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Just something funny I picked up while reading the new Eldar codex. Maugan Ra now has the Whirlwind of Death special rule:

Maugan Ra can fire the Maugatar twice in each Shooting phase, either at the same target or at two different targets

Now, unless I'm missing something, that would grant permission to fire in the opponent's Shooting phase as well (twice even!). The new Runes of the Farseer use the same wording (each Psychic phase) and that certainly is meant to work in the opponent's psychic phase as it contains Deny the Witch rolls, which are only made in the opponent's Psychic phase.

So, did I miss anything?

Disclaimer: I have never played Maugan Ra, and I doubt I'd play him this way if I ever would.

Just a poorly worded rule.

I play Maugan Ra and would NEVER interpret the rule that way. I think it is implied that he can fire twice in each of his shooting phase.

It was worded to be clear on the fact that this power is not a one-shot thing.

Considering that permission to shoot is only given to the non-active player in specific circumstances, and nothing about this rule gives you a permission to shoot at any point other than when the rules allow it, then you would not follow it. If something DID allow you to shoot his weapon during an opponent's shooting phase, however, then in theory you could then bring this rule up!

I disagree, that rule gives him explicit permission that he can fire ,not only once, but twice in each shooting phase.

RAW he can. RAI, we can only guess that it is meant to be a better version of the Dark Reaper exarch's ability.


Which would make sense for the Pheonix Lord of the dark reapers.

I guess the opponent can choose him in his shooting phase and kill some of your Eldar with him. I guess Altansar really did go rogue.

RaW this is impossible as the enemy has to choose his units to shoot with. So whilst Maugan Ra can shoot in his opponent's turn he is never eligible to be selected to have a shot.

There's a couple instances of poor wording like this that I've noticed. For instance the Terrify psychic power is a malediction that causes the target to take a morale check at -1 LD at the end of the psychic phase. The problem is that maledictions last until the beginning of the caster's next turn, and in that time there are two psychic phases. This would mean that Terrify causes two morale checks, as "the end of the psychic phase" happens twice while the power is in effect. It's fairly obvious this is not how the power is intended to work.

So RAW, it can be interpreted that Maugan Ra has permission to fire in the opponent's shooting phase, but RAI is very strongly against it, and as OP stated, people are not likely to play it that way.

Nothing new here.

Monstrous Creatures can fire up to two of their weapons each Shooting phase –

would that give him double overwatch?

Another thing to add to the list of "proof no one plays totally RAW." Good catch!

 soupfly wrote:
would that give him double overwatch?

No, as that happens during the Assault phase, not the shooting phase.

 Yarium wrote:

 soupfly wrote:
would that give him double overwatch?

No, as that happens during the Assault phase, not the shooting phase.

So no rolling to hit in overwatch? Are you claiming a marine can fire his bolter, bolt pistol AND throw a grenade during overwatch?

 FlingitNow wrote:
So no rolling to hit in overwatch? Are you claiming a marine can fire his bolter, bolt pistol AND throw a grenade during overwatch?

I'm honestly confused at this question, and curious to see what logical pattern developed it. I think it was pretty explicit that I used shorthand to say;

"As Maugan Ra is allowed to fire twice during the shooting phase, and that Overwatch occurs during the Assault phase, that Maugan Ra will not gain the benefit of his special rule for Overwatch, as that special rule specifically states that he gets to shoot twice only during the shooting phase."

The reason being that Overwatch is treated just as a "normal shooting attack".

This enables things that say "can fire up to two of their weapons each Shooting phase"

To apply outside of the shooting phase.
If you disagree and these rules do not apply, all models can fire every weapon they own (Bolgun+Pistol+grenade example)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you need the various threads on the subject:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/639760.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/639936.page

The specific RaW:

MORE THAN ONE WEAPON wrote:Unless otherwise states, if a model has more than one shooting weapon, he must choose which one to shoot - he cannot fire both in the same Shooting phase.

 BlackTalos wrote:
The reason being that Overwatch is treated just as a "normal shooting attack".

This enables things that say "can fire up to two of their weapons each Shooting phase"

To apply outside of the shooting phase.
If you disagree and these rules do not apply, all models can fire every weapon they own (Bolgun+Pistol+grenade example)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you need the various threads on the subject:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/639760.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/639936.page

The specific RaW:

MORE THAN ONE WEAPON wrote:Unless otherwise states, if a model has more than one shooting weapon, he must choose which one to shoot - he cannot fire both in the same Shooting phase.

