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I was wondering how farseers taken as part of the seer council formation would work after all of the warlocks from the unit die, as it says they join the unit and cannot leave, but doesn't explicitly say they lose the IC rule.
Psychic Bond:
Spoiler:
Both Farseers must join the Warlock Conclave before deployment, and cannot leave the unit.
If all of the warlocks die can the two farseers join another unit or are they stuck as a 2 man unit?
If they can join another squad, can they separate and join 2 different squads?
If they cant both join another squad, can the final farseer join units after all warlocks and the other farseer die?
Arguments:
Farseers can split up and join different squads
- "The unit" refers to the warlock conclave, once the entire conclave is gone there is no squad that you cannot leave.
-The two farseers can join the same squad as detailed below, after that the seer council squad ceases to exist and can then join different units in subsequent turns.
Farseers can both join the same squad
- The squad is composed entirely of ICs and ICs can join squads.
- If they both join the same squad at the same time they are not leaving anyone behind therefore they are not leaving the seer council unit, it is simply ceasing to exist.
Only the last farseer can join a unit
- The entire council including the farseers is "the unit", and the farseers would have to join another unit one at a time, therefore leaving the unit.
- If only one farseer is left the unit just ceases to exist as it is just a lone farseer, so he can join whatever squad he wants.
Farseers can never join another squad
- Any model that starts in the unit is labelled as part of "the unit" until it dies.
- Joining a different squad counts as leaving your original squad even if it is just 1 model left.
- Possible RAI, they lose the IC rule when they join the squad.
I will try to keep this list up to date with different ideas.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/05/04 15:13:11
What about if I put it another way I have 2 farseers on their own, both are independent characters and form the seer council. What if I move dire avengers into coherency with them to join the squad entirely composed of independent characters? The farseers aren't actually leaving the squad then. What if I do the same with 1 farseer?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/30 19:44:20
roflmajog wrote: What about if I put it another way I have 2 farseers on their own, both are independent characters and form the seer council. What if I move dire avengers into coherency with them to join the squad entirely composed of independent characters? The farseers aren't actually leaving the squad then. What if I do the same with 1 farseer?
The Dire Avengers have no ability to join any other unit. If an IC remains stationary and a unit of Dire Avengers moves to within coherency, no joining takes place. Joining requires that the IC moves into coherency.
Assume you have two Farseers remaining in a Seer Council Unit. If a third, "free agent" Farseer moves into coherency with the intent of joining the Seer Council, you will end up with a Seer Council Unit composed of three Farseers... two who can't leave and one who can.
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Kriswall wrote: If an IC remains stationary and a unit of Dire Avengers moves to within coherency, no joining takes place. Joining requires that the IC moves into coherency.
I don't have my rulebook to reference the specific quote, but under the IC rules there is a phrase that goes something like, "If at the end of the movement phase, an IC is not more than 2" from a unit, the IC automatically joins that unit. If within 2" of multiple units, the owning player must designate one of the units to be joined"---paraphrasing.
So, no, an IC does not HAVE to move into coherency to join a unit. In the Example of the 2 Farseers near the Dire Avengers, I see nothing in the Formation's "Psychic Bond" rule that would prevent the Farseers from joining the Dire Avengers automatically. This could only be done if all the Warlocks have been killed
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/30 20:43:25
Kriswall wrote: If an IC remains stationary and a unit of Dire Avengers moves to within coherency, no joining takes place. Joining requires that the IC moves into coherency.
I don't have my rulebook to reference the specific quote, but under the IC rules there is a phrase that goes something like, "If at the end of the movement phase, an IC is not more than 2" from a unit, the IC automatically joins that unit. If within 2" of multiple units, the owning player must designate one of the units to be joined"---paraphrasing.
So, no, an IC does not HAVE to move into coherency to join a unit. In the Example of the 2 Farseers near the Dire Avengers, I see nothing in the Formation's "Psychic Bond" rule that would prevent the Farseers from joining the Dire Avengers automatically. This could only be done if all the Warlocks have been killed
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Actually, you're only posting part of the rules. You're ignoring the first sentence of the paragraph. Here is the full rule...
"In order to join a unit, an Independent Character simply has to move so that he is within 2" unit coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their movement phase. If the Independent Character is within 2" of more than one unit at the end of the movement phase, the player must declare which unit it is joining..."
So, you see, in order to join a unit, the IC has to move. If the IC remains stationary, it hasn't fulfilled the requirement to move. The second sentence just tells me that if I move and end up within 2" unit coherency of multiple units that I have to pick which I'm joining. You can't just take the second sentence out of context. If it were a seperate paragraph, maybe, but it's not.
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roflmajog wrote: The farseers aren't actually leaving the squad then
If they aren't leaving the first unit, there is no way for them to join another.
