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Even if we had the codex in hand, this is really just a fun mental exorcise.

The idea is, what would be the best way to balance the new Eldar Dex based on what we know.

Assumptions of methodology:
-Simplicity is huge. If it were serious, only simplistic changes would work in such a disperate community. So let's try to keep it simple.
-This thread will try to maintain the spirit of the new release. So the options and the big changes will probably remain.
-This isn't just a platform for me to push my pet ideas (I make enough of those threads!). So things like making Battlefocus Aspect-only are out.

Contentious parts:
-I'd argue around balancing around a demi-company SM list. Not the currently super OP stuff, like IK lances.
-These ideas are broad strokes. That makes perfect balance even harder.
-DAvengers seem right currently, for example.
-I don't see Bladestorm or Battlefocus going anywhere.

My idea:

Guardian Windriders:
-Heavy weapons are 1 per 3
-Scatter Lasers are 15ppm

Wraithguard Scythes:
-[D-2] instead of [D-1]

Wraith Constructs:
-Gain 'Honored Dead' -Any unit with one or more models with Honored Dead treat all Battle Brothers as Allies of Convenience.

WraithKnights:
-350 points

Simple. Concise. Each change has a clear effect.

'Honored Dead' might be a little complex, but I don't think so.

1 per 3
and 15 points for scatter would really solve most problems

I don't actually understand any of what you are saying. Was this meant for anyone else to read? Or are you using the forum post as some sort of personal note pad ^^ if you'd like comments try to write full and proper sentances? Similarly, what is a wraithscythe? (d-scythe?) And what is a wraithnoun? And what is a "Tiggy"?

I am assuming this is a "things we could do to make eldar less op?" thread

You wanna know what would fix the new Eldar? Pushing the game into 8th Edition...

CAD shenanigans should still only allow 1 LOW per army, not detachment.

Strength D is as follows: Roll of 1, nothing. 2-5, D3 wounds/Hull points. 6, D6+1 wounds/hull points, ignores Cover and Armor only.

Stomps as follows: 1, nothing. 2-5, S6 AP4 hits, 6, S9 AP2 hits, does a D3 hull points/wounds.

Codex itself:

Any jetbike can take any weapon, but can only have a max of 3 per unit.

Wraithknight needs to be 350+ points.

Done.

This is a 'Make Eldar less OP' thread. I didn't think it'd be that hard to understand. Perhaps I'll have to clean it up.

These are not rule changes. These are the ways in which I plan to deal with someone playing Eldar.

1) When playing against Eldar, the non-Eldar player should bring 35% more points. Example: Eldar Player brings 2000 point list, Non-Eldar Player brings 2700.
2) Non-Eldar Players are allowed to upgrade all troops in a unit to have the same weapon. Example: Unit of Plague Marines, with 5 plasma guns.
3) Non-Eldar Players ignore all mitigating rules. Example: Plasma guns have no "Gets Hot" when being used against an Eldar Army.
4) All vehicles fielded by Non-Eldar Player get an additional AV value on each side of the vehicle, and Distort weapons only cause glancing hits on 6+.
5) Non-Eldar players get 2d6 extra warp charges, and cannot suffer perils.

If the Eldar player cannot agree to these rules, they can find another opponent. It will make no difference to me. Either that, or play with their old book, with the wave serpent costing 170 base.

just make the elder fix for overpwered units simple, revert it back to it's good but not broken old codex rules.

1 in 3 bikes can take a hvy weapon
Rsnge Str d in any form reverts back to old elder version of distortion
Wraithknights with dual distort cannons no shields 350 points, 375 points for suncannnon and shield same as the imperial knight paladin and yet garagatuan is still better. Wraithknight with str d melee and shield 400 points same cost as knight lancer but still better. Or just make all versions 375 to keep it simple.

Elder will still win any game handily with these nerfed overpowered units.

Bharring wrote:
Even if we had the codex in hand, this is really just a fun mental exorcise.

The idea is, what would be the best way to balance the new Eldar Dex based on what we know.

Assumptions of methodology:
-Simplicity is huge. If it were serious, only simplistic changes would work in such a disperate community. So let's try to keep it simple.
-This thread will try to maintain the spirit of the new release. So the options and the big changes will probably remain.
-This isn't just a platform for me to push my pet ideas (I make enough of those threads!). So things like making Battlefocus Aspect-only are out.