Thanks! I understand why he said that now ;-). I honestly didn't understand the reasoning.

Still, I think this case is different. He's not firing each of his weapons in the shooting phase, he's making two separates attacks against either the same or different targets. He may fire twice, implying that he's following all the rules for shooting in each instance separately (which is what allows him to pick a second unit). In theory, this means he doesn't have to resolve the second attack immediately like other units would have to, and could be re-selected to fire again later during the shooting phase, but I'm not about to make that argument yet.

Anyways, back on topic, there's two good reasons that he can't fire Overwatch twice. First of all, this would be firing Overwatch twice, which is disallowed by the Overwatch rules. Since each of Maugan Ra's shooting attacks is a separate attack, after the first Overwatch he'd be disallowed from firing a second Overwatch. This is different from the "fire two weapons each Shooting phase" rules, as that is a single attack comprising two weapons firing. Secondly, the wording of his own rule says that he may fire twice during the shooting phase, again implying a re-selection of the unit, not a single selection resolved simultaneously (and hence why it can be fired at two different targets). A "normal shooting attack" from Maugan Ra is still a single set of shots, it's just that during the shooting phase he gets to make a second round of a "normal shooting attack".

To give a better verbal idea of where the distinction is from two weapons shooting at once, imagine this rule could be applied to either Maugan Ra or to a Crisis Suit with two different weapons; "Whenever this models makes a shooting attack, it gains +1 Attack until end of turn." In the case of Maugan Ra, since he's making two separate shooting attacks, he'd gain +2 Attacks, but a Crisis Suits firing two weapons is only making a single shooting attack, and so would only gain +1 Attack.

Played him twice now, man is he a beast. He always was my favorite Phoenix Lord, now he is auto include for me. I love his shrieker ammo.

 Yarium wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
The reason being that Overwatch is treated just as a "normal shooting attack".

This enables things that say "can fire up to two of their weapons each Shooting phase"

To apply outside of the shooting phase.
If you disagree and these rules do not apply, all models can fire every weapon they own (Bolgun+Pistol+grenade example)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you need the various threads on the subject:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/639760.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/639936.page

The specific RaW:

MORE THAN ONE WEAPON wrote:Unless otherwise states, if a model has more than one shooting weapon, he must choose which one to shoot - he cannot fire both in the same Shooting phase.

Thanks! I understand why he said that now ;-). I honestly didn't understand the reasoning.

Still, I think this case is different. He's not firing each of his weapons in the shooting phase, he's making two separates attacks against either the same or different targets. He may fire twice, implying that he's following all the rules for shooting in each instance separately (which is what allows him to pick a second unit). In theory, this means he doesn't have to resolve the second attack immediately like other units would have to, and could be re-selected to fire again later during the shooting phase, but I'm not about to make that argument yet.

Anyways, back on topic, there's two good reasons that he can't fire Overwatch twice. First of all, this would be firing Overwatch twice, which is disallowed by the Overwatch rules. Since each of Maugan Ra's shooting attacks is a separate attack, after the first Overwatch he'd be disallowed from firing a second Overwatch. This is different from the "fire two weapons each Shooting phase" rules, as that is a single attack comprising two weapons firing. Secondly, the wording of his own rule says that he may fire twice during the shooting phase, again implying a re-selection of the unit, not a single selection resolved simultaneously (and hence why it can be fired at two different targets). A "normal shooting attack" from Maugan Ra is still a single set of shots, it's just that during the shooting phase he gets to make a second round of a "normal shooting attack".

To give a better verbal idea of where the distinction is from two weapons shooting at once, imagine this rule could be applied to either Maugan Ra or to a Crisis Suit with two different weapons; "Whenever this models makes a shooting attack, it gains +1 Attack until end of turn." In the case of Maugan Ra, since he's making two separate shooting attacks, he'd gain +2 Attacks, but a Crisis Suits firing two weapons is only making a single shooting attack, and so would only gain +1 Attack.