I see it as the 2 units joining together to make 1 larger unit.
Also are they really leaving the unit if there is no-one left to leave behind? It could easily be argued that the original unit just ceases to exist.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/30 21:24:15
roflmajog wrote: The farseers aren't actually leaving the squad then
If they aren't leaving the first unit, there is no way for them to join another.
Actually, I would argue that they currently exist as a unit entirely composed of ICs. Such units are typically allowed to join other units. They never actually leave the Seer Council Unit. the Seer Council Unit simply ceases to exist when the two Farseers join, say, a unit of Dire Avengers. From a RaW standpoint, I think it would be easy to argue that you could use joining a second unit as a way of breaking apart two Farseers originating in the Seer Council Unit.
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If an Independent Character joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase.
(BRB p166, 4th paragraph of "Joining and Leaving a Unit").
Not convinced this gets around the restriction, but I feel it is the part of the rule this thread was seeking.
My interpretation: if the unit is down to two Farseers, the above rule helps not a jot, but if only one Farseers remains, he becomes a unit of one model - whether that unit is "Farseer" or "Seer Council" doesn't necessarily matter. Now, the IC rule could allow him to join another unit at this stage - he's not "leaving" the Seer Council unit, it's simply ceasing to exist in the same way a normal Farseer unit ceases to be when joined to a unit.
I'll admit I'm skeptical of even my own reasoning, and doubt that it is RAI, but I mention it as a different viewpoint.
Do they not join the warlock conclave, rather than making a new seer council unit? If they are still three units, with a restriction that the Farseers must be attached to the warlock conclave, if the warlock conclave no longer exists, what is stopping them from joining another unit?
roflmajog wrote: The farseers aren't actually leaving the squad then
If they aren't leaving the first unit, there is no way for them to join another.
Actually, I would argue that they currently exist as a unit entirely composed of ICs. Such units are typically allowed to join other units. They never actually leave the Seer Council Unit. the Seer Council Unit simply ceases to exist when the two Farseers join, say, a unit of Dire Avengers. From a RaW standpoint, I think it would be easy to argue that you could use joining a second unit as a way of breaking apart two Farseers originating in the Seer Council Unit.
No a unit entirely composed of ics cannot join another unit. They must each leave the unit(which is a whatever unit was first joined by the first ic) and join the other unit. In actual play the difference does not normally matter, but in this case it does.
For example lets say I take my SM, IG, and GK armies together. If I bring a lord commissar, a Co-Com, a Chaplain, a Grand master and a Librarian(either SM or GK), it absolutely matters which order I join all the ICs. If any IC joins the GM, chappie, or either librarian first, the whole unit will either be a GK or SM unit, but if I have the first IC join der commissar, then it will be a unit from Codex:AM and thus eligible to receive orders via "voice of command" from the co-com.
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Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
Don't the rules say that when a unit dies, the attached IC leaves the unit?
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
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Happyjew wrote: Don't the rules say that when a unit dies, the attached IC leaves the unit?
No. The relevant rule was already quoted - he just again 'becomes' a unit of one model. Which he already was anyway, so the rule is essentially meaningless.
The Psychic Bond rule quoted at the start of the thread though says that he can never leave the unit. No exception is made for the unit being dead.
So, as far as I can see, RAW-wise, he would still be considered a part of that unit, just that unit would now consist of a single model (the IC). Since he can't leave that unit (as he is unable to leave himself, both by RAW and the laws of physics) he is unable to join another.
HIWPI is that the unit is gone, he's free to join whatever. Because in this case, the RAW is stupid.
I do think a large part of this discussion is the ambiguous nature of the phrase "the unit" in the rule. It could either refer to just warlock conclave or the seer council as a whole, and each would give quite different results.
roflmajog wrote: I do think a large part of this discussion is the ambiguous nature of the phrase "the unit" in the rule. It could either refer to just warlock conclave or the seer council as a whole, and each would give quite different results.
The term 'unit' within the rules isn't ambiguous at all.
roflmajog wrote: I do think a large part of this discussion is the ambiguous nature of the phrase "the unit" in the rule. It could either refer to just warlock conclave or the seer council as a whole, and each would give quite different results.
The term 'unit' within the rules isn't ambiguous at all.
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roflmajog wrote: What about if I put it another way I have 2 farseers on their own, both are independent characters and form the seer council. What if I move dire avengers into coherency with them to join the squad entirely composed of independent characters? The farseers aren't actually leaving the squad then. What if I do the same with 1 farseer?
The Dire Avengers have no ability to join any other unit. If an IC remains stationary and a unit of Dire Avengers moves to within coherency, no joining takes place. Joining requires that the IC moves into coherency.
