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I was recently accused of wanting to play a broken Codex just because I was reading the rules in the books literally, rather than trying to speculate as to what GW meant instead of what they wrote. Presented as "A typical Eldar player, wanting to make their already OP broken codex even more powerful." Below is my response, and the reason why people should relax a little bit about the D-weapon scare.

As for "Eldar players" wanting to break their codex, I am more of a Dark Eldar player, actually. I started buying Eldar only after GW introduced the allies matrix and such. Either way, I would have been happy to keep my old Eldar codex, and I only own 1 wave serpent and no wraithknights. Without using serpent spam or Wraithknights, I've lost only 1 game with my Eldar. Ultimately, the new Eldar codex didn't really change a lot. Wave serpents got nerfed, wraighknights became gargantuan and LoW, windriders got more weapon options, they added a decurion style formation, warlocks can no longer be spread around to different units based on what powers they roll, and we lost the mantle of the laughing god artifact(That I theory-crafted, but never actually got around to using). The D-weapon change is a buff, no doubt, but I don't think it's nearly as big of a deal as people are making it out to be.

Many tournaments already limit LoWs and Gargantuan creatures, so for them, the wraithknight issue is no issue at all. For those that don't, It's clear that GW is pushing towards a more epic game style using these large models, and so I'm sure we'll be seeing several such models and changes for things like Imperial knights as well. As for the other D-weapons, wraithguard are expensive, slow, and not obsec. They're also not great in CC. So, for standard wraithguard, they can be tied up with any cheap multiple model unit in CC, then they can't use their 12" range D-weapons. Imperial guardsmen could tie up a squad of 5 wraithguards for most of the game. Now, D-scythe wraithguards are a slightly different story with their "wall of death" rule. It basically requires a second cheap squad to tie them up for the rest of the game, but you can still easily do it. The final unit that gets D-weapons, the D-cannon, has 24" range. Not great, but not terrible, either. If it moves, it can't fire it's weapon. You can possibly just avoid their threat zone and, like wraithguard, they're highly vulnerable to being tied up in CC. If you get in CC with them, they're just Guardians with 5+ armor, no CC ability, and no D-weapons.

EDIT TO ADD:

I think charlie from Elite 40k made a good comparison post regarding the D-weapon changes.

Charlie from Elite 40k wrote: Wraiths and D
Many tears have been cried over the change to Distort weapons, upgrading them to the 'dreaded D' that so many players still irrationally fear. But how much of a difference is there really between S10 and D?

Let's start with the much-maligned Wraithknight and its pair of Heavy Wraithcannon. These were S10 AP2 with Instant Death on a 6. In other words, they were already:

Wounding everything on 2+
Always one-shotting T5 and lower
One-shotting T6+ on a 6 (except Gargantuans and Eternal Warriors)
Taking a HP automatically from AV10 and AV11
Taking a HP on a 2+ from the very common AV12
Taking a HP on a 3+ or 4+ against the rarer AV13 and AV14

With the change to D, the Heavy Wraithcannon is now:

Still wounding everything on a 2+
Still always one-shotting T5 and lower
Still one-shotting T6+ on a 6 (now including most Gargantuans and Eternal Warriors)
Taking D3 HP on a 2+ regardless of AV
One-shotting vehicles on a 6 (except the most expensive Super Heavies)
Ignoring cover and invulnerable saves on a 6

Yes, things changed. But the sky is not falling. They were buffed in several ways, and nerfed in several others. Did they come out slightly stronger than before? I don't think so. I think, with the normal tournament rules regarding LoWs and Gargantuan creatures that have been in place since before their codex released, they are likely a weaker codex now with the loss of the spamable twin-linked wave serpents. That said, I still think they're a good, powerful codex, which is something I think should be able to be said for any codex that's released. All codices should have a "Wow" factor, where when you read it for the first time, at several points you should say to yourself, "Wow, that's awesome."

