is he cannot ASSAULT until a turn after he changes from zooming to swooping. But once he is in swooping, if he can score, he is valuable.

Oh geez you guys opened the can of worms.

This is still debated and hasn't had a real conclusion other than arrogant individuals claiming the argument is over because they say so.

Long story short- we don't know.

With average saves the bloodthirster will die 3.78 player turns after it is created.

If it is created in your turn, you will likely get one charge out of it and then it will be dead. You do get a blood tithe point out of it.

It's actually a good investment. Nice axe on a lord and when the things get out of hand, you can try and pass that ld10 to create a DP provided you have 7 BT points. But that shouldn't be an issue by the time your lord gets into real trouble. Will work most often than not. It's not like you should do it asap but it's a neat tactical possibility.

It is also great to get out of combat when you get tarpitted. Remember that Daemon prince can start without wings, so becomming an emidiate threat as he's allready on ground and able to charge your next turn. And knowing his durability, he has nice chances of summoning another thirster shortly after. And it's gona likely happen on your opponent's turn which might be benefical cause you can land on your own turn and be able to charge the turn after it!

While the thirster will have to start flying, he can still be a nice distraction cause noone knows if he dies or lives on. And, trust me, not many people want to get charged by a thirster, so he's gona soak some firepower.

If you want to prolong the life of your summoned thirster, you can also go for FNP as together with 5++ it's 5/9 to make a save.

I'd not call this tactix cheeze. It's probably unintended but due to heavy FMC deepstrike limitations and overall meh-ness of thirsters it's not gona give you eldar looks having pulled that off.