Assume you have two Farseers remaining in a Seer Council Unit. If a third, "free agent" Farseer moves into coherency with the intent of joining the Seer Council, you will end up with a Seer Council Unit composed of three Farseers... two who can't leave and one who can.
I think you guys are mistaken. The rule doesnt say anything about a "Seer Council Unit."
Both Farseers must join the Warlock Conclave before deployment, and cannot leave the unit.
If the Warlock Conclave is dead, the farseers do not have to leave the unit, it just no longer exists. They can then join another unit without breaking the rule, as they never left the Warlock Conclave.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/03 14:20:15
roflmajog wrote: What about if I put it another way I have 2 farseers on their own, both are independent characters and form the seer council. What if I move dire avengers into coherency with them to join the squad entirely composed of independent characters? The farseers aren't actually leaving the squad then. What if I do the same with 1 farseer?
The Dire Avengers have no ability to join any other unit. If an IC remains stationary and a unit of Dire Avengers moves to within coherency, no joining takes place. Joining requires that the IC moves into coherency.
Assume you have two Farseers remaining in a Seer Council Unit. If a third, "free agent" Farseer moves into coherency with the intent of joining the Seer Council, you will end up with a Seer Council Unit composed of three Farseers... two who can't leave and one who can.
I think you guys are mistaken. The rule doesnt say anything about a "Seer Council Unit."
Both Farseers must join the Warlock Conclave before deployment, and cannot leave the unit.
If the Warlock Conclave is dead, the farseers do not have to leave the unit, it just no longer exists. They can then join another unit without breaking the rule, as they never left the Warlock Conclave.
If a single IC is all that remains of an existing unit, the unit is no more and the IC again becomes a unit of one consisting of only himself. If two ICs are all that remains of an existing unit, the unit still exsits. IC #1 looks at IC #2 and thinks to himself, "right there is another member of the unit I've been in this whole time... at least for all rules purposes. Therefore, I don't leave, but instead remain a part of this unit." IC #2 thinks the same thing.
This is ridiculous, of course, but it's how the rules work.
Example...
A Codex: Space Marine Captain and a Codex: Space Marine Librarian join a Codex: Space Wolves Blood Claws Unit. The resulting unit is a "Blood Claws Unit". The two ICs are a part of it for all rules purposes. If all of the Blood Claws die and the player decides to leave the two ICs together, the two ICs are still in the same, original Blood Claws Unit. They never willingly left and they were never the last model alive in a unit. The IC and unit rules allow for all sort of weird things. If all the Warlocks die, the Farseers are still in the Warlock Conclave unit so long as there are at least two there.
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roflmajog wrote: What about if I put it another way I have 2 farseers on their own, both are independent characters and form the seer council. What if I move dire avengers into coherency with them to join the squad entirely composed of independent characters? The farseers aren't actually leaving the squad then. What if I do the same with 1 farseer?
The Dire Avengers have no ability to join any other unit. If an IC remains stationary and a unit of Dire Avengers moves to within coherency, no joining takes place. Joining requires that the IC moves into coherency.
Assume you have two Farseers remaining in a Seer Council Unit. If a third, "free agent" Farseer moves into coherency with the intent of joining the Seer Council, you will end up with a Seer Council Unit composed of three Farseers... two who can't leave and one who can.
I think you guys are mistaken. The rule doesnt say anything about a "Seer Council Unit."
Both Farseers must join the Warlock Conclave before deployment, and cannot leave the unit.
If the Warlock Conclave is dead, the farseers do not have to leave the unit, it just no longer exists. They can then join another unit without breaking the rule, as they never left the Warlock Conclave.
If a single IC is all that remains of an existing unit, the unit is no more and the IC again becomes a unit of one consisting of only himself. If two ICs are all that remains of an existing unit, the unit still exsits. IC #1 looks at IC #2 and thinks to himself, "right there is another member of the unit I've been in this whole time... at least for all rules purposes. Therefore, I don't leave, but instead remain a part of this unit." IC #2 thinks the same thing.
This is ridiculous, of course, but it's how the rules work.
Example...
A Codex: Space Marine Captain and a Codex: Space Marine Librarian join a Codex: Space Wolves Blood Claws Unit. The resulting unit is a "Blood Claws Unit". The two ICs are a part of it for all rules purposes. If all of the Blood Claws die and the player decides to leave the two ICs together, the two ICs are still in the same, original Blood Claws Unit. They never willingly left and they were never the last model alive in a unit. The IC and unit rules allow for all sort of weird things. If all the Warlocks die, the Farseers are still in the Warlock Conclave unit so long as there are at least two there.
Do you have a rules quote to back that up?