Contentious parts:
-I'd argue around balancing around a demi-company SM list. Not Draigo/Tiggy Grav Stars.
-These ideas are broad strokes. That makes perfect balance even harder.
-DAvengers seem right currently, for example.
-I don't see Bladestorm or Battlefocus going anywhere.

My idea:

Guardian Windriders:
-Heavy weapons are 1 per 3
-Scatter Lasers are 15ppm

WraithScythes:
-[D-2] instead of [D-1]

WraithNouns
-Gain 'Honored Dead' -Any unit with one or more models with Honored Dead treat all Battle Brothers as Allies of Convenience.

WraithKnights:
-350 points

Simple. Concise. Each change has a clear effect.

'Honored Dead' might be a little complex, but I don't think so.

I like the honored dead rule. Makes a lot of sense and stops ally shenanigans with wraithguard.

D scythes are terrifyingly powerful as d weapons even with a -4 on the table. Being s4 ap2 flamers, they were clearly meant for killing smaller enemies with elite armor. Now they toast land raiders and super heavies at the same time. Huge design mistake there. Drop them back to s4 ap2.

Your jetbike rule for only 1 in 3 models can have the upgrade.

Your WK point increase if not a little higher (375).

Str D weapons are all -1 on the chart as only a gargantuan creature can fire them at full str. So only WK gets the full Str D table.

The detachment for auto 6 on run should only be for models with a save of 5 or less. The others can roll a second dice and choose highest.

I fixed some of the terminology that was complained about.

For S, it is an odd change. But with Honored Dead, are:
-Wraithcannon Wraithguard all that scary? 12" range with no Deep strike capability, and it used to have s10. I could see such a nerf to them, but it doesn't seem necessary?
-Dcannon platforms all that dangerous? Sure, its S small blast, but its Artillery with 24" range. A powerful no-go zone, but can't really push, as it can't move then shoot.

As for formations, auto-6 seems bonkers. Perhaps Crusader instead would be a better option.

I'd love to remove Battle focus from the Wraith formation, as I think its a dumb idea (Wraithguard should be Slow and Purposeful, IMO), but is it needed?

The only change needed is the jetbikes need to be 4+ save, and the wraithknight needs to lose "jump"

The wraithknight is getting flack because it is the only specialist in the lower superheavy power level. If you were to remove the twin battle cannon and heavy stubbers from the paladin, he would only cost 305 points. Compare that setup with the melee wraithknight. They are VERY close. Now, dropping the D weapon from the knight lowers the points by 90! So, for a few less points you can have the double battle cannon and two heavy stubbers as opposed to the suncannon.

Comparing the wraithknight to other 6 wound/hull point superheavies isnt going to give you the best comparison because it is designed to destroy those targets. Try comparing I equal points of wraithknights to a war hound titan, or the revenant, even the lynx or shadowsword. Those are also designed to drop superheavies, and it comes down to table size and first turn in all of those matchups. Drop jump, wraithknight's good at that point.

The 4+ for jetbikes means more long range weaponry is forcing them to jink, thereby limiting its firepower. Added bonus is the seercouncil has less of a survivability buff, making taking the jetbikes slightly less of a no brainer.

If you're wondering where my figures for points are comming from, check out my updated V.D.R. in the link in my SIG. It's pretty spot on.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
The only change needed is the jetbikes need to be 4+ save, and the wraithknight needs to lose "jump"

The wraithknight is getting flack because it is the only specialist in the lower superheavy power level. If you were to remove the twin battle cannon and heavy stubbers from the paladin, he would only cost 305 points. Compare that setup with the melee wraithknight. They are VERY close. Now, dropping the D weapon from the knight lowers the points by 90! So, for a few less points you can have the double battle cannon and two heavy stubbers as opposed to the suncannon.

Comparing the wraithknight to other 6 wound/hull point superheavies isnt going to give you the best comparison because it is designed to destroy those targets. Try comparing I equal points of wraithknights to a war hound titan, or the revenant, even the lynx or shadowsword. Those are also designed to drop superheavies, and it comes down to table size and first turn in all of those matchups. Drop jump, wraithknight's good at that point.

The 4+ for jetbikes means more long range weaponry is forcing them to jink, thereby limiting its firepower. Added bonus is the seercouncil has less of a survivability buff, making taking the jetbikes slightly less of a no brainer.