I think you have a good point about him shooting in Overwatch... twice, compared to him shooting twice... in Overwatch. I am not familiar with his ruling (2 separate shooting phases then?), but i was going by what was provided above:

"Maugan Ra can fire the Maugatar twice in each Shooting phase"
To me, the above is worded almost identically to:
"Monstrous Creatures can fire up to two of their weapons each Shooting phase"

As per the threads i linked, we already know that the second is "accepted" to apply during Overwatch. As such i would conclude that Maugan Ra can also use his weapon in Overwatch twice.
You seem to think: Maugan Ra can fire twice, shooting phase 1 and shooting phase 2. As such he is not allowed by the rules to fire Overwatch 1 AND Overwatch 2.

But i read the above quote as "in each Shooting phase" = only 1 shooting phase. So he can also "fire the Maugatar twice" for 1 overwatch.

Having the option to split-fire some of the shots does not make a difference to this.

I see your point then. An FAQ in this regard would definitely clear that up. These are both good arguments, and the wording is pretty unclear.

I'm not saying that there's two shooting phases, I'm saying there's two separate attacks. An Overwatch is a single attack, so just 1 Overwatch. You're saying that its a single attack with (effectively) split fire, hence 2 Maugatars shooting at the charging unit.

As far as I look at it "fire twice" means "attack twice" which means that there's 2 attacks, which means that on Overwatch you get 1 attack, and then can't get the next.

 Yarium wrote:
I see your point then. An FAQ in this regard would definitely clear that up. These are both good arguments, and the wording is pretty unclear.

I'm not saying that there's two shooting phases, I'm saying there's two separate attacks. An Overwatch is a single attack, so just 1 Overwatch. You're saying that its a single attack with (effectively) split fire, hence 2 Maugatars shooting at the charging unit.

As far as I look at it "fire twice" means "attack twice" which means that there's 2 attacks, which means that on Overwatch you get 1 attack, and then can't get the next.

Of course, but how is "attack twice" with 1 weapon any different than "attack 4x" with different weapons?

By that i mean that you have 1 Shooting phase, where you fire this list:
-Flamer
-Meltagun
-Boltgun
-Plasma pistol

Which is essentially "four attacks". Do you not fire all of those in an Overwatch? Are you restricted to "1 Attack"? Which weapon?

To me, the list above is no different than these:
List 1: - Lascannon
- Plasma Cannon

List 2: - Maugatar
- Maugatar

Now, what if list 1 was fired by 1 Monstrous creature? Rule: "Monstrous Creatures can fire up to two of their weapons each Shooting phase"
And how are those "2 attacks" worded any differently than: "Maugan Ra can fire the Maugatar twice in each Shooting phase"

Or even this list, also on a Monstrous creature:
List 3: - TL Devourer
- TL Devourer

They are all 1 model "firing twice", even if some are from separate weapons, or the same weapon. The split-fire argument also being separate.

Except each of those other cases are different;

1. Squad firing multiple weapons;
Each model is firing a different weapon. One fires a Flamer, another a Lascannon, another a Boltgun, and the Squad Leader fires the Plasma Pistol. Each is 1 attack, thereby not violating the "overwatch once" rule, as each model has only fired overwatch once.

2. Monstrous Creature firing 2 weapons;
The Monstrous creature is making 1 attack, and when it attacks it may fire two weapons. Again, this does not violate "overwatch once".

3. Maugan Ra may shoot twice with the Maugatar;
This model is making 2 attacks, shooting once, and then shooting again at the same or different target. This is clearly 2 attacks, which would violate the "overwatch once" rule.


Notice that, unlike other weapons, Maugan Ra doesn't say to double the number of shots, and doesn't say that he can split his attacks between one or two targets. Rather, it's a separate firing sequence, a separate attack, and thus is a second attack. It is firing, two times.

Let me compare this situation to another. Let's say you're using Maugan Ra and can't decide on shooting a Land Speeder or some Scouts. When you start shooting with him, do you;

a) Choose your targets, either targeting both the Speeder and the Scouts to be shot at one time each, or targeting one of the two and declaring that you're shooting at it twice?

or

b) Choose a target, shoot at it, see how it resolves, then choose another target, choosing either the same or a different target?


If you even CAN do b), then it's a second round of shooting, a second "attack", and thus Maugan Ra is not able to shoot twice on Overwatch.