If whatever faction you play didn't give you that feeling, or you feel like you can't compete with other codices, that is GW's failing in writing your codex, not a failure of everyone else's. Like DE. They got proper F'ed in the A. Their codex is so mediocre at everything that it makes them a chore to use. All the interesting fluff and special characters that gave them flair in last edition whittled down to a cast of underperforming characters that are a shadow of their former selves, as if DE were overpowered and needed less options. They didn't. I feel like DE would have been better served by not getting an update at all. Their most recent codex release seemed like an underpowered rehash of their old codex, that served no purpose other than to suck the fun out of the faction and give them an excuse to release the covens supplement and related models. It was a cash grab that hurt the faction, and the game as a whole. Don't blame eldar players because GW makes choices like these, stranding their loyal fanbases with crappy codices for multiple years. Perhaps the latest codices of necrons and eldar are signs of the future direction of GW's creation philosophy for core factions, where every faction will be awesome. One may hope.

Did I just read a L2P message?

One of the problem with D-weapons is that they are good weapons against SH and GC, it makes regular Vehicles and MC practically wasted points. Particulary, one that ignores cover by being a Template.

Granted, some tournaments have banned Ranged D so this issue is mitigated somewhat, but it's still an unpleasant aspect to deal with in casual games (if they can be called that).

I'm not sure what the point of your thread is. To be honest, you really come off as the typical eldar player so far removed from the rest of the codices ("Come on guys, its not THAT bad") and that does nothing to offer any perception of an exploitable weakness in this new codex that anyone would garner as tactically helpful.

You make it clear that your original Eldar codex (You know the most winning tournament codex) was able to beat all but 1 opponent, and that that codex has just gotten extremely buffed (No rational player can possibly deny this). To say that not a lot has changed is disingenuous and does nothing to help your argument. In short, I think Naw hit it on the head.

 Iechine wrote:
I'm not sure what the point of your thread is. To be honest, you really come off as the typical eldar player so far removed from the rest of the codices ("Come on guys, its not THAT bad") and that does nothing to offer any perception of an exploitable weakness in this new codex that anyone would garner as tactically helpful.

You make it clear that your original Eldar codex (You know the most winning tournament codex) was able to beat all but 1 opponent, and that that codex has just gotten extremely buffed (No rational player can possibly deny this). To say that not a lot has changed is disingenuous and does nothing to help your argument. In short, I think Naw hit it on the head.

Well put.

I have yet to see a list that can tackle:
Farseer
Warlock
3x3 jet bikes
1 Viper
3 Wraith Knights with wraithcannons
1 Wraith Knight with suncannon
1 Wraith knight with Glaive
(45 points left for gear)

1850 points, battle forged with a single detachment.

The craftworlds requires outside rules to limit them.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I have yet to see a list that can tackle:
Farseer
Warlock
3x3 jet bikes
1 Viper
3 Wraith Knights with wraithcannons
1 Wraith Knight with suncannon
1 Wraith knight with Glaive
(45 points left for gear)

1850 points, battle forged with a single detachment.

The craftworlds requires outside rules to limit them.

Are titans allowed? Hahaha.
Maybe Tyranids with a Barbed Hierodule could do it. Idk man

IMHO the only ever broken codex is the 2011 Grey Knights. So redonkulous OP for cheap. The only saving grace was the actual cost of the models prevented many from playing the most serious cheese lists.

Also, if you're willing to accept the ridicule of playing Eldar, you should be rewarded with something OP to offset the Real World shame all Eldar players must feel. Also, most of the whining comes from people with other OP armies.

Orks ain't complaining about the New Eldar, same as the Old Eldar. We had to sit through all of 5th and 6th with a 4th Ed codex and suffer huge nerfs when it came out. We played on.

I hope everyone runs out and buys the new wraithguard models just like they did with the Grey Knight Dreadknights and the Chaos Hell Turkeys. That's what keeps the game going while I'm still using 20th century models. I'm not sorry my Trukks are half the size of a Rhino and carry 6 MegaNobz. 100% GW legal model.

Ally Orks if you're worried. We have plenty of answers for Eldar, and Necrons, and Marines, and Chaos.

Just to make this an actual post regarding OP, are the range D weapons only 24"? Pfft, no problem. Lootas are 48". IMHO opinion no Codex choice should ever be banned as long as Unbound is allowed. Orks Codex was the first 7th edition codex and was specifically written to be used as Unbound.