If you're wondering where my figures for points are comming from, check out my updated V.D.R. in the link in my SIG. It's pretty spot on.

Lol you honestly believe this drivel.
Easier comparison take a knight lancer and compare it to the wraothknight str d melee version. Both are nearly the exact same stats role and set up except the lancer is only int 5 on the charge, does not have fnp, does not have a 360 degree invul, and it costs 105 pts more. Instead of claiming a battle cannon costs an additional 90 pts to justify this bs.

Let's just ignore the fact it runs 3d6" and has a 7 shot str7 ap2 gun, the same 5+ invul save in melee and the wraithknight only hits on a 5+. That isn't worth 100 points? Also, a battle cannon isn't worth that. I said specifically that a double battle cannon plus 2 heavy stubbers is worth SEVENTY points, dropping str D to str 10,is what cost 90 (30 points per shot)

The wraithknight is only better survivability if the knights are surrounded, and only against things that are ap 2 or better. It takes almost 20% more missiles to kill an imperial knight, fleshbane and rending have a much greater effect on the wraithknight. And poison still whittles them down eventually.

But go ahead, keep dismissing statistical evidence and logic out of hand because it doesn't agree with you preconceived notions. It took a couple days of analysis to realise I was initially wrong about the new wraithknight, apparently it will take longer with some.

Edit: for clarity.

I've always liked the Jetbikes being a 4+ idea, but with firepower like that (each having an SL), wouldn't they still be stupidly OP? Its cheaper per shot than SL WarWalkers in the last book, which were painfully good!

Also, Craftworlders being a 3+ compared to Harlies and DE seems to be more of a design direction decision, whereas the everyone-gets-heavies seems to be more arbitrary and more of an oversight.

I'd love the CW jetbike to go to a 4+, but I think the proposed limit of 1 Heavy weapon per 3 does a better job of both balancing and maintaining the design intentions.

The harli jetbike has the same cowling, the eldar ones should be 4+. Also, if the eldar jetbikes are 4+ the high yield missile pods, auto cannons, assault cannons, and heavy bolters will force them to jink. If your opponent t may have those type of weapons you will second guess whether or not you will waste the points if they will only get to shoot effectively once (or start dropping like flies)

I actually think the new eldar codex is actually fairly balanced, and not at all OP.

I think all new codexes need to be brought out in a competitive form, and it always makes me sad when this is not the case.

my favourite units were warp spiders, wave serpents and guardians, and of these 2 of them are no longer fully 100 viable

I never really saw the whole wraighknight spam, (the one time I did see 3 in an apoc game they all died in one turn to termagaunt poison) and there are far far worse power gamers (all chaos or imperial knights) in my gaming group (there are 3 eldar players, and none of them takes OP armies) and 3 wave serpents were the most I ever saw on the table..

I think the eldar codex was competitive and now it *is*still* competitive... which is good... but it was always one of the hardest armies to play well.. what I mean is trying to make striking scorpions work for example.. but then it needs to be strong because one thing everyone is forgetting, eldar will not have ANOTHER codex until 2020 at the earliest.

personally I have every single model ever made for eldar, mostly painted and it is a huge huge army to chose from whatever the codex does I will simply work with

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Let's just ignore the fact it runs 3d6" and has a 7 shot str7 ap2 gun, the same 5+ invul save in melee and the wraithknight only hits on a 5+. That isn't worth 100 points? Also, a battle cannon isn't worth that. I said specifically that a double battle cannon plus 2 heavy stubbers is worth SEVENTY points, dropping str D to str 10,is what cost 90 (30 points per shot)

The wraithknight is only better survivability if the knights are surrounded, and only against things that are ap 2 or better. It takes almost 20% more missiles to kill an imperial knight, fleshbane and rending have a much greater effect on the wraithknight. And poison still whittles them down eventually.

But go ahead, keep dismissing statistical evidence and logic out of hand because it doesn't agree with you preconceived notions. It took a couple days of analysis to realise I was initially wrong about the new wraithknight, apparently it will take longer with some.

Edit: for clarity.