I would say that by RaW, only a) is allowed, as Maugan Ra can only perform "1 Shooting Sequence" in the same way that he can perform "1 Overwatch".

During his Shooting Sequence (or Overwatch), he is able to select 2 different targets (then prohibited by the Overwatch rules), and fire twice during that Shooting Sequence.

If you went for b), do you then think you could select Maugan Ra, fire his gun once, then select the rest of your army, shoot with them, and then come back to Maugan Ra and fire a "second shooting Sequence"? It sounds to me that this is the separation your are doing when you say " 2 attacks".

And i disagree: a Model (or Unit) will only ever make 1 Shooting Attack, even if that 1 shooting attack consists of 1 model, 2 guns, 10 models, 5 guns or 1 model firing twice.
RaW: "Once you have completed steps 1 to 7 for each unit in your army that you wish to make a shooting attack, carry on to the Assault phase."
"A" shooting attack. Not 2. Even Maugan Ra is not allowed more than 1 "Attack"...

That would seem to be at the core of the disagreement then. I believe B) to be the correct choice, and that Maugan Ra's specific rule allows him to be selected twice during the shooting phase. I sort-of hinted to that being my thinking in this post:

Yarium wrote:Still, I think this case is different. He's not firing each of his weapons in the shooting phase, he's making two separates attacks against either the same or different targets. He may fire twice, implying that he's following all the rules for shooting in each instance separately (which is what allows him to pick a second unit). In theory, this means he doesn't have to resolve the second attack immediately like other units would have to, and could be re-selected to fire again later during the shooting phase, but I'm not about to make that argument yet.

Any idea how to resolve this argument then? I'm unsure, as it feels that if we disagree at this part we're just euchred on the conversation. You would be able to state over and over "well, the rules only give you permission to select once, and the codex doesn't say select again, it says to fire twice, presumably as part of the same shooting attack". I would just say over and over again "well, the codex says fire twice, which means being able to be selected twice to shoot, so I think you're wrong." If you have any ideas how to resolve this, I'm all ears.

EDIT: I really hope you find something. I feel like we're actually making progress here!

Ideas on how to resolve the disagreement? None.

I can however try to explain my point of view further in hope that you might agree to it.

The way i see Maugan Ra implementing himself in the current rules is like this:
You have a set of "unbreakable" RaW if you want. Things you simply cannot do unless another Rule specifies directly to it.
- Any Unit can only ever fire 1 "shooting sequence" (which the rulebook sometimes calls "Shooting Attack")
- Maugan Ra can "fire the Maugatar twice in each Shooting phase"

So how does this work in the sequence?
Basically i see it as Maugan Ra following the Sequence once (he only ever performs 1 "shooting Attack"), but looping an extended part, in the same way that firing multiple weapons would loop the sequence:
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot.
2. Choose a Target.
3. Select a Weapon.
4. Roll To Hit.
5. Roll To Wound.
6. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties.
7. Select Another Weapon. (...) select another weapon and repeat steps 3 to 6.

The underlined is how you loop Monstrous creatures, or multiple weapons.
Which would look a bit like this:


Maugan Ra:


As you can see, he has only fired 1 "Shooting attack", but he has (possibly) selected 2 targets, while only going through point 1) once, and thus abides by this rule:

"1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn."

Whereas, at a guess, you seem to be saying he can do this:


Which is indeed "2 Shooting Attacks", but in my opinion, not allowed by the Rules.

That's an excellent way of breaking it down, and shows the repetitious nature of resolving a shooting attack. I like how you show it as Maugan Ra being able to back up just a little bit on the second round of shooting.

Unfortunately, there is a problem that comes up here:

 BlackTalos wrote:

Maugan Ra:
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot.
2. Choose a Target.
3. Select a Weapon.
4. Roll To Hit.
5. Roll To Wound.
6. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties.

2. Choose a Target.
3. Select a Weapon.
4. Roll To Hit.
5. Roll To Wound.
6. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties.
7. Select Another Weapon.

This would actually need to be:

Maugan Ra:
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot.
2. Choose a Target.
3. Select all Weapons with the same name.
4. Roll To Hit.
5. Roll To Wound.
6. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties.