If the Warlock Conclave was still a unit, no kill points would be received for killing just the Warlocks. I inderstand that the two remaining farseers are still a unit, but they are certainly NOT a Warlock Conclave and thus, can seprarate and join other units as they please.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/03 21:18:10
I'd have to agree with extremefreak here, barring some rule showing that to be the case. If someone were making that assertion, that two ICs are still part of the "blood claws unit" even after all the proper blood claws have died, then that would mean that they would maintain the special rules associated with that unit, which they don't.
There is NO SUCH THING as MORE ADVANCED in 40k!!! There are ONLY 2 LEVELS of RULES: Basic and Advanced. THE END. Stop saying "More Advanced". That is not a recognized thing in modern 40k!!!! 2500
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I didn't say it made sense, but ICs only leave units under two primary circumstances... When they leave willing by moving out of coherence and when they are the last living model in the unit. The rules don't give any direction for what happens when multiple ICs are the last living models in a unit. In the absence of any direction to leave the unit, they remain.
This has been hashed out multiple times and I don't feel like typing out the rules AGAIN. Feel free to read the IC rules in full. You won't find anything telling you that an IC automatically reverts to being his own unit if there are still other models alive in the unit, which there are... Remember that each IC sees the other ICs as members of the original unit, for all rules purposes. Strictly speaking, joined ICs would continue to benefit from unit level rules so long as at least two ICs live and the player never moves the out of coherency.
If you really need a rules quote, just go read the IC sections on joining and leaving units. It's all in there. I would challenge you to provide a rules quote saying that two ICs leave a unit if they are the last ones alive.
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Kriswall wrote: I didn't say it made sense, but ICs only leave units under two primary circumstances... When they leave willing by moving out of coherence and when they are the last living model in the unit. The rules don't give any direction for what happens when multiple ICs are the last living models in a unit. In the absence of any direction to leave the unit, they remain.
This has been hashed out multiple times and I don't feel like typing out the rules AGAIN. Feel free to read the IC rules in full. You won't find anything telling you that an IC automatically reverts to being his own unit if there are still other models alive in the unit, which there are... Remember that each IC sees the other ICs as members of the original unit, for all rules purposes. Strictly speaking, joined ICs would continue to benefit from unit level rules so long as at least two ICs live and the player never moves the out of coherency.
If you really need a rules quote, just go read the IC sections on joining and leaving units. It's all in there. I would challenge you to provide a rules quote saying that two ICs leave a unit if they are the last ones alive.
I have read the rules. There is nothing in them that suggests the two remaining Farseers would remain a Warlock Conclave after the entire Warlock Conclave has been eliminated. It is pretty simple really.
Another example is 2 ICs who join a 3rd. Do you honestly think that the other 2 would retain the USRs of the 3rd IC even after he has been killed?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/05/04 03:42:55
Kriswall wrote: I didn't say it made sense, but ICs only leave units under two primary circumstances... When they leave willing by moving out of coherence and when they are the last living model in the unit. The rules don't give any direction for what happens when multiple ICs are the last living models in a unit. In the absence of any direction to leave the unit, they remain.
This has been hashed out multiple times and I don't feel like typing out the rules AGAIN. Feel free to read the IC rules in full. You won't find anything telling you that an IC automatically reverts to being his own unit if there are still other models alive in the unit, which there are... Remember that each IC sees the other ICs as members of the original unit, for all rules purposes. Strictly speaking, joined ICs would continue to benefit from unit level rules so long as at least two ICs live and the player never moves the out of coherency.
If you really need a rules quote, just go read the IC sections on joining and leaving units. It's all in there. I would challenge you to provide a rules quote saying that two ICs leave a unit if they are the last ones alive.
I have read the rules. There is nothing in them that suggests the two remaining Farseers would remain a Warlock Conclave after the entire Warlock Conclave has been eliminated. It is pretty simple really.
Another example is 2 ICs who join a 3rd. Do you honestly think that the other 2 would retain the USRs of the 3rd IC even after he has been killed?
Of course they wouldn't retain any MODEL level rules that the IC confers to the Unit as a whole. Most Model level rules require that the Unit contain a model with said rule. If the model dies, the Unit no longer contains the model. They would retain any UNIT Level rules... which the average IC doesn't have any of. Unit level rules would be things like Formation special rules or Detachment command benefits. Mileage is going to vary based on the actual wording of the rules. We would need specific examples to discuss this further.