If you are going to throw around rare special rules like flesh bane and cry how poison works on 6+ then please feel free to take into account melta, armourbane, haywire, tank hunter, ordinance, and lance into your biased analysis which most armies have a crap ton of these rules unlike fleshbane. Along with the monstrous creatures movement and lack of an extra damage chart (with bonuses from high ap, something else you chose to ignore) that disables vehicles on top of the wraothknight. You act as if the elder wraith knoght is slower it's not when you included the added movement rules given to elder and jump monstrous creatures. Did you fail to notice you can't shoot if you run with this walker? Again more bias by you. I rather have a 3+, 5++ 360 invul with blind and a 5+ fnp on a t8 creature then a 5+ invul for shooting and melee on Av13 front armour and av12 side/rear vehicle I don't know what world you live in that the 5++ is better especially when it can never protect the rear of the lancer. And that supposedly awesome weapon you mention is heavy 6 not 7 str 7 ap2 shots and has an 18in range!!! Feel free to upgrade your wraith knight to have a scatter laser with 36in range str6 ap6 heavy 4 as well and compare the 2. I'm sure you can clearly see how the 95 points more the knoght pays is no where equal to being significantly easier to kill, worse in melee, with a shooting weapon that's has a better ap but half the range and you can still see how underpriced the wraithknight is. The two units are nearly identical except for the fact the wraithknight is always 5 atks @int 5 instead of the knight lancer being 4atks @int4 and int5 on the charge but the wraithknight is flat out cheaper and more survivable. If the wraithknight would of cost 395 points without scatter laser you might have a point but as is, it's clearly 100points underpriced. If you can't see that then your clearly lying to yourself to make yourself feel less cheesy for taking a underpriced and overpowered unit

Anything str 5-6 CANNOT HURT THE LANCER ON THE FRONT! Yes, anti tank weapons hurt the lancer more, because it is a tank. Any weapon that is str 5-8 and ap 3 or less does equal or less damage to the wraithknight. Also, we aren't going to count formation bonuses or the wraithknights jump ability in my part of the discussion because I don't think the jump should be there, and in order to get the formation bonus, you have to add a pile of units, thereby increasing the price. Also, monster hunter still exists, so does shred iirc.

They are different types of units, the meta will have to shift to accommodate both of them in the list planning stage. So people will start bringing missile launchers and lascanjons because they are both effective against the two. That means the spamming of str7 will start to falter making medium- heavy tanks more appealing.

I stand by my statement about the wraithknight, because math and reason are on my side. My "bias" can't be swayed towards the wraithknight, I was fighting the damn thing tooth and nail in the rumor board for the new eldar. This change of mind came from simple math and common sense.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Anything str 5-6 CANNOT HURT THE LANCER ON THE FRONT! Yes, anti tank weapons hurt the lancer more, because it is a tank. Any weapon that is str 5-8 and ap 3 or less does equal or less damage to the wraithknight. Also, we aren't going to count formation bonuses or the wraithknights jump ability in my part of the discussion because I don't think the jump should be there, and in order to get the formation bonus, you have to add a pile of units, thereby increasing the price. Also, monster hunter still exists, so does shred iirc.

They are different types of units, the meta will have to shift to accommodate both of them in the list planning stage. So people will start bringing missile launchers and lascanjons because they are both effective against the two. That means the spamming of str7 will start to falter making medium- heavy tanks more appealing.

I stand by my statement about the wraithknight, because math and reason are on my side. My "bias" can't be swayed towards the wraithknight, I was fighting the damn thing tooth and nail in the rumor board for the new eldar. This change of mind came from simple math and common sense.

Only str 5 with no special rules that increase armour penetration or auto penetrate can't hurt the knight. Str6 on side and rear work perfectly fine on this model especially when the 5+ shield never works on rear armour. Ap2-3 weapons are not extremely common and general those that are ap2-3 have high enough str to hurt the lancer as much as the knight. Even if I pretend like you that all weapons are ap2-ap3 guess what the wraithknight is still better and will never be equal or less to a knight lancer because it has a 5++ AND 5+ FNP. Are you conviently forgetting fnp in your bias it stacks. Hello? The only way to ignore it is with str d. Guess what eldar are the only army with range str d. You will always have a better save with a wraith knight. Since when is being a jump monstrous creature a formation rule? Also the extra formation movement is conviently the only way to take this model in a war host. Unless of course you plan on only using a cad. And that's moronic to do when you get free rules from these formations.