2. Choose a Target.
3. Select a Weapon with a different name than any previously fired.
4. Roll To Hit.
5. Roll To Wound.
6. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties.
7. Select Another Weapon.


When you go to shoot with a squad, you can't reselect the same weapon during the firing sequence. This is why you can't resolve Bolters one bolter at a time, but rather roll for all the weapons that are firing at the same time. Now, this doesn't dismiss your "choose two targets when you go to shoot, and they can be the same target" - I can't find a way around that argument other than "you're wrong", which is not a helpful answer. However, saying that Maugan Ra can back up to the "choose a target" point of the shooting attack would, by the rules, force him to shoot a different weapon. The Maugatar can be fired twice during a shooting phase, yes, but it doesn't give permission to ignore being selected again during the attack since all Maugatars have already fired during this shooting attack. You would indeed need to go back to Step #1 to get that second round of firing after already seeing the results.

Like I said though, if it was instead choose both targets at Step #2, then when you select the weapon to shoot with, it would have fired twice, and thus all Maugatars would have fired. However, I think rules are written that he is nominated to shoot a second time, so long as he shoots with the Maugatar during this second nomination and he fired with it during the first Nomination.

Wait, I might have something...

Does Maugan Ra have Battlefocus, and is he either Relentless or is the Maugatar an Assault weapon?

If he does... if he was nominated a second time, he could run and shoot a SECOND TIME, which would still fulfill the requirement of shooting the Maugatar during the second nomination even after having shot it during the first nomination. This would convince me that, even though the RAW rules may be unclear (it could still be argued that he could do this, I'd just have a major issue with it), the RAI would be that it's a single shooting attack, choosing two targets when you shoot (not shoot, resolve, then shoot again), and he would therefore fire overwatch twice.

I don't think i have the problem you are seeing. When i come to step 3. (Again), i am normally forbidden to select the same weapon. But then RaW is quite clear:"Maugan Ra can fire the Maugatar twice in each Shooting phase."
I read that as an allowance to repeat step 3 with this weapon (and this weapon only).

Alternatively, you would also be correct by RaW if you did a form of "simultaneous" step 2. where you pick both targets, do step 3. once, and then "copy / duplicate" steps 4.-5.-6. on both targets simultaneously.... But that seems extremely complex and not the way i'd see it work....

I just checked, and Maugan Ra does indeed have Battle Focus and the Maugatar is an assault weapon, which for me makes it clear that taking steps #1-#6 a second time is not what happens (as it would allow him to run twice). While there may be a RAW argument there, it is clearly not the RAI, which to me says that you'd be correct in that he's firing twice as part of the same nomination, and that you couldn't go back to nominate him again.

As such, then YES, I think we've reached a solid conclusion that he gets twice the number of Overwatch shots as stated in the Maugatar's profile!

Hurray! We have consensus on a difficult issue!

Unfortunately, we now have the more difficult conundrum... is he selecting both targets at the same time, or shooting, then selecting a new target again? Want to continue this discussion here or make a new topic for it, since it kind of is a new topic?

I'd say it's still part of the topic "Maugan Ra firing", as the discussion of overwatch was also an off-topic from the OP.

My answer is still above though:
-I don't think a "simultaneous" resolution is acceptable here, too complicated and has no precedents.
-A Unit that fires the same weapon twice would simply repeat steps 2-6 with the same weapon.

I have also found precedence of a sort for this:
The Imperial Guard STORMLORD SUPER-HEAVY TANK.

"All Power to Weapons" Special Rule:
"If the Stormlord does not move, it may fire its Vulcan mega-bolter twice in the following Shooting phase (at the same target or at different ones)."

Even though it is a vehicle, and not a model, it still falls under the category "Unit firing the same weapon twice at different targets"

Similarly, Tau Splitfire could create the same issue of "double weapon selection"

Using Super-Heavies as an example is good. Their weapons each individually choose a target and resolve individually. I'll need to check the rules when I get home to make sure that if they have two weapons of the same name, that they could resolve individually (and not be choose two different targets at the same time, resolving them as part of the same firing sequence). That super-heavy isn't precedent - it's just the same wording, but how a super-heavy fires multiple weapons of the same name at multiple targets likely holds the key to solving this.

Each shooting phase would include your opponents shooting phase as well. Probably not intended - but it is a permission.