There is balance between codices when there is no balance within codicies. Waoh that was totally zen!

The wraithguards D weapons are 12" range. The ranged D on the artillery guns are 24". On the wraithknight, they're 36", and those are the longest range in the codex.

I don't disagree, the wraithknights with 36" ranged D are very buff. But many tournaments will limit gargantuan creatures and/or LoWs. I'm not seperated from the masses insofar as recognizing the power level of other codices. I'm primarily a Dark Eldar player. If you know anything about the new DE codex, you'll understand that we basically got screwed as bad as any other codex in the new era of 7th Edition releases. I still contest that, short of taking that rediculous wraithknight list that I agree is OP, if someone built a list that focussed on D-weapons from wraithguard and Support weapons, I think I could easily neutralize them using only my standard MSU Dark Eldar army list. Even if they took a single wraithknight on top of the support weapons and wraithguard, I think I'd stand a pretty decent chance.

That's all I'm saying, is I don't think it's OP. Is it powerful? SURE! But that's how ALL the codices should be. We should read about an army's capabilities and be all like, "Ohh, that's awesome!" Every codex should have an "Ohh, that's awesome!" feeling to it. This one does, and admittedly may go overboard with the wraithknight. I personally feel that the biggest problem with the codex is that the wraithknight is severely undercosted for what he does now. If they made the wraithknight ~400-450 points and limited it to 1, I think the entire codex would be fine as is.

So how many powerfist-equivalent is a WraithKnight with ranged D weapons? 10? 10.5 powerfists?

295pts.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I have yet to see a list that can tackle:
Farseer
Warlock
3x3 jet bikes
1 Viper
3 Wraith Knights with wraithcannons
1 Wraith Knight with suncannon
1 Wraith knight with Glaive
(45 points left for gear)

1850 points, battle forged with a single detachment.

The craftworlds requires outside rules to limit them.

Your basic White Scars grav biker list would gak all over this.

On a side note, all the tears from this release might solve our water problem here in California!

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I have yet to see a list that can tackle:
Farseer
Warlock
3x3 jet bikes
1 Viper
3 Wraith Knights with wraithcannons
1 Wraith Knight with suncannon
1 Wraith knight with Glaive
(45 points left for gear)

1850 points, battle forged with a single detachment.

The craftworlds requires outside rules to limit them.

Play to the objectives. Even if you get really lucky with stomps and your Wraithknights can remove a squad a turn, if you're presented with more targets than you can physically remove you're left with nine models to actually grab objectives. Play this against any kind of summon-spam and you're not going to get much done (I'm a big proponent of Kasyr Lutien Typhons for helping summon-spam against Eldar normally since it removes jetbikes and makes summoning much better but probably not in this case, too many Wraithcannons)

 PipeAlley wrote:
IMHO the only ever broken codex is the 2011 Grey Knights. So redonkulous OP for cheap. The only saving grace was the actual cost of the models prevented many from playing the most serious cheese lists.

Also, if you're willing to accept the ridicule of playing Eldar, you should be rewarded with something OP to offset the Real World shame all Eldar players must feel. Also, most of the whining comes from people with other OP armies.

Orks ain't complaining about the New Eldar, same as the Old Eldar. We had to sit through all of 5th and 6th with a 4th Ed codex and suffer huge nerfs when it came out. We played on.

I hope everyone runs out and buys the new wraithguard models just like they did with the Grey Knight Dreadknights and the Chaos Hell Turkeys. That's what keeps the game going while I'm still using 20th century models. I'm not sorry my Trukks are half the size of a Rhino and carry 6 MegaNobz. 100% GW legal model.

Ally Orks if you're worried. We have plenty of answers for Eldar, and Necrons, and Marines, and Chaos.

Just to make this an actual post regarding OP, are the range D weapons only 24"? Pfft, no problem. Lootas are 48". IMHO opinion no Codex choice should ever be banned as long as Unbound is allowed. Orks Codex was the first 7th edition codex and was specifically written to be used as Unbound.