So your big argument is to ignore rules (jump and fnp mainly) because you don't think it should be there? Sorry to inform you but that comment is no where near the realm of math or reason. And then you have he gall to complain the other unit is equal because you just want to ignore rules? Are you serious? The wraith knight is clearly 100points under costed, but sure if you ignore half the wraithknights rules I'm sure it will look equal. But when you play the model as written it's just as fast or faster in most cases then the lancer, has better melee (more atks, better int), better shooting range but less range ap, and still significantly better defensively. This is actually based on real math and actual comparison. Not making up what I care to include or ignore in my analysis.

If it has a 5++, it doesn't have ranged D.

Terribly undercosted as is, but it does have to make choices.

Bharring wrote:
If it has a 5++, it doesn't have ranged D.

Terribly undercosted as is, but it does have to make choices.

I'm replying to someone who believes the wraithknight is costed fine.
He was making up point values on battle cannons to prove his point.
So I told him compare the knight lancer and melee str d wraith knight so he could have an accurate comparison instead of making crap up.
Niether version has range str d which is not part of the discussion but both are melee str d and have identical roles and near identical stats.

He is now choosing to ignore wraithknight rules in order to claim the lancer is better and thus the 100point difference is justifiable.
The point is I agree with you it's extremely undercosted.

Also, the lancer has a 4++ on a side versus ranged fire. Let's do the math, wraithknight charges in H.O.W. he gets a 50/50 shot at doing a hull point. We'll give it to him. Then attacks 5 times, say 2 hit, then we do an average of 2 hull points per hit, let's say he fails both until saves. He now strikes back, hitting twice, doing two wounds a piece, the wraithknight stops 2. Next turn, the wraithknight drops him, he explodes does maybe two wounds again from the explosion. So worst case scenario, where the dice favor the wraithknight, the wraithknight wins while still losing 2/3 of its hull points.

Now, shoe on the other foot. Imperial knight shoots wraithknight. 4 hits one wound 50/50 chance the wound is saved. If it is, then hammer of wrath, maybe one wound, again, we'll say it saved. Now striking at the same init. Wraithknight hits once, maybe twice, imperial knight hits 2 maybe three. Imperial knight takes 2-3 hull points, imperial knight takes the 3-6 on average. The imperial knight has a better chance of killing the wraithknight in this scenario. If the gun wounded, the wraithknight's at init 1 due to concussive. Meaning he might never get to swing.

Worst case scenario, imperial knight dies, wraithknight is badly wounded. Best case scenario, wraithknight dies, imperial Knight is unharmed. Worth 100 points.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Also, the lancer has a 4++ on a side versus ranged fire. Let's do the math, wraithknight charges in H.O.W. he gets a 50/50 shot at doing a hull point. We'll give it to him. Then attacks 5 times, say 2 hit, then we do an average of 2 hull points per hit, let's say he fails both until saves. He now strikes back, hitting twice, doing two wounds a piece, the wraithknight stops 2. Next turn, the wraithknight drops him, he explodes does maybe two wounds again from the explosion. So worst case scenario, where the dice favor the wraithknight, the wraithknight wins while still losing 2/3 of its hull points.

Now, shoe on the other foot. Imperial knight shoots wraithknight. 4 hits one wound 50/50 chance the wound is saved. If it is, then hammer of wrath, maybe one wound, again, we'll say it saved. Now striking at the same init. Wraithknight hits once, maybe twice, imperial knight hits 2 maybe three. Imperial knight takes 2-3 hull points, imperial knight takes the 3-6 on average. The imperial knight has a better chance of killing the wraithknight in this scenario. If the gun wounded, the wraithknight's at init 1 due to concussive. Meaning he might never get to swing.

Worst case scenario, imperial knight dies, wraithknight is badly wounded. Best case scenario, wraithknight dies, imperial Knight is unharmed. Worth 100 points.

There is absolutely no 4++ side invul. It is the basic 1 sided 5++ invul shield, that can never be used for rear armour, but helps in melee that is all!!!
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/L/lancer.pdf
You have no idea what your talking about.
I also love your made up numbers in your favor. For instance lancer charges and gets 5 atks for charging(lancer has 4 base atks), the wraithknight has base 5 atks (but somehow when he charged in your first example he doesn't get the extra atk for charging and only hits 2x out of 6) both are ws4, however in your analysis the lancer hits 2-3 and the wraithknight hits 1-2 for 2-3 hull points.....Wtf???
Do you just make this gak up as you go along or are you trying to be serious?

