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Ok, so I've been kicking around the idea of making a deathstar based around Gate of Infinity and Baharroth. Essentially, it would allow Baharroth to use his special blind attack and grenade pack every turn by Gating around the table. Further, because Gate of Infinity wouldn't scatter due to his "Herald of Victory" special rule, it would perfectly position the unit for witchfires, novas, singing spear strikes, etc.

The unit composition that I'm thinking about using looks like this:

Baharroth
Seer Council, Containing:
Eldrad
Farseer w/Singing Spear & Spirit Stone of Anath'Lan
5-7 Warlocks w/Singing Spears
-End of Seer Council-
(Possibly 2nd Farseer if I get bad luck on psychic rolls)

I'd be rolling on the Sanctic table with Eldrad, hoping for Gate, Sanctuary, Hammerhand, and Cleansing blast or whatever it's called(The nova power).
Warlocks roll on runes of battle for the tactical flexibility of those powers, so long as Eldrad gets Gate. Otherwise, they can roll on Sanctic.
Unless I've had terrible luck(ie, no Gate yet), I will be rolling on Runes of Fate with the Farseer for Fortune and Eldritch Storm. If I get what I want with the first 2 rolls(it happens!), will pick up psychic shriek from telepathy.
Worst case scenario, I end up having to roll my non-seer council Farseer into the group. I expect this to happen VERY rarely based on the math. If he also doesn't get the right powers, we'll just say the Gods didn't favor us this day.

Ultimately, if everything falls together correctly, the deathstar should have the following:

Fearless
Fleet
Hit & Run
Herald of Victory(Doesn't Scatter)
Battle Focus
Succeeds in psychic rolls on a 3+ instead of 4+
10 Psychic Powers
2++/3++ Rerollable saves
S5/S6 Fleshbane/AP3 CC weapons
Blind enemies within 6" on arrival by Gate.
Throw Grenade pack on arrival by Gate.
Several possible Nova/Witchfire attacks(Destructor, Psychic Shriek, Cleansing Blast, Eldritch Storm)
8 S9 Ranged fleshbane attacks(singing spears)

If they're assaulted by a big bad that they'd have trouble killing in CC, they can just decline challenges, maybe take a loss of a warlock, and use hit & run to leave the combate and shoot the crap out of them or gate away to shoot something else. They're not terrible in melee, but that's not where they shine, either. This unit is best -just- outside of melee. Most times, I'd say units close enough to charge them will either be blinded, or too wounded from shots to be much of a threat. Thoughts?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Any feedback at all would be appreciated. Does the idea suck? Do you think it will work most of the time? Not work? Too expensive? Not enough dakka?

It's a solid idea, but I think you're approaching it from the wrong way.

Blind is fun, but it's not something to build a 900 point deathstar around. Units will not be blinded 'most of the time'. You're looking at 1/3 of the time if they are Init 4, 1/6 if the unit contains any sort of decent character.

I think rolling for invisibility is better for a deathstar. Then start looking for fortune. For an even more solid brick.

Warlocks can always look for Santic powers otherwise.

The strength of the council is actually in combat. When you've got invis up, you want to be there. Then use the free movement from H&R to get to your next target.

Eldrad will slow the unit down, but there's tricks to get around this. Move 12'' in your movement phase, and string the unit out a bit to keep 'Drad in coherency. Then turbo-boost in a great big conga line. Get your lead unit close to a selection of solid charge targets for turn 2. Get a charge off on turn 2, and watch as Eldrad get's drawn in via consolidation moves. Then you get to H&R and do it all over again. Don't forget that Eldrad give scout too

Gateing around the table is fun and all, but the council won't make combat on the turn it does so. There no comparison of the damage such a unit can do in combat vs a handful of witchfires. Get those multicharges off, and watch units get eaten as they lose combat.

Baharroth is there for just a few reasons. H&R, Fearless, 2+, and Eternal warrior. That's it. Don't try and use his blind ability to any great effect, it's the worst of all his rules.

If you want to do this just go back and find the tournament lists featuring baron led seerstars and replace baron with baharroth.