I have also read the rules. There is nothing in them that suggests the two remaining Farseers WOULDN'T remain part of the "Warlock Conclave Unit" after the Warlock Models have been removed as casualties. Look at it this way... per the IC rules, the two Farseers are a part of the "Warlock Conclave Unit" for all rules purposes. If the Farseers are part of the Unit, and the Warlock Models all die, are there any Models left in the "Warlock Conclave Unit"? YES. There are two... they both happen to be Farseer ICs, but the still count as a part of the unit for all rules purposes. The rules ONLY tell us to revert an IC back to his own unit (basically him by himself) once he's the LAST Model alive in a unit. In this case, neither IC is the last Model alive in the unit. Each IC looks at the other IC and says "Oh, look. There's another member of the Warlock Conclave Unit. I guess I still have the option of sticking around."
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Kriswall wrote: I didn't say it made sense, but ICs only leave units under two primary circumstances... When they leave willing by moving out of coherence and when they are the last living model in the unit. The rules don't give any direction for what happens when multiple ICs are the last living models in a unit. In the absence of any direction to leave the unit, they remain.
This has been hashed out multiple times and I don't feel like typing out the rules AGAIN. Feel free to read the IC rules in full. You won't find anything telling you that an IC automatically reverts to being his own unit if there are still other models alive in the unit, which there are... Remember that each IC sees the other ICs as members of the original unit, for all rules purposes. Strictly speaking, joined ICs would continue to benefit from unit level rules so long as at least two ICs live and the player never moves the out of coherency.
If you really need a rules quote, just go read the IC sections on joining and leaving units. It's all in there. I would challenge you to provide a rules quote saying that two ICs leave a unit if they are the last ones alive.
I have read the rules. There is nothing in them that suggests the two remaining Farseers would remain a Warlock Conclave after the entire Warlock Conclave has been eliminated. It is pretty simple really.
Another example is 2 ICs who join a 3rd. Do you honestly think that the other 2 would retain the USRs of the 3rd IC even after he has been killed?
Of course they wouldn't retain any MODEL level rules that the IC confers to the Unit as a whole. Most Model level rules require that the Unit contain a model with said rule. If the model dies, the Unit no longer contains the model. They would retain any UNIT Level rules... which the average IC doesn't have any of. Unit level rules would be things like Formation special rules or Detachment command benefits. Mileage is going to vary based on the actual wording of the rules. We would need specific examples to discuss this further.
I have also read the rules. There is nothing in them that suggests the two remaining Farseers WOULDN'T remain part of the "Warlock Conclave Unit" after the Warlock Models have been removed as casualties. Look at it this way... per the IC rules, the two Farseers are a part of the "Warlock Conclave Unit" for all rules purposes. If the Farseers are part of the Unit, and the Warlock Models all die, are there any Models left in the "Warlock Conclave Unit"? YES. There are two... they both happen to be Farseer ICs, but the still count as a part of the unit for all rules purposes. The rules ONLY tell us to revert an IC back to his own unit (basically him by himself) once he's the LAST Model alive in a unit. In this case, neither IC is the last Model alive in the unit. Each IC looks at the other IC and says "Oh, look. There's another member of the Warlock Conclave Unit. I guess I still have the option of sticking around."
What you are saying would imply that in a kill points game you could say to your opponent "you don't get the kill point for killing this squad because it had two ICs in it and they are still alive so the unit is still alive". I don't think many people would accept that interpretation of the rules.
Kriswall wrote: I didn't say it made sense, but ICs only leave units under two primary circumstances... When they leave willing by moving out of coherence and when they are the last living model in the unit. The rules don't give any direction for what happens when multiple ICs are the last living models in a unit. In the absence of any direction to leave the unit, they remain.
This has been hashed out multiple times and I don't feel like typing out the rules AGAIN. Feel free to read the IC rules in full. You won't find anything telling you that an IC automatically reverts to being his own unit if there are still other models alive in the unit, which there are... Remember that each IC sees the other ICs as members of the original unit, for all rules purposes. Strictly speaking, joined ICs would continue to benefit from unit level rules so long as at least two ICs live and the player never moves the out of coherency.
If you really need a rules quote, just go read the IC sections on joining and leaving units. It's all in there. I would challenge you to provide a rules quote saying that two ICs leave a unit if they are the last ones alive.
I have read the rules. There is nothing in them that suggests the two remaining Farseers would remain a Warlock Conclave after the entire Warlock Conclave has been eliminated. It is pretty simple really.
Another example is 2 ICs who join a 3rd. Do you honestly think that the other 2 would retain the USRs of the 3rd IC even after he has been killed?
Of course they wouldn't retain any MODEL level rules that the IC confers to the Unit as a whole. Most Model level rules require that the Unit contain a model with said rule. If the model dies, the Unit no longer contains the model. They would retain any UNIT Level rules... which the average IC doesn't have any of. Unit level rules would be things like Formation special rules or Detachment command benefits. Mileage is going to vary based on the actual wording of the rules. We would need specific examples to discuss this further.