Edit: I'd also like to add monstrous hunter does NOT work on gargantuan creatures. You are wrong there too. But you know what does work on gargantuan creatures...blind and every time your shield makes a save every enemy within 6in makes an int test or gets his bs and ws set to 1.
Now redo your made up scenario and you will clearly see if the wraith knight charges the knight is dead, 6 str d atks striking first (likely with rerolls to hit from formation rules or psychic powers) will either str d the knight with a 6 or do 6 hull points of damage with 6xd3 worth of hull points. However if the lancer is somehow allowed the to get within 18in and fire his gun outside of 6in blinding radius from shield and able to make a random charge range. (Pretty much garaunteed to fail to cause a wound on a 5++ and 5+ fnp t8 unit with a str 7 gun as will the scatter laser from the wraithknight with overwatch). He then will likely hit 3 of 6 with his str d int5 atks (1 of 3 saved with 5++, no fnp for str d) for 2xd3 wounds each and take 3 of 6 str d int 5 atks (1 of 3 saved with 5++) for d3 wounds each. Let's say the law of averages happens and neither dies, turn 2 the wraithknight goes first and lancer dies. Apoc explosion and with average scatter the wraithknight misses d str center of apoc blast and wraith knight survives with 5++ and fnp saves. Not saying a lancer can't win average rolls only happen on the Internet. But the point is wraithknight is better in every scenario and still cheaper cost. And we are comparing two models with the exact same role and same setup that are 100 points apart. How does that remotely make any sense to you?

I'd like to add to my original points, my solution is to inform all Eldar players that I will be bringing an additional 30%-40% points worth of stuff so that the game will be somewhat even. Either that, or I can treat all my plasma guns as D weapons with no mitigating rules and all my bolters can be upgraded to assault cannons for 10 points.

I could have sworn it said that it is an ion shield, in addition to the other benefits. Now, go look at the imperial Knight and tell me what save a normal imperial knight gets versus shooting.

My bad on the number of attacks, but the same number of hits would occure due to the lancer special rules ( that you so happily showed me) that say that gargantuan monstrous creatures have a -1 to hit the lancer. 4+ with a -1 equals 5+. Monster hunter works on gargantuan creatures because (according to the BRB) THEY COUNT AS MONSTROUS CREATURES WITH THE ADDITION OF THESE SPECIAL RULES.

In short, you have tried to prove me wrong, while insulting my knowledge, with things that are provably untrue. Thank you for playing.

Again the basic 2 knoghts have nothing to do with this comparison because you clearly showed you arbitrarily throw out random prices to prove your point. The basic knight is a 4++ on one side vs shooting only and also in no way comparable to a 3+, 5++ 360 vs everything shield with blind and a 5+ fnp.
My bad ur correct on monster hunter I was looking at the usr and had a brainfart. However your numbers are still completely wrong. With 6 atks even on a 5+ to hit that's 1/3 so 2 hit not 1. Which means an average of 4 hull points. Furthermore you completely ignore fnp for your shooting and HOW. And you also ignore blind from your shield making the lancer ws/bs1. Anytime that shield goes off the lancer makes an int test. In that case your shooting with a 6+ and melee is also at a 5+.

Again the wraithknight is 100 points cheaper. Even in your own screwed up scenarios the wraithknight goes first and wins easily with 1/3 health. If the lancer goes first they both hit at the same time and in the best case scenario they both die. Again the wraithknight is 100 points cheaper!!!!

Do you not comprehend the wraithknight is undercosted at best it should be the same cost as the knight lancer and it's arguably still better then that unit. Which it is comparable too.

Seriously you're delusional I already proved you wrong. The shields are 5++, the wraithknight is a jump monstrous creature, and it has fnp all of these things are things you either flat out ignored or got wrong. These are proven to be true just like how he lancer is 100points more expensive and is still worse at the wraith knight in melee, and worse defensively. These are clear as day examples of side by side stats. Everyone but you says it's significantly undercosted.

Vehicles are immune to blind, and my numbers didn't calculate feel no pain, because I had the wraithknight pass every save he was allowed to make besides the strD.

The knight lancer rules state that its shield is EXACTLY like a normal ion shield but also confers the following benefits.

Also, I had the wraithknight hit twice in the first encounter, despite the odds being even between 1-2, and it did do 4 HP.

