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Had a game with a bit of a cheeser who stated what the topic says. We could not come to an agreement so he left his team. They did not agree with him either btw.

The rules appear to support it. The only requirement is that the models be under the blast marker, not that they actually be visible from the "sky".

I don't play this way. I don't know anyone who does. I think this is another stupid rules thing.

I'm in the middle of downloading stuff so I can't look at my BRB yet, but I'm pretty sure it depends on whether the weapon is direct fire or not. A missile launcher can but say a barrage mortar can't. I'll edit later after I look at the rules, but even if it isn't supported in rules, I think that using that as a house rule adds depth to the game.

GW supports house rules.

By the rules, blasts and templates hit everything underneath them.

If you want to add a house rule to only hit the top of the skyshield, or only hit specific floors in ruins, or whatever else, then that's totally fine... but is something that ideally should be discussed before the game starts.

The issue is that Barrage weapons ignore LoS when determining what got hit by the blast coupled with the lack of rules for levels/floors in 7th. It makes no sense, and did not work in 6th.

SJ

Wait, I'm a tad confused, is he saying that it hits all floors or just that it can shoot below a covering? Hitting all floors is not okay but direct fire weapons I can see hitting a floor that isn't the top.


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Also, Kriswall, I visited your website and the star wars codex's are freackin' awesome! thanks for sharing those!

Szeras wrote:
Wait, I'm a tad confused, is he saying that it hits all floors or just that it can shoot below a covering? Hitting all floors is not okay but direct fire weapons I can see hitting a floor that isn't the top.

There are no 'floors' within the rules. Everything under the blast marker is hit by it, even if they're standing on different floors within the terrain.

RAW, EVERYTHING is hit regardless of common sense, ballistics and LoS. So he was right, however with that said, Everyone in my Local area plays that if you cant be seen from either over head or from where the blast hits, you either dont get hit or you get cover.

If I read what you posted originally correct, this guy got into an argument, when nobody agreed with him he got up from the game and left? WAAC players bug me sometimes :-p

See this is where 'common sense' doesn't always work. There are different types of weapons that can fire a 'blast'. A rocket launcher, for instance, can fire under a platform (potentially), but uses a blast template. We can't always assume that every weapon using a Blast is shooting something into the air to land on their heads. A tank doesn't exactly fire up into the air for the shell to land on stuff. Artillery tends to do that.

Not saying the rules aren't wonky, but...yeah. Something that needs to be cleared up by GW.

Crunch: The rules of older editions limited hits from blast weapons to individual "levels" of a ruin. 7th edition does not. 7th edition hits everything under the marker. Everyone I know has made the switch, since they play 7th edition and it's just one of many rules that are different from previous editions. Like, you know, allies. Psychic phase. Vehicle Damage table. Formations that aren't CAD. I dunno, I think there might be a couple more, but I'm not a scholar of 40k, just an enthusiastic amateur.

Fluff: A Blast weapon isn't a 2 dimensional burst, but a 3 dimensional explosion that you're representing with a "2-Dimensional" marker. Bunker buster bombs blast their way several hundred metres into the ground, if I recall. Regular artillery, landing on top of a building is, at the very least, going to "blast" a little bit of destroyed building straight downwards at several hundred feet per second. Or it might have a delayed explosion, allowing it to penetrate something in the way before exploding inside the building / vehicle... kind of like the way Krak Missiles are supposed to work. That guy under that rickety floor might not be visible from the sky, but an ordnance shell coming down isn't going to mind. It'll blast him to pieces anyhow.


So while it's a change from earlier editions, I don't see it as unrealistic, or game breaking. Just don't pile your models on top of each other in a ruin, and you'll be fine. Or if you do, be prepared to take extra damage if the guy scores a hit, while less damage if he scatters... since those 6 guys will no longer be under the small blast. To directly answer the OP's question, yes, the 7th edition rules allow models beneath a Skyshield to be hit by blast weapons that might, fluffily speaking, hit the pad above it first.

He was right to be upset, since the rest of you were cheating, whether you knew it or not. Not very fair to call him a cheeser when someone took a Skyshield Pad, and he intelligently used an attack that would damage the unit beneath.

Oh yes, rules citations! 40k RB, pg 12 "Blast Markers and Templates", 158 "Blast". In both cases, the rules specify that models beneath the marker / template are hit, without limitations. For completeness' sake, the rules for Ruins, such as they are, are on pg 108. You can find rules for more specific ruins in the back of the book, pgs 184 to 187. While absence of evidence merely provides evidence of absence, there are no limitations to the effects of Blast Markers in those rules either. With nothing to limit the hits to individual levels of a ruin... you don't.

I would treat the models beneath the pad as effectively inside a building in this instance. Seems a reasonable house rule

Everything under the blast... let me put an example forth...

A large blast targets the top of an occupied bunker. Due to the size of the building a large blast would cover all of it with a direct hit. While you cant target the people embarked they are still under the template. Are they hit or not?

The area beneath a Skyshield pad isn't enclosed, per the Building / Vehicle rules. If it was, there would be rules to support that stance, but that isn't the case. An enclosed building / vehicle doesn't allow models inside to be hit by blasts, as they have specific rules that deny this. The Skyshield is much closer - rules wise - to a "Ruin" than it is to a "Building".