Quick list; 2 farseers, 8-10 warlocks, all on bikes, baharroth. You need fortune/invisibility; I'd go for fortune first as the other powers are some of the best in the game. Remember baharroth doesn't have an invulnerable save so he won't be tanking low AP weapons. Also this is like a 700-800 point unit.

a few notes; I don't have the new dex but I was pretty sure the following rules were in the previous, so do they still carry over?

grenade pack could only be used if the entire unit had the rule? Can't remember if that was true.

Herald of victory I was pretty sure required all models in the unit to have said rule. So by adding baharroth you wouldn't add no scatter DS, which apart from HnR is his main contribution?

Solar Shock wrote:
a few notes; I don't have the new dex but I was pretty sure the following rules were in the previous, so do they still carry over?

grenade pack could only be used if the entire unit had the rule? Can't remember if that was true.

Herald of victory I was pretty sure required all models in the unit to have said rule. So by adding baharroth you wouldn't add no scatter DS, which apart from HnR is his main contribution?

Grenade pack can be used with only 1 model having it. It becomes large blast instead of blast if it has X # of models that also have grenade packs. Although, after looking at the rule closer, it specifies that it triggers when arriving from "deep strike reserve". So this part of the rule likely wouldn't work.

Herald of Victory specifically only requires "at least one model" to take effect.

you might be right on the grenade pack, I think that's probably going to be a strong argument against that trick.

And that's good to know change from last dex then. So technically, if it works with HoV, then you could for a cheaper deathstar use an autarch with wings. You'd lose a few benefits like HnR however.

Solar Shock wrote:
you might be right on the grenade pack, I think that's probably going to be a strong argument against that trick.

And that's good to know change from last dex then. So technically, if it works with HoV, then you could for a cheaper deathstar use an autarch with wings. You'd lose a few benefits like HnR however.

Do the wings give him herald of victory? I'll have to look that one up. If so, nice catch! That's useful information.

not entirely sure, I thought the rule was attached to the wings in the previous dex or something like that. If you have the dex can you confirm?

The wings give you an 18" movement, and lets you remove the unit from play and go into ongoing reserves.
They do not give you herald of victory.

Baharoth is there for H&R. Like his Aspect, he's a skirmisher, not a fighter.

Herald of Victory is a special rule, which Baharroth has, and yes, you only need one model in the unit for it to work. As for the grenade pack, it works with only one model but you need at least 6 with it to make it a Large Blast.

Bharring wrote:
Baharoth is there for H&R. Like his Aspect, he's a skirmisher, not a fighter.

He can actually be pretty decent in a challenge with anything that doesn't have AP2. Since he's got a 2+, against anything that doesn't have AP2, he's eternal warrior, and WS7 S4/T4 W3 A4. He has a power sword, but most importantly, he has the blind special rule on his power sword. So, if you're facing a fairly nasty CC character that has lots of AP3 attacks, Baharroth can tie him up, tank his attacks, and force an initiative test EVERY ROUND of combat against the entire enemy unit. If they fail the test once, they drop to WS/BS 1, which will make any other model in the game hit them on a 3+. So, yeah, he's not necessarily a brutal killer, but he's a good tank/debuffer against enemy brutal killers, so long as they don't have an AP2 weapon.

In certain circumstances, you could still safely put him up against a guy with an AP2 weapon, such as against a space marine sarg with a power fist who'd been blinded(or even if he hadn't.). Odds are, they're going to die before they use their AP2 weapon, and even if they DO get to use it, they probably won't kill Baharroth unless he's already been wounded, since he has eternal warrior and 3 wounds.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Baharoth is there for H&R. Like his Aspect, he's a skirmisher, not a fighter.

He can actually be pretty decent in a challenge with anything that doesn't have AP2. Since he's got a 2+, against anything that doesn't have AP2, he's eternal warrior, and WS7 S4/T4 W3 A4. He has a power sword, but most importantly, he has the blind special rule on his power sword. So, if you're facing a fairly nasty CC character that has lots of AP3 attacks, Baharroth can tie him up, tank his attacks, and force an initiative test EVERY ROUND of combat against the entire enemy unit. If they fail the test once, they drop to WS/BS 1, which will make any other model in the game hit them on a 3+. So, yeah, he's not necessarily a brutal killer, but he's a good tank/debuffer against enemy brutal killers, so long as they don't have an AP2 weapon.

