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Just want to see what every one thinks about putting these restrictions in play. I would basically be house ruling myself in games where I used said units. For sportsmanship...

I answered no because the fact remains that even with that the codex is still so broken that I wouldn't have fun and if I am not having fun then I wont play.

You needed to add another option "I would have played against them either way".

"yes" and "no" is not enough options to gauge the response of the community.

I voted no because Id rather play against the wraith cannons at STR D because that's what in the codex.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
You needed to add another option "I would have played against them either way".

"yes" and "no" is not enough options to gauge the response of the community.

This. I play against units as they're written unless I'm in a tournament that has things FAQd. I enjoy a challenge.

I did not think about people playing them either way, that is a good Idea. Can I edit polls? And most people I have talked to around my area have said they straight up will not play me if I take distort weapons as written in the codex. Or if I spammed jet bikes. Which kind of bummed me out. I have a lot of wraith stuff. No bikes though. But basically people are telling me they won't play against 85% of my army. And I don't really have another place to play. So just trying to get reasonable opinion from a large crowd. Thanks guys.

Nope. I would play if my opponent was using the full set of rules in his codex. If that means St D and scatter lasers for everyone, so be it. If he really wants to hamstring himself, he could just not take those units.

For funsies? Sure. Whatever you want.

For tourney that faq'd it like that? Also sure.

You shouldnt have to purposely handicap your army. I was playing against dark eldar at 1850 points and he told me that even with an additional 50% points he didn't think he could take on what I brought.

S10 AP1 is way more powerful than current Str D. Definitely NO.

SJ

I voted yes, but because I would play against them either way anyways. You also asked if I would, not if I would instead of.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
S10 AP1 is way more powerful than current Str D. Definitely NO.

SJ

erm... how?

This poll needs a third option for, "I will play against Eldar regardless."

This poll needs a 4th option, "I will kick the game designer in the nuts for making such a broken army codex".

I'll play against anyone's army. It's no worse the any of the other dumb stuff or OP stuff. I mean at least Eldar can't teleport out of combat, and get back up over and over and over again. Or having to play against people bringing allied armies in, or unbound, or buildings like the ADL.

All the new dex' has done for me is sent tempting whispers to go back to the Eldar and build a Saim Hann army I've always wanted but never did.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
S10 AP1 is way more powerful than current Str D. Definitely NO.

SJ

Wat?
There is no case in which this is true. Between doing multiple wounds and HP's per hit, potentially ignoring any and all saves on a 6, and ignoring T and AV completely, D is *way* more powerful than S10

 Vaktathi wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
S10 AP1 is way more powerful than current Str D. Definitely NO.

SJ

Wat?
There is no case in which this is true. Between doing multiple wounds and HP's per hit, potentially ignoring any and all saves on a 6, and ignoring T and AV completely, D is *way* more powerful than S10

I'm assuming you haven't read that not all Str D counts as S10 for Instant Death? Or that it is possible for D to not be AP1 or 2? D-Scythes currently wound everything on a 3+, while S10 wounds everything up to T8 on a 2+. Str D AP2 rolls lower on the pen table than S10 AP1. The only real buff Str D has over S10 is that it deals with big models better. Both deal with small models the same, while S10 out preforms the more abusable Str D (ie, D-Scythes).

SJ

D-scyther used to be s4 iirc.

So, s: D albeit with -1 to damaga table is a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE buff over s4.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
S10 AP1 is way more powerful than current Str D. Definitely NO.

SJ

Wat?
There is no case in which this is true. Between doing multiple wounds and HP's per hit, potentially ignoring any and all saves on a 6, and ignoring T and AV completely, D is *way* more powerful than S10

I'm assuming you haven't read that not all Str D counts as S10 for Instant Death? Or that it is possible for D to not be AP1 or 2? D-Scythes currently wound everything on a 3+, while S10 wounds everything up to T8 on a 2+. Str D AP2 rolls lower on the pen table than S10 AP1. The only real buff Str D has over S10 is that it deals with big models better. Both deal with small models the same, while S10 out preforms the more abusable Str D (ie, D-Scythes).

SJ

When you losel 1d3 HP per hit (already being pen), there's no need for the table.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Str D AP2 rolls lower on the pen table than S10 AP1. The only real buff Str D has over S10 is that it deals with big models better. Both deal with small models the same, while S10 out preforms the more abusable Str D (ie, D-Scythes).

SJ

StrD AP2 might roll lower on the penetration table, but if it rolls a 6 on the Destroyer table the end result is much the same (D6+6 hull points kills most typical vehicles outright and even has a good chance of wiping some of the larger ones).

If you score a hit on a 3HP AV13 vehicle, Str10 Ap1 has only a 17% chance of killing it outright, the StrD AP2 has a 47% chance. Even if it fails to kill it outright the StrD weapon is still quite likely to do multiple HP of damage and is more likely to do damage on the vehicle damage table (immobilise, weapon destroy) because even though it only gets +1 on the vehicle damage table, it pens on a 2+ instead of the Str10 which needs a 4+ to pen.