I have also read the rules. There is nothing in them that suggests the two remaining Farseers WOULDN'T remain part of the "Warlock Conclave Unit" after the Warlock Models have been removed as casualties. Look at it this way... per the IC rules, the two Farseers are a part of the "Warlock Conclave Unit" for all rules purposes. If the Farseers are part of the Unit, and the Warlock Models all die, are there any Models left in the "Warlock Conclave Unit"? YES. There are two... they both happen to be Farseer ICs, but the still count as a part of the unit for all rules purposes. The rules ONLY tell us to revert an IC back to his own unit (basically him by himself) once he's the LAST Model alive in a unit. In this case, neither IC is the last Model alive in the unit. Each IC looks at the other IC and says "Oh, look. There's another member of the Warlock Conclave Unit. I guess I still have the option of sticking around."
What you are saying would imply that in a kill points game you could say to your opponent "you don't get the kill point for killing this squad because it had two ICs in it and they are still alive so the unit is still alive". I don't think many people would accept that interpretation of the rules.
Disclaimer... this is not how I would play this. I am discussing the rules as written by Games Workshop.
BRB... Removed As A Casualty And Completely Destroyed Section - "When all of the models in a unit are removed as casualties, the unit is said to have been 'completely destroyed'."
BRB... Purge the Alien Mission Section - "At the end of the game, each player receives 1 Victory Point for each enemy unit that has been completely destroyed."
If you have a unit composed of a Tactical Squad, SM Captain and SM Libby and you get to a point where the Tactical Marines are all dead, you have two options.
Option #1... Choose to have either the Captain or the Libby leave the Unit. If you do so, the other IC becomes the last living model in the Unit and reverts back to his one Unit. The Tactical Squad has now been completely destroyed as there are no longer any remaining Models that haven't been removed as casualties. Your opponent scores a Victory Point. You now have two 'new' Units on the field for your opponent to potentially completely destroy.
Option #2... Choose to keep the Captain and the Libby together. As neither is the last Model in the 'Tactical Squad Unit', neither is forced to break off and revert to a single Model IC Unit. The 'Tactical Squad Unit' can't be said to have been completely destroyed as there are still living Models in the Unit. Your opponent does not score a Victory Point. There is only one Unit on the field that can be completely destroyed.
Please note, that in Option #2, if an opponent successfully kills IC #1, he scores a single Victory Point as he's only 'completely destroyed' a single unit. At the time of death that he's removed as a casualty, IC #1 was part of the 'Tactical Squad Unit' for all rules purposes, including scoring VPs. Once IC #2 is alone, he reverts to being his own Unit and becomes eligible to be completely destroyed. It's a weird rules interaction and isn't very intuitive.
Now again, this isn't how I play it. I don't think this is how most people play it. I think this is one of those issues like the psyker rules that just about everyone unknowingly house rules. BUT... it IS how the rules are written.
If you disagree, you need to find something in the rules that tell me the two Joined ICs are forcibly removed from the Unit when SOME of the other models die. I've been over the rules over and over and can't find anything. If you find something, please provide a citation.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As further evidence that I am correct, look at something like the Orks Green Tide Formation that says "The Green Tide counts as 11 units for Victory points if it is completely destroyed. " Under RaW, it would only count as 1 VP without this comment as it's only 1 Unit being completely destroyed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/04 16:44:51
Check out my website. Editorials! Tutorials! Fun Times To Be Had! - kriswallminis.com
Kriswall wrote: I didn't say it made sense, but ICs only leave units under two primary circumstances... When they leave willing by moving out of coherence and when they are the last living model in the unit. The rules don't give any direction for what happens when multiple ICs are the last living models in a unit. In the absence of any direction to leave the unit, they remain.
This has been hashed out multiple times and I don't feel like typing out the rules AGAIN. Feel free to read the IC rules in full. You won't find anything telling you that an IC automatically reverts to being his own unit if there are still other models alive in the unit, which there are... Remember that each IC sees the other ICs as members of the original unit, for all rules purposes. Strictly speaking, joined ICs would continue to benefit from unit level rules so long as at least two ICs live and the player never moves the out of coherency.
If you really need a rules quote, just go read the IC sections on joining and leaving units. It's all in there. I would challenge you to provide a rules quote saying that two ICs leave a unit if they are the last ones alive.
I have read the rules. There is nothing in them that suggests the two remaining Farseers would remain a Warlock Conclave after the entire Warlock Conclave has been eliminated. It is pretty simple really.
Another example is 2 ICs who join a 3rd. Do you honestly think that the other 2 would retain the USRs of the 3rd IC even after he has been killed?