The imperial knight stock can take down light- medium vehicles, medium to heavy infantry, and is able to cover more distance to claim objectives. Against strD in melee they have the same survivability and like i said, the wraithknight should not be able to jump. As a side note, I could have sworn the wraithknight only had one more attack than a base imperial knight, and they definitely only have 3 attacks base. I think you may be wrong there as well. Anyone have the codex in front of them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yeah, versus side armor, with his shield facing that direction, the 5++,5+++ is almost exactly the same damage reduction as a 4++ against anything str6+ and ap3 or better. Against front armor, the knight is better, and against str5 the knight is better both sides. Stop pretending the wraithknight isn't actually outclassed by the lancer, because it is.

because you are once again wrong and I can't put up pictures of the unit entry here is the profile.
http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Wraithknight
It's 5 atks not 4

The wraithknight is clearly better then the lancer in not only its stats but defensively and in melee and it's still 100points cheaper.
Again just because you feel the wrothknight should not be able to jump does not make it so. This makes it move much faster then any knight.

You have no idea what your talking about. You honestly expect peopl to take you serious when you just said the wraithknight is used to claim objective? As if someone is going to run and not shoot to put a non objective secured superheavy lord of war on an objective? Do you not realize elder have cheap bike troops? Seriously your just making crap up as you go along aren't you?

Just because you use absurd scenarios does not make he lancer better.
Vs rear armour the wraithknight is always better.
Vs str6+ ap3 or better weapons the wraith night is always better then a 4++ on side armour 12. I don't know what numbers your making up again.
Vs anything with an ap worse then 3 the wraithknight is better
Vs any barrage weapon hits the wraithknight is better, this is a side effect of the 1 sided shield rule
Vs vs any melee str d the lancer is equal to the wraithknight except for the fact the lancer also gets to roll on the vehicle pen table!!!!
Elder have the only range str d outside of super expensive forgeworld lord of wars so it's a useless point to compare.
The only time the lancer is better is vs any shots of str5 or less and str6 to the front. That is all.

An Eldar Exarch should be at least a 20 point upgrade. I'm fine with them having a good stats but for 10 points? For the same cost as a veteran sergeant upgrade Exarchs get a point of WS, BS, I, and now an extra wound (and a free Exarch power)! As both a Space Marine and Eldar player I find this error to be the most offensive.

gungo wrote:
because you are once again wrong and I can't put up pictures of the unit entry here is the profile.
http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Wraithknight
It's 5 atks not 4

The wraithknight is clearly better then the lancer in not only its stats but defensively and in melee and it's still 100points cheaper.
Again just because you feel the wrothknight should not be able to jump does not make it so. This makes it move much faster then any knight.

You have no idea what your talking about. You honestly expect peopl to take you serious when you just said the wraithknight is used to claim objective? As if someone is going to run and not shoot to put a non objective secured superheavy lord of war on an objective? Do you not realize elder have cheap bike troops? Seriously your just making crap up as you go along aren't you?

Just because you use absurd scenarios does not make he lancer better.
Vs rear armour the wraithknight is always better.
Vs str6+ ap3 or better weapons the wraith night is always better then a 4++ on side armour 12. I don't know what numbers your making up again.
Vs anything with an ap worse then 3 the wraithknight is better
Vs any blast weapons the wraithknight is better, this is a side effect of the 1 sided shield rule
Vs vs any melee str d the lancer is equal to the wraithknight except for the fact the lancer also gets to roll on the vehicle pen table!!!!

Ok, statistically a 5+ rerollable is indeed equivalent to a 4+ invul save. I agreed that with jump it is undercosted, stop pretending I didn't. The blast marker still found as being from the side it was fired from unless you used barage. This is a direct comparison between a wraithknight without jump (which is how it should be) and a lancer. I don't care what jetbikes can do, just what these two units do.
Matter how many str5 shots it takes to kill a wraithknight, it is still IMPOSSIBLE to kill ANY imperial knight with them. I have given you STATISTICAL EVIDENCE that the wraithknight isn't as over costed as you think (barring the jump) and all you have to argue with is saying I am "making up numbers"

Also, how many extra hull points does an imperial knight lose when hit with instant death? How many gargoyle does it take to kill one? How many snipers? Those 6s required to wound still count as ap2 remember?

Anyway, the exarch point total is pretty ridiculous. I'm not sure if I'd add points to them (at least 5-10), or allow my groups other 1 wound upgraded characters to gain an extra wound... I feel they may be going this route.


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Oh, BTW, you do know you don't get to use feel no pain against strD weapons, don't you?