In certain circumstances, you could still safely put him up against a guy with an AP2 weapon, such as against a space marine sarg with a power fist who'd been blinded(or even if he hadn't.). Odds are, they're going to die before they use their AP2 weapon, and even if they DO get to use it, they probably won't kill Baharroth unless he's already been wounded, since he has eternal warrior and 3 wounds.

Isn't Jain Zar for an Auto -5 WS and -5 Init better than hoping for blind?

I don't know if a seer group is best, or maybe go for 10 D-scythes, with Baharroth, an attached warlock, a spirit seer and Eldrad.
First unit to charge in dies. Gates every turn and torches with massed Strength D.
You could do it as a cheap CAD (for Eldrad and Baharroth) and a Spirit host detachment (so you can battle focus after deep striking, then fire).

HawaiiMatt is spot on. One of the most under discussed topics is Battle Focus. If you build the army entirely as an Eldar Warhost, then you get the auto 6" Battle Focus, which applies to the Wraith Host.

To build it is a bit expensive as there are some taxes added onto the army, but generally speaking:

Windrider Host
Wraith Host (8-10 D-Scythes as a single unit as one of the three Wraith units)
Eldrad
Baharroth

Now, you can use Gate, then battle focus 6 inches to really spread out and do much more damage.

Depending on what psychic powers are rolled, I could envision the following:

Eldrad
8-10 Wraithguard w/ D-Scythes
Baharroth

 Sarigar wrote:
HawaiiMatt is spot on. One of the most under discussed topics is Battle Focus. If you build the army entirely as an Eldar Warhost, then you get the auto 6" Battle Focus, which applies to the Wraith Host.

To build it is a bit expensive as there are some taxes added onto the army, but generally speaking:

Windrider Host
Wraith Host (8-10 D-Scythes as a single unit as one of the three Wraith units)
Eldrad
Baharroth

Now, you can use Gate, then battle focus 6 inches to really spread out and do much more damage.

Depending on what psychic powers are rolled, I could envision the following:

Eldrad
8-10 Wraithguard w/ D-Scythes
Baharroth

Yeah, it'd be a nasty unit because with Baharroth giving the WG hit & run, it really addresses the WGs 1 weakness, which is being tied down in melee, making their ranged D-weapons useless. They're hard to kill, but not particularly scary in CC offensively. Of course, if you lost Baharroth, the unit would once again have a glaring weakness, so you'd have to do everything you could to protect him. Although, if your meta allows Gate of Infinity to be used while in CC, as many do, then you can also kind of use Gate as a low-rent version of hit&run in a pinch.

That is true about Gate. In the list I have, it has Eldrad, Farseer and a Spiritseer. Lots of psychic shenanigans to make the unit more durable. But, there are 2 more WG squads and a WK that also are getting the 6" Battle Focus move for your opponent to worry about.

At 1850, you can run the Windrider and Wraith hosts along with Eldrad and Baharroth to get the 6" Battle Focus, among other bonuses.

 Sarigar wrote:
That is true about Gate. In the list I have, it has Eldrad, Farseer and a Spiritseer. Lots of psychic shenanigans to make the unit more durable. But, there are 2 more WG squads and a WK that also are getting the 6" Battle Focus move for your opponent to worry about.

At 1850, you can run the Windrider and Wraith hosts along with Eldrad and Baharroth to get the 6" Battle Focus, among other bonuses.

It can be done, but you don't have a lot of points left.

Bare Bones Wind Rider is 358
Bare Bones Spirit Host is 965 (and that's with 2x5 wraithguard and 5 wraith scythes)
Both Special characters add in 365 more.
At most, you can squeeze in 3 more wraithscythes, for a unit of 8 in the death star, and then you've got 36 points left for upgrades (some guns for the wraith lord most likely).

You want Baharroth not just for hit and run, but also to prevent scatter on gate.
Gate in, battle fortune 6", and erase a unit with 8 D-scythes.
Problem is if you don't roll up gate, or you need the 2nd or 3rd psyker to get it, you've lost the option to roll for invisibility.
If you get gate and invisibility, this unit is a ball buster.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Problem is if you don't roll up gate, or you need the 2nd or 3rd psyker to get it, you've lost the option to roll for invisibility.
If you get gate and invisibility, this unit is a ball buster.