There is balance between codices when there is no balance within codicies. Waoh that was totally zen!

The 24" range is on the Artillery unit. The D that the Wraithknight packs is 36" and he is a Jump MC so 48" threat range. Also, Lootas blow against the Wraithknight; hitting on 5s, wounding on 5s, 3+ save, 5+ FNP. 2 squads of 10 averages 40 shots, 13 hits, 4 wounds, 1 failed save, and then only goes through the FNP 2/3 of the time. Two squads would be lucky to kill one WK on average by the end of the game....and thats if all the lootas live for 5-7 turns.

 PipeAlley wrote:
So how many powerfist-equivalent is a WraithKnight with ranged D weapons? 10? 10.5 powerfists?

Not sure what the question is. A Wraithknight with D-cannons is taking two D-strength shots per turn, at 3+ to hit and 2+ to do scary stuff (6 to do really scary stuff) each individual attack is roughly d3 powerfist attacks against most non-vehicle targets, so if you're shooting at Orks (say) each Wraithcannon is worth less than a Terminator in melee. If you're shooting another Wraithknight it's worth closer to six powerfist attacks (three Terminators), if you're shooting a Land Raider it's worth around twelve (six Terminators).

So your 300pt Wraithknight has the offensive potential of 480pts of hilariously overpriced Space Marines.

It is much tougher, though, and much faster.

If you're asking how many powerfists it'd take to beat a wraithcannon Wraithknight in melee? If they're Hammernators it kills half of a Terminator at I5, then at I1 they take two and a half wounds off charging or one and a half not charging, then the Wraithknight removes about 0.7 Terminators with stomp attacks, and then they go back to it.

I'd call that 7-8 Hammernators to win a fight with a D-cannon Wraithknight.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 PipeAlley wrote:
So how many powerfist-equivalent is a WraithKnight with ranged D weapons? 10? 10.5 powerfists?

Not sure what the question is. A Wraithknight with D-cannons is taking two D-strength shots per turn, at 3+ to hit and 2+ to do scary stuff (6 to do really scary stuff) each individual attack is roughly d3 powerfist attacks against most non-vehicle targets, so if you're shooting at Orks (say) each Wraithcannon is worth less than a Terminator in melee. If you're shooting another Wraithknight it's worth closer to six powerfist attacks (three Terminators), if you're shooting a Land Raider it's worth around twelve (six Terminators).

So your 300pt Wraithknight has the offensive potential of 480pts of hilariously overpriced Space Marines.

It is much tougher, though, and much faster.

If you're asking how many powerfists it'd take to beat a wraithcannon Wraithknight in melee? If they're Hammernators it kills half of a Terminator at I5, then at I1 they take two and a half wounds off charging or one and a half not charging, then the Wraithknight removes about 0.7 Terminators with stomp attacks, and then they go back to it.

I'd call that 7-8 Hammernators to win a fight with a D-cannon Wraithknight.

He was talking about point cost. Like the actual point cost of the powerfist.

 extremefreak17 wrote:
He was talking about point cost. Like the actual point cost of the powerfist.

Oh. It's a meaningless point of comparison because the 'price of a powerfist' doesn't actually matter to the situation; the actual price of a weapon has to take into account the model you're equipping with it (a 20pt Grey Knight is clearly not paying 15pts for a power weapon, for instance) and a powerfist on a Strength 10 Gargantuan Creature would be a meaningless upgrade since it'd do nothing other than give the model Unwieldy.

If you're asking how many powerfist-equipped MODELS you could buy for the price of a Wraithknight it's about 7-8, I think (so just enough to beat it in melee if they can get into melee without dying).

(Another fun fact: if you can get Terrify on a Wraithknight and Be'lakor is your Warlord it only takes two castings of Psychic Shriek to kill it, on average)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Now, D-scythe wraithguards are a slightly different story with their "wall of death" rule. It basically requires a second cheap squad to tie them up for the rest of the game, but you can still easily do it.