House rules are fine and dandy, if you want to modify the rulebook that's each individual's prerogative. But it is a modification to the rules in the book, so isn't supported by RAW. The rules presented would give protection to units beneath floors in a Ruin, that simply isn't granted by the rules in the book.

the rules indicate you must place the pin hole of the template on a model. This can't be done if the models are under. Furthermore if you had the unit A to target and unit B under them, then how do you reference who is under the template without having to move the skyshield?

9unit9 wrote:
While you cant target the people embarked they are still under the template.

No, they're not. They're not even on the table.

No, that's wrong. You are required to place the centre over a models base / hull, which is entirely possible even if you cannot see this through the marker.

How do you determine who is under a marker when the marker is opaque? Are you claiming this csnnot be done?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
the rules indicate you must place the pin hole of the template on a model. This can't be done if the models are under.

Sure it can. Having something else in between doesn't change the physical location of either model or marker. The hole is over the model's base regardless of whether it is on top or underneath the skyshield.

Furthermore if you had the unit A to target and unit B under them, then how do you reference who is under the template without having to move the skyshield?

If it's not fairly obvious just from the location of the models, just look from the side.

No. It's over they skyshield.


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You are placing the center on the skyshield.

Yes, according to rules blasts hit all of the floors of a building.

So lets say a FW team is under a pad, and there is a broadside team directly above them on the pad. Say a demolisher cannon is fired at the fire warriors and hits, the broadsides would be hit as well.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
No. It's over they skyshield.


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You are placing the center on the skyshield.

And? My roof is over my loungeroom. It's also over me.

One could, hypothetically, mark the position of the skyshield and then move it out of the way, and then return it once position has been determined. And one can place the hole over a model beneath a skyshield pad. One needs only to squeak the marker between the model and the pad.

As to why the maker doesn't hit embarked infantry on an enclosed Vehicle / Building, that's part of the rules.

At least, I'm pretty sure that's part of the rules. I seem to recall that embarked infantry can't be hit... because they're inside a vehicle / building. Something about being fully encased in steel and such. Unfortunately, I can't find a page reference for that. I'm also pretty sure that there are rules for open-topped vehicles, that allow hits to be assigned to embarked passengers if the vehicle is hit by Blast [d3?] or Large Blast / Template [d6?] though I also can't find those either, so that might be a hold over from another edition. I rarely face OT tranports, so it's not something I have off the top of my head.

Maybe someone has a page reference for that handy? I'm not able to find it at the moment. In any case, that would remove the passengers in a transport being hit, unless open topped issue.

 greatbigtree wrote:
I'm also pretty sure that there are rules for open-topped vehicles, that allow hits to be assigned to embarked passengers if the vehicle is hit by Blast [d3?] or Large Blast / Template [d6?]

It's only for templates. Blasts can't hit passengers, because they're not on the table.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
No. It's over they skyshield.


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You are placing the center on the skyshield.

No, I'm placing it over your model. AND over the sky shield. This is indisputable.

Fair enough, like I said I don't face them often. Do you happen to have a page reference for something along the lines of, "Embarked infantry can't be shot at, nor assaulted while they are embarked." ? I believe it's written in previous versions of the rules, but couldn't find it on a quick pass through the 7th ed rulebook.

For what it's worth, The unit "Count as" being inside the transport. Without rules preventing them from being harmed by shooting, they would be treated as though they are beneath the template. Something I'm 95% sure is prevented by a rule somewhere.

PS: Not terribly interested in a "Counts-as" vs "Is" debate. Just looking for a page reference about embarked infantry can't be targeted by shooting, or hurt by shooting, or assaulted while embarked, etc.

 greatbigtree wrote:
For what it's worth, The unit "Count as" being inside the transport.

For the purposes of measurement, and shooting from the unit, yes. There are no rules for emabrked units that let you ignore the LOS requirement to choose them as a shooting target (and you can't draw LOS to a unit that isn't on the table) or that would allow you to count them as being under a blast marker that is over the vehicle.


I don't believe there is any specific rule that says that you can't target them... it simply isn't possible within the shooting rules.

I maintain that models beneath a Skyshield pad can be hit by blasts that hypothetically target the pad itself. The models are beneath the marker, so while it's a change from previous editions, that's the rules.

I got looking for rules that prohibit embarked models from being damaged by shooting, and haven't been able to find anything. The Blast rules allow models that are out of LOS to be damaged if they're beneath the marker... so I'm going to start another thread to pursue that inquiry.

 greatbigtree wrote:
The Blast rules allow models that are out of LOS to be damaged if they're beneath the marker... .

...which they're not, if they're not even on the table to begin with.

I'll quibble with you about that in an hour or so, once I get a new thread started.

Its a stupid rule, and its broken and maybe GW will figure it out and fix it, either with weapon updates or a specific rule regarding hitting levels such as in the last edition. Until then, decide with your opponent if you will be playing a house rule in this scenario or RAW

Good call Ghaz... Definitely something to discuss before the game starts.