Even without invisibility, this unit is a tough nut to crack. T6 with 2+ EW to tank hits. Can always 2+ LoS them if they're AP2 hits. Or not. With EW, he can take a couple wound on him and the unit may be better off for it. But with 8 template D-scythes, you're likely going to eliminate a lot of local threats anyhow. Since you can't gate + charge, there is no reason not to use the 6 inch battle focus to ensure they get a cover save either. So, shooting them will be really difficult, and who wants to charge a unit that gets 8d3 wall of death D-weapon autohits as overwatch?


EDIT: That overwatch would AVERAGE killing 10 man squads of terminators.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Problem is if you don't roll up gate, or you need the 2nd or 3rd psyker to get it, you've lost the option to roll for invisibility.
If you get gate and invisibility, this unit is a ball buster.

Even without invisibility, this unit is a tough nut to crack. T6 with 2+ EW to tank hits. Can always 2+ LoS them if they're AP2 hits. Or not. With EW, he can take a couple wound on him and the unit may be better off for it. But with 8 template D-scythes, you're likely going to eliminate a lot of local threats anyhow. Since you can't gate + charge, there is no reason not to use the 6 inch battle focus to ensure they get a cover save either. So, shooting them will be really difficult, and who wants to charge a unit that gets 8d3 wall of death D-weapon autohits as overwatch?

EDIT: That overwatch would AVERAGE killing 10 man squads of terminators.

Shooting them will be slightly difficult. 2+ isn't that hard to get around, and you cannot really afford to lose Baharroth, you need his no-scatter.
It's also an army with only 2 real threats; the wraith knight and the death star. The rest is largely under-gunned, slow or squishy.
I wouldn't hesitate to fire every gun I had at this unit. You will impair it's firepower.
Now, if you can get invis, or conceal and fortune, I might just spread out and focus on the other units and go for objectives. Accept the loss of a unit a turn and move on.

As for the over-watch, while it might kill 10 terminators (more likely 7, as the terminators have a 5+ invul); you're more likely to be killing 10 guardsmen, or 5 space marine scouts, or 3 scout bikers, and the 2nd unit to hit you is going to be the damage dealer. Rememeber that the D-scythes are at -1 to the D table roll, so 1 or 2 does nothing at all. If my opponent had terminators at all, I expect they'd have storm shields, in which case you're looking at 3 or 4 kills. Then again, if they had terminators, I'd be trying to land either to kill all those terminators with my shooting, or landing well out of charge range.
Against my DE, that over-watch will be killing a beast pack, which likely consists of a single model.


IMO, you'd be better off running 3 units of Wraith Scythes in wave serpents, along with a DE coven (for 3 IC's with webways). You lose out on the Battle Fortune, but you've got a 6" disembark before firing, and you can pull that trick 3 times. It's 1557 bare bones.
It would look like this:
Eldar CAD:
Farseer
2x3 jetbikes
3x5 Wraith Guard with scythes, all mounted in wave serpents
Coven Formation
3x Haemonculus with webway portal
2x5 Wracks

Leaves some options (273 more points). If you downgrade farseer to spirit seer, you can get a wraith knight.
Its a similar list, it's just using redundancy instead of banking on psychic power generation and getting powers off unopposed.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Against my DE, that over-watch will be killing a beast pack, which likely consists of a single model.

You routinely run single-model beastpacks in your DE lists? lol, baller. I can see the utility of something like that, but I feel like you'd basically be giving away first blood if your opponent had any barrage weapons. Though, if he used them on a single model hiding out of LoS, that might give you an advantage in other parts of your army. Would still suck for kill points, but then, DE suck in KP games anyhow.

My list based on this concept.

Windrider Host.
Farseer, Spirit Stone
Warlock
3 x 3 Jetbikes with either Scatter/Shuriken
1 x 1 Vyper

Wraith Host
Spirit Seer
2 x 5 Wraithguard
1 x 5 Wraithguard w/ D-Scythes
1 x 1 Wraithlord w/ 2 Flamers
1 x 1 Wraithknight

Eldrad
Baharroth

Not a lot of points left for upgrades.
Eldrad is my first choice to go for Gate as he is level 4. If he gets it earlier, then I move over to Telepathy hoping for Invis or Shrouding. The Farseer hunts for Invis and the Spirit Seer is my last chance at Invis, but I hope it doesn't go that far.