They make it completely untenable to play most ground vehicles or expensive squads, since a three hundred point unit (five D-scythe Wraithguard and a WWP Archon) will land next to the biggest threat in your army turn two and remove it from play if it isn't a superheavy with at least nine hull points.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:
He was talking about point cost. Like the actual point cost of the powerfist.

Oh. It's a meaningless point of comparison because the 'price of a powerfist' doesn't actually matter to the situation; the actual price of a weapon has to take into account the model you're equipping with it (a 20pt Grey Knight is clearly not paying 15pts for a power weapon, for instance) and a powerfist on a Strength 10 Gargantuan Creature would be a meaningless upgrade since it'd do nothing other than give the model Unwieldy.

If you're asking how many powerfist-equipped MODELS you could buy for the price of a Wraithknight it's about 7-8, I think (so just enough to beat it in melee if they can get into melee without dying).

(Another fun fact: if you can get Terrify on a Wraithknight and Be'lakor is your Warlord it only takes two castings of Psychic Shriek to kill it, on average)

The reason he was making the comparison is becasue you are not supposed to post specifc point values (or other rules) online. Something to do with GW wanting people to have to BUY the rules to play the game. So, you can get around that by saying something like, "A wraithknight costs just shy of 3 Thunderfire Cannons," because you are not actually listing the point values, even though everyone knows what you mean. Personally, I dont give a feth about all that.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I have yet to see a list that can tackle:
Farseer
Warlock
3x3 jet bikes
1 Viper
3 Wraith Knights with wraithcannons
1 Wraith Knight with suncannon
1 Wraith knight with Glaive
(45 points left for gear)

1850 points, battle forged with a single detachment.

The craftworlds requires outside rules to limit them.

I feel moderately confident centstar can beat that depending on half decent terrain. I'm actually going to be testing against a list like that this week just for giggles. Even if I know I'll almost never see something that bad.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:
He was talking about point cost. Like the actual point cost of the powerfist.

Oh. It's a meaningless point of comparison because the 'price of a powerfist' doesn't actually matter to the situation; the actual price of a weapon has to take into account the model you're equipping with it (a 20pt Grey Knight is clearly not paying 15pts for a power weapon, for instance) and a powerfist on a Strength 10 Gargantuan Creature would be a meaningless upgrade since it'd do nothing other than give the model Unwieldy.

If you're asking how many powerfist-equipped MODELS you could buy for the price of a Wraithknight it's about 7-8, I think (so just enough to beat it in melee if they can get into melee without dying).

(Another fun fact: if you can get Terrify on a Wraithknight and Be'lakor is your Warlord it only takes two castings of Psychic Shriek to kill it, on average)

The reason he was making the comparison is becasue you are not supposed to post specifc point values (or other rules) online. Something to do with GW wanting people to have to BUY the rules to play the game. So, you can get around that by saying something like, "A wraithknight costs just shy of 3 Thunderfire Cannons," because you are not actually listing the point values, even though everyone knows what you mean. Personally, I dont give a feth about all that.

Yeh - it's in pretty much every eldar thread anyway.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 PipeAlley wrote:
IMHO the only ever broken codex is the 2011 Grey Knights. So redonkulous OP for cheap. The only saving grace was the actual cost of the models prevented many from playing the most serious cheese lists.

Also, if you're willing to accept the ridicule of playing Eldar, you should be rewarded with something OP to offset the Real World shame all Eldar players must feel. Also, most of the whining comes from people with other OP armies.

Orks ain't complaining about the New Eldar, same as the Old Eldar. We had to sit through all of 5th and 6th with a 4th Ed codex and suffer huge nerfs when it came out. We played on.

I hope everyone runs out and buys the new wraithguard models just like they did with the Grey Knight Dreadknights and the Chaos Hell Turkeys. That's what keeps the game going while I'm still using 20th century models. I'm not sorry my Trukks are half the size of a Rhino and carry 6 MegaNobz. 100% GW legal model.

Ally Orks if you're worried. We have plenty of answers for Eldar, and Necrons, and Marines, and Chaos.

Just to make this an actual post regarding OP, are the range D weapons only 24"? Pfft, no problem. Lootas are 48". IMHO opinion no Codex choice should ever be banned as long as Unbound is allowed. Orks Codex was the first 7th edition codex and was specifically written to be used as Unbound.