And D is counted as S10 for instant death on all but the D-scythes. The D-cannon, Wraithcannon and Heavy Wraithcannon all have standard D rules which counts as S10 for instant death.

The only time you could argue S10 AP1 is better than Str D is for the D-scythes because they have their special rule for -1 on the D table and Str4 for instant death..... but then D-scythes were only S4 AP2 in the previous rules anyway, so it's still a big buff compared to 6th edition.

I will play against Eldar anyway, no matter what codex or rules he uses...

But he doesnt have to expect a good mood while he unleashes hell from all his guns and completely rapes me.

I will however NOT play with my Orks against him. Ill only use my Necrons since they are the only one that have a decent shot against the Eldar... even though they ignore all my reanimations with their overpowered D weapons

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
S10 AP1 is way more powerful than current Str D. Definitely NO.

SJ

really? Im sure in some cases it is, but most of the time I would rather be facing S10 AP1, so I get cover and invul saves and only take 1 wound if T6+ and only lose 1hull point with a 33% chance of explode.

I also voted no, because I only play against opponents who use the FULL set of the CURRENT rules.

I am getting a little sick of all this "Eldar are so OP that something has to be done" non-sense. People will bring the nastiest possible combos in touneys, regardless of comp, so you will have to deal with it

The Polls and Tactics threads that should get attention should be how to discuss fair list building with your opponent in friendly games. I always bring alternate lists for pick-up games. If my opponent doesn't want to face Belakor, I swap him out for something else. If my opponent doesn't like the WK, I don't bring it.

I have done this for years, and I always get people who want/ask to play against me, even if I table them from time to time. Giving your opponent the choice is key.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
S10 AP1 is way more powerful than current Str D. Definitely NO.

SJ

Wat?
There is no case in which this is true. Between doing multiple wounds and HP's per hit, potentially ignoring any and all saves on a 6, and ignoring T and AV completely, D is *way* more powerful than S10

I'm assuming you haven't read that not all Str D counts as S10 for Instant Death?

Only the "scythe" weapons, which still wound/penetrate on a 3+ regardless of AV or T, and do D3 wounds on each, regardless of ID/EW

Or that it is possible for D to not be AP1 or 2?

Possible? potentially, but there's no instance of any D weapon not being AP2 that I can think of. All the Eldar Distort D-weapons are AP2.

D-Scythes currently wound everything on a 3+, while S10 wounds everything up to T8 on a 2+.

D-scythes yes, but are also doing D3 wounds on each wound, not just 1. Wraithcannon still act as perfectly normal D weapons.

Str D AP2 rolls lower on the pen table than S10 AP1.

Irrelevant when you're doing D3 hull points per hit (and auto-kills on a 6).

With S10 AP1 versus say, AV14, you need an average of 13.5 BS4 shots to inflict a single Explodes result, or 9 to kill a 3 HP vehicle through HP's alone.
With a D weapon, sure you need a whole lot more to inflict a single Explodes result, 27 shots, but only ~3.5 to average enough to kill that AV14 vehicle through HP's, or only an average of 3 with a D-scythe (since it can't fail to hit even though it gets a -1 on the D chart).

The damage table is the lesser threat to the vehicle either way, the HP stripping is always the bigger threat, and the D weapons are roughly thrice as effective at that.

The only real buff Str D has over S10 is that it deals with big models better.

It deals with anything that has an AV value or more than one wound better, and anything with good invul/cover saves.

I have played against an all-scatbikes and wraith army already, and will undoubtedly do so again.

 Galef wrote:
I also voted no, because I only play against opponents who use the FULL set of the CURRENT rules.

I am getting a little sick of all this "Eldar are so OP that something has to be done" non-sense. People will bring the nastiest possible combos in touneys, regardless of comp, so you will have to deal with it

The Polls and Tactics threads that should get attention should be how to discuss fair list building with your opponent in friendly games. I always bring alternate lists for pick-up games. If my opponent doesn't want to face Belakor, I swap him out for something else. If my opponent doesn't like the WK, I don't bring it.

I have done this for years, and I always get people who want/ask to play against me, even if I table them from time to time. Giving your opponent the choice is key.

I posted this in the general thread, because I wasnt asking for tactics or list critique... thought it was the best place to post the question.

I wasnt starting an eldar is OP something has to be done thread.... I play Eldar, I love them. Do I think this codex went over the top? yes. Id love to play with the rules as they where written though.

This wasnt about tournaments either... The group I play with flat out told me that they would not play if I brought ranged D weapons or scatterbike spam to normal games. I thought it was a crappy sentiment. So i was brainstorming ways to tone them down so I could play some games. and no i dont have another option in terms of gaming groups. I have a large collection of Iyanden and only a small portion of the other types of eldar, so it would be hard for me both geographically and monetarily to change what I do or bring alternate lists.

I then came to dakka to try and get a reasonable opinion. Which turned into, A)people would play either way B)arguing that Str10 is better than Str D or C) people not reading the thread at all and spouting nonsense about how they table people from time to time.

but uh cool thanks for the feedback i guess.