Of course they wouldn't retain any MODEL level rules that the IC confers to the Unit as a whole. Most Model level rules require that the Unit contain a model with said rule. If the model dies, the Unit no longer contains the model. They would retain any UNIT Level rules... which the average IC doesn't have any of. Unit level rules would be things like Formation special rules or Detachment command benefits. Mileage is going to vary based on the actual wording of the rules. We would need specific examples to discuss this further.
I have also read the rules. There is nothing in them that suggests the two remaining Farseers WOULDN'T remain part of the "Warlock Conclave Unit" after the Warlock Models have been removed as casualties. Look at it this way... per the IC rules, the two Farseers are a part of the "Warlock Conclave Unit" for all rules purposes. If the Farseers are part of the Unit, and the Warlock Models all die, are there any Models left in the "Warlock Conclave Unit"? YES. There are two... they both happen to be Farseer ICs, but the still count as a part of the unit for all rules purposes. The rules ONLY tell us to revert an IC back to his own unit (basically him by himself) once he's the LAST Model alive in a unit. In this case, neither IC is the last Model alive in the unit. Each IC looks at the other IC and says "Oh, look. There's another member of the Warlock Conclave Unit. I guess I still have the option of sticking around."
What you are saying would imply that in a kill points game you could say to your opponent "you don't get the kill point for killing this squad because it had two ICs in it and they are still alive so the unit is still alive". I don't think many people would accept that interpretation of the rules.
Disclaimer... this is not how I would play this. I am discussing the rules as written by Games Workshop.
BRB... Removed As A Casualty And Completely Destroyed Section - "When all of the models in a unit are removed as casualties, the unit is said to have been 'completely destroyed'."
BRB... Purge the Alien Mission Section - "At the end of the game, each player receives 1 Victory Point for each enemy unit that has been completely destroyed."
If you have a unit composed of a Tactical Squad, SM Captain and SM Libby and you get to a point where the Tactical Marines are all dead, you have two options.
Option #1... Choose to have either the Captain or the Libby leave the Unit. If you do so, the other IC becomes the last living model in the Unit and reverts back to his one Unit. The Tactical Squad has now been completely destroyed as there are no longer any remaining Models that haven't been removed as casualties. Your opponent scores a Victory Point. You now have two 'new' Units on the field for your opponent to potentially completely destroy.
Option #2... Choose to keep the Captain and the Libby together. As neither is the last Model in the 'Tactical Squad Unit', neither is forced to break off and revert to a single Model IC Unit. The 'Tactical Squad Unit' can't be said to have been completely destroyed as there are still living Models in the Unit. Your opponent does not score a Victory Point. There is only one Unit on the field that can be completely destroyed.
Please note, that in Option #2, if an opponent successfully kills IC #1, he scores a single Victory Point as he's only 'completely destroyed' a single unit. At the time of death that he's removed as a casualty, IC #1 was part of the 'Tactical Squad Unit' for all rules purposes, including scoring VPs. Once IC #2 is alone, he reverts to being his own Unit and becomes eligible to be completely destroyed. It's a weird rules interaction and isn't very intuitive.
Now again, this isn't how I play it. I don't think this is how most people play it. I think this is one of those issues like the psyker rules that just about everyone unknowingly house rules. BUT... it IS how the rules are written.
If you disagree, you need to find something in the rules that tell me the two Joined ICs are forcibly removed from the Unit when SOME of the other models die. I've been over the rules over and over and can't find anything. If you find something, please provide a citation.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As further evidence that I am correct, look at something like the Orks Green Tide Formation that says "The Green Tide counts as 11 units for Victory points if it is completely destroyed. " Under RaW, it would only count as 1 VP without this comment as it's only 1 Unit being completely destroyed.
You still have not showed anything that gives you permission to be a part of a unit that doesn't exist. How can you refer to any special rules anyway when you don't have any unit to refer to? There are so many holes in this line of thinking.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/05 20:34:01
Kriswall wrote: I didn't say it made sense, but ICs only leave units under two primary circumstances... When they leave willing by moving out of coherence and when they are the last living model in the unit. The rules don't give any direction for what happens when multiple ICs are the last living models in a unit. In the absence of any direction to leave the unit, they remain.
This has been hashed out multiple times and I don't feel like typing out the rules AGAIN. Feel free to read the IC rules in full. You won't find anything telling you that an IC automatically reverts to being his own unit if there are still other models alive in the unit, which there are... Remember that each IC sees the other ICs as members of the original unit, for all rules purposes. Strictly speaking, joined ICs would continue to benefit from unit level rules so long as at least two ICs live and the player never moves the out of coherency.
If you really need a rules quote, just go read the IC sections on joining and leaving units. It's all in there. I would challenge you to provide a rules quote saying that two ICs leave a unit if they are the last ones alive.