There is balance between codices when there is no balance within codicies. Waoh that was totally zen!

The 24" range is on the Artillery unit. The D that the Wraithknight packs is 36" and he is a Jump MC so 48" threat range. Also, Lootas blow against the Wraithknight; hitting on 5s, wounding on 5s, 3+ save, 5+ FNP. 2 squads of 10 averages 40 shots, 13 hits, 4 wounds, 1 failed save, and then only goes through the FNP 2/3 of the time. Two squads would be lucky to kill one WK on average by the end of the game....and thats if all the lootas live for 5-7 turns.

Ah, so almost 10 DeffKoptas then. Hmmm, 10 single DeffKoptas, 10 Shots hit 5/9th, wound 1/2 (yikes!), save 1/3, FNP 1/3, so 1.2345679 wounds per turn against the WraithKnight. How many d shots a turn does it get? Deffkopta would Jink, assuming BS4 for the knight would means about 5/18 dead DeffKoptas per turn per shot.

the wraithknights heavy wraith cannon is not blast, and is 1 shot per.

So against deffkoptas it would average 2 rolls to hit at BS 4 or 1.32 hits.

as a D weapon it rolls on a chart. On 1 no effect, 2-5 the model suffers d3 wounds. 6 the model is pretty much dead and does not get cover[no jink save]

1.32 hits results in
.21 results of 1
.87 results of 2-5
.21 results of 6

on a 2-5 it does d3 wounds and you get cover which results in average 2 wounds, with cover[jink] you have a 33% chance to save. I wouldn't bother jinking.

End result without jink you have 1.1 casualties, average of 1 deffkopta dies a turn.

With jink you have .78 casualties, which will average still 1 most of the time.

10 deffkoptas will kill a Wk if you stay out of assault, and it has no other guns just the two heavy wraith cannons, but it will probably take 6 turns....would be hard to stay out of assault that whole time.

Unrelated to that, a greentide would hurt WKs. The heavy wraithcannons are wasted as they are gibbing 6 point boys most of the time, and if you catch a Wk in assault- when you cover the whole table it will happen, praise WAAAGHing every turn. 10 PK nobs and a PK warboss will put a lot of hurt out before stomps happen. Assuming BBP for +1 ws and fearless 10 nobs will have 40 attacks on the charge hitting on 3s, so 27 hits. With FC you are looking at S9 hits for wounding on 3+. Thats 18 wounds, it will FnP save 6 leaving 12, if it has the 5++ it will save 4 more still leaving 8. If not charging 10 nobs will hit 18 times, doing 9 wounds on average, after Fnp 6 wounds, average 4 if the model has shield also. That's without the warboss. Of course this assumes you get 10 nobs into assault range

You only need 8 nobs, or 6+ warboss to make it into assault to gib the WK before stomps. This unit of course would cost much more than a Wk, and against 4 Wks The stomps would hurt but being as you can probably get all the nobs and warboss into assault range with the boys[boys aren't doing much...] if there are 4 Wks in assault with the tide you are looking at killing 2 Wks a turn of assault if all the nobs and Warboss are fighting. Even if the tide gets charged by a Wk it will most likely crush it in 1 turn due to pile in moves. Considering if the orks charge the knights, and will likely wipe out 2 WKs before stomps, you are only looking at 2d3 stomps, average 4- each one will hit on average 5 models, so 20 rolls on the stomp table. 3 of those will instagib something, 3 will do nothing, and the remaining 14 will cause a str6 hit, which against boys will be 12 wounds before FnP, 8 after FnP. Total of 11 boys lost, most likely stomps will not kill nobs outright due to multi wounds. Those are pretty acceptable for a greentide. Especially since next round will most likely see 1-2 more Wks dead

Well I feel like my Imperial knights just got nerfed hard by the eldar. Also craftworld eldar were never really that weak to begin with if you ask me. Hopefully they made shining spears better. I always kind of liked the look of the model.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

That's all I'm saying, is I don't think it's OP. Is it powerful? SURE! But that's how ALL the codices should be. We should read about an army's capabilities and be all like, "Ohh, that's awesome!" Every codex should have an "Ohh, that's awesome!" feeling to it. This one does, and admittedly may go overboard with the wraithknight. I personally feel that the biggest problem with the codex is that the wraithknight is severely undercosted for what he does now. If they made the wraithknight ~400-450 points and limited it to 1, I think the entire codex would be fine as is.