It is only 5 D-Scythes, but with the 6" Battle Focus and no scatter deep strike, I think the positioning would work out ok.

Seems like an elf version of draigostar that has even bigger issues with flyers and less threats... Still point and click one squad a turn but without as good of an army in the side... Not knocking the ingenuity but trying to give my two cents

 Sarigar wrote:
My list based on this concept.

Windrider Host.
Farseer, Spirit Stone
Warlock
3 x 3 Jetbikes with either Scatter/Shuriken
1 x 1 Vyper

Wraith Host
Spirit Seer
2 x 5 Wraithguard
1 x 5 Wraithguard w/ D-Scythes
1 x 1 Wraithlord w/ 2 Flamers
1 x 1 Wraithknight

Eldrad
Baharroth

Not a lot of points left for upgrades.
Eldrad is my first choice to go for Gate as he is level 4. If he gets it earlier, then I move over to Telepathy hoping for Invis or Shrouding. The Farseer hunts for Invis and the Spirit Seer is my last chance at Invis, but I hope it doesn't go that far.

It is only 5 D-Scythes, but with the 6" Battle Focus and no scatter deep strike, I think the positioning would work out ok.

If you ditch the heavy weapons on the bikes you can squeeze in 2 more wraith scythes. IMO, a more bigger deathstar is more important. Bigger wall of death, more able to absorb losses.

Valid point. Depends a bit on the mission style as a final factor.

Having run something similar to this in the 6th edition book, I think you need more shots at getting gate, but can't without more sources. I had Eldrad + 5 spiritseers and a webway archon in a unit of 10 wraithguard with cannons. 14 shots at getting Gate and sometimes no one got it. You're looking at 9 rolls and no guaranteed way of deepstriking even if you don't get Gate, meaning the wraithguard & psychers will have to foot slog it and be horribly out of position.

It is a fun concept, but it's much harder to pull off with the new book.
Your one benefit is that the unit will all have battle focus, so you can spread out after a successful gate (provided you have it) if you decide to go with the scythes, though I'd advise against that.

Scythe guard are much more limited in range, can't snap shoot (vs flyers or fmcs) and might not all get to shoot if shooting through their own unit, though a guaranteed 6" run mitigates that one concern. Cannons also wound on 2's and can roll 6's to obliterate things.

I find that the guard need to take out high priority targets and be supported with other hardy units and things that can deal with msu or cheap combat units. I used a large unit of clawed fiends, but I guess a formation wraithlord would suffice.

Despite baharroth, remember that hit & run can be blocked by other units and will force you to gate, so don't rely on psychic powers to do most of the heavy lifting.

As a final thought, remember that you can still just get outscored as the guard no longer are obsec as they were last codex. You can easily lose going against a CAD in that manner, so be careful.

I am very familiar with the chances; not getting a specific power happens. With a level 4 rolling on one chart, it is not great odds but it has happened to me once in a blue moon. If I don't get it in 9 rolls, well, that will be one to lament and drink a beer early.

With Eldrad's Warlord trait granting Scout, the units that are granted Scout can opt to Outflank, correct?

Back to the Baharroth deathstar, what about B-Roth in a full squad of shining spears?
Add in a farseer or two, and an autarch or two, and you've got a durable, fast, hard hitting unit that cannot be tarpitted.

Fish for hammerhand and fortune for powers.

If you aren't running dual CAD, what are your thoughts on putting in 2 Farseers, 2 Autarchs and Baharroth?

 Sarigar wrote:
If you aren't running dual CAD, what are your thoughts on putting in 2 Farseers, 2 Autarchs and Baharroth?

You get a farseer on jet bike with the 358 point wind riders host; which opens up 0-3 on the autarchs/phoenix lords. The CAD gives you the 2nd seer, if you want 2 seers.

-Matt

Full units of Spears might disappoint because of the 6" range of their shots, you simply can't physically place a lot of models within 6". Same goes for HoW attacks.