It's true. Every codex should have something that awesome. Every Space Marine should have S/T5. Every army should be well balanced towards each other and everyone in the world should be equal.
But none of those is the case. Currently, the Eldar have something that make people go crazy because when compared to the rest of the armies it is ridiculously powerful for the cheap cost in points.

The fact that other armies should have something as awesome doesn't justify any of this since the truth is that most armies don't.

I'm primarily a Dark Eldar player. If you know anything about the new DE codex, you'll understand that we basically got screwed as bad as any other codex in the new era of 7th Edition releases.

You don't have to be defensive about this. I don't think anyone of us has anything aginst you just because you play Eldar. It isn't a crime or anything. I have nothing against Eldar players, even the ones that abuse the new rules set.
The fault lies with the poor rules that we have, not in the players.

blaktoof wrote:
the wraithknights heavy wraith cannon is not blast, and is 1 shot per.

So against deffkoptas it would average 2 rolls to hit at BS 4 or 1.32 hits.

as a D weapon it rolls on a chart. On 1 no effect, 2-5 the model suffers d3 wounds. 6 the model is pretty much dead and does not get cover[no jink save]

1.32 hits results in
.21 results of 1
.87 results of 2-5
.21 results of 6

on a 2-5 it does d3 wounds and you get cover which results in average 2 wounds, with cover[jink] you have a 33% chance to save. I wouldn't bother jinking.

End result without jink you have 1.1 casualties, average of 1 deffkopta dies a turn.

With jink you have .78 casualties, which will average still 1 most of the time.

10 deffkoptas will kill a Wk if you stay out of assault, and it has no other guns just the two heavy wraith cannons, but it will probably take 6 turns....would be hard to stay out of assault that whole time.

Unrelated to that, a greentide would hurt WKs. The heavy wraithcannons are wasted as they are gibbing 6 point boys most of the time, and if you catch a Wk in assault- when you cover the whole table it will happen, praise WAAAGHing every turn. 10 PK nobs and a PK warboss will put a lot of hurt out before stomps happen. Assuming BBP for +1 ws and fearless 10 nobs will have 40 attacks on the charge hitting on 3s, so 27 hits. With FC you are looking at S9 hits for wounding on 3+. Thats 18 wounds, it will FnP save 6 leaving 12, if it has the 5++ it will save 4 more still leaving 8. If not charging 10 nobs will hit 18 times, doing 9 wounds on average, after Fnp 6 wounds, average 4 if the model has shield also. That's without the warboss. Of course this assumes you get 10 nobs into assault range

You only need 8 nobs, or 6+ warboss to make it into assault to gib the WK before stomps. This unit of course would cost much more than a Wk, and against 4 Wks The stomps would hurt but being as you can probably get all the nobs and warboss into assault range with the boys[boys aren't doing much...] if there are 4 Wks in assault with the tide you are looking at killing 2 Wks a turn of assault if all the nobs and Warboss are fighting. Even if the tide gets charged by a Wk it will most likely crush it in 1 turn due to pile in moves. Considering if the orks charge the knights, and will likely wipe out 2 WKs before stomps, you are only looking at 2d3 stomps, average 4- each one will hit on average 5 models, so 20 rolls on the stomp table. 3 of those will instagib something, 3 will do nothing, and the remaining 14 will cause a str6 hit, which against boys will be 12 wounds before FnP, 8 after FnP. Total of 11 boys lost, most likely stomps will not kill nobs outright due to multi wounds. Those are pretty acceptable for a greentide. Especially since next round will most likely see 1-2 more Wks dead

What happens if the Nobs/bosses get splatted by the 2 sun cannon knights?

almost every single model in the codex got a free buff (not even considering the formation buffs), so, yes the signing spear got better, they now get a 4+ cover save if they moved in the past movement phase.

I have a question about the Cimson death formation, everyone is saying they get a free 4+ cover save that becomes re-rollable if you actually jink. but I have the codex and it only mentions that the formation gives prefered enemy to flyers and FMC. where is the cover save rule? what page?

 fartherthanfar wrote:


I have a question about the Cimson death formation, everyone is saying they get a free 4+ cover save that becomes re-rollable if you actually jink. but I have the codex and it only mentions that the formation gives prefered enemy to flyers and FMC. where is the cover save rule? what page?

It must have been a rumour or an exaggeration, they don't. All that changed about Crimson Hunters in this Codex is a points drop.

Love your first comment Pipeally

 PipeAlley wrote:
IMHO the only ever broken codex is the 2011 Grey Knights. So redonkulous OP for cheap. The only saving grace was the actual cost of the models prevented many from playing the most serious cheese lists.

Also, if you're willing to accept the ridicule of playing Eldar, you should be rewarded with something OP to offset the Real World shame all Eldar players must feel. Also, most of the whining comes from people with other OP armies.

Orks ain't complaining about the New Eldar, same as the Old Eldar. We had to sit through all of 5th and 6th with a 4th Ed codex and suffer huge nerfs when it came out. We played on.

I hope everyone runs out and buys the new wraithguard models just like they did with the Grey Knight Dreadknights and the Chaos Hell Turkeys. That's what keeps the game going while I'm still using 20th century models. I'm not sorry my Trukks are half the size of a Rhino and carry 6 MegaNobz. 100% GW legal model.

Ally Orks if you're worried. We have plenty of answers for Eldar, and Necrons, and Marines, and Chaos.

Just to make this an actual post regarding OP, are the range D weapons only 24"? Pfft, no problem. Lootas are 48". IMHO opinion no Codex choice should ever be banned as long as Unbound is allowed. Orks Codex was the first 7th edition codex and was specifically written to be used as Unbound.

There is balance between codices when there is no balance within codicies. Waoh that was totally zen!

As i see it, if eldar win, its like, no biggy, you werent expecting to win, but if you DO win, then WOW!

I like that us ork players just wonna see stuff blow up. The bigger and scarier the enemy (like a wraithknight for example), the more glorious when they get STOMPED

As for the Eldar codex, I dont agree at all with ANY of the buffs, but agree with the serpent nerf. Eldar didnt need to be buffed AT ALL and some people are rightly annoyed. However, that doesn't mean your opponents aren't gonna squish you if they can.

The D weapons are stupid. End of. there was NO NEED at all and a range of 12" is not a justification because they can take a wave serpent, which means they move 6, disembark 6 and shoot 12. so they effectively shoot 24". The main reason i think it is plain dumb is because they can take out basically anything in the game now. Oh, you have a vehicle worth more than my entire squad and transport with 4 hull points...? OH, NO YOU DONT.

Rant over.

Da boyz will be pickin eldar from der teef anyway.
WAAAGH!

Chancetragedy wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I have yet to see a list that can tackle:
Farseer
Warlock
3x3 jet bikes
1 Viper
3 Wraith Knights with wraithcannons
1 Wraith Knight with suncannon
1 Wraith knight with Glaive
(45 points left for gear)

1850 points, battle forged with a single detachment.

The craftworlds requires outside rules to limit them.

I feel moderately confident centstar can beat that depending on half decent terrain. I'm actually going to be testing against a list like that this week just for giggles. Even if I know I'll almost never see something that bad.

No chance. It only takes one WK to catch the deathstar and either tie it up or kill it outright. That leaves 4 WKs to ROFLstomp the rest of your army. You may take one out before you get caught IF you're lucky, but again that depends on cover saves and/or FNP for the WK.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
The wraithguards D weapons are 12" range. The ranged D on the artillery guns are 24". On the wraithknight, they're 36", and those are the longest range in the codex.

Hemlocks have two 18'' range small blast D weapons (at -1 on the D chart). On a flier platform, this means map-wide D threat range as early as T2.