I have read the rules. There is nothing in them that suggests the two remaining Farseers would remain a Warlock Conclave after the entire Warlock Conclave has been eliminated. It is pretty simple really.
Another example is 2 ICs who join a 3rd. Do you honestly think that the other 2 would retain the USRs of the 3rd IC even after he has been killed?
Of course they wouldn't retain any MODEL level rules that the IC confers to the Unit as a whole. Most Model level rules require that the Unit contain a model with said rule. If the model dies, the Unit no longer contains the model. They would retain any UNIT Level rules... which the average IC doesn't have any of. Unit level rules would be things like Formation special rules or Detachment command benefits. Mileage is going to vary based on the actual wording of the rules. We would need specific examples to discuss this further.
I have also read the rules. There is nothing in them that suggests the two remaining Farseers WOULDN'T remain part of the "Warlock Conclave Unit" after the Warlock Models have been removed as casualties. Look at it this way... per the IC rules, the two Farseers are a part of the "Warlock Conclave Unit" for all rules purposes. If the Farseers are part of the Unit, and the Warlock Models all die, are there any Models left in the "Warlock Conclave Unit"? YES. There are two... they both happen to be Farseer ICs, but the still count as a part of the unit for all rules purposes. The rules ONLY tell us to revert an IC back to his own unit (basically him by himself) once he's the LAST Model alive in a unit. In this case, neither IC is the last Model alive in the unit. Each IC looks at the other IC and says "Oh, look. There's another member of the Warlock Conclave Unit. I guess I still have the option of sticking around."
What you are saying would imply that in a kill points game you could say to your opponent "you don't get the kill point for killing this squad because it had two ICs in it and they are still alive so the unit is still alive". I don't think many people would accept that interpretation of the rules.
Disclaimer... this is not how I would play this. I am discussing the rules as written by Games Workshop.
BRB... Removed As A Casualty And Completely Destroyed Section - "When all of the models in a unit are removed as casualties, the unit is said to have been 'completely destroyed'."
BRB... Purge the Alien Mission Section - "At the end of the game, each player receives 1 Victory Point for each enemy unit that has been completely destroyed."
If you have a unit composed of a Tactical Squad, SM Captain and SM Libby and you get to a point where the Tactical Marines are all dead, you have two options.
Option #1... Choose to have either the Captain or the Libby leave the Unit. If you do so, the other IC becomes the last living model in the Unit and reverts back to his one Unit. The Tactical Squad has now been completely destroyed as there are no longer any remaining Models that haven't been removed as casualties. Your opponent scores a Victory Point. You now have two 'new' Units on the field for your opponent to potentially completely destroy.
Option #2... Choose to keep the Captain and the Libby together. As neither is the last Model in the 'Tactical Squad Unit', neither is forced to break off and revert to a single Model IC Unit. The 'Tactical Squad Unit' can't be said to have been completely destroyed as there are still living Models in the Unit. Your opponent does not score a Victory Point. There is only one Unit on the field that can be completely destroyed.
Please note, that in Option #2, if an opponent successfully kills IC #1, he scores a single Victory Point as he's only 'completely destroyed' a single unit. At the time of death that he's removed as a casualty, IC #1 was part of the 'Tactical Squad Unit' for all rules purposes, including scoring VPs. Once IC #2 is alone, he reverts to being his own Unit and becomes eligible to be completely destroyed. It's a weird rules interaction and isn't very intuitive.
Now again, this isn't how I play it. I don't think this is how most people play it. I think this is one of those issues like the psyker rules that just about everyone unknowingly house rules. BUT... it IS how the rules are written.
If you disagree, you need to find something in the rules that tell me the two Joined ICs are forcibly removed from the Unit when SOME of the other models die. I've been over the rules over and over and can't find anything. If you find something, please provide a citation.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As further evidence that I am correct, look at something like the Orks Green Tide Formation that says "The Green Tide counts as 11 units for Victory points if it is completely destroyed. " Under RaW, it would only count as 1 VP without this comment as it's only 1 Unit being completely destroyed.
You still have not showed anything that gives you permission to be a part of a unit that doesn't exist. How can you refer to any special rules anyway when you don't have any unit to refer to? There are so many holes in this line of thinking.
Explain to me why the unit doesn't exist.
Follow this logic.
1. Unit Alpha is composed of a Tactical Sargeant, 4 Tactical Marines, a Captain and a Librarian.
2. The unit undergoes a shooting attack and the Sarge and 4 Tac Marines die.
3a. The Captain looks around, sees the Librarian (who is currently a member of Unit Alpha for all rules purposes), realizes that he's not the last member and doesn't have to revert to being a lone "IC unit".
3b. The Librarian looks around, sees the Captain (who is currently a member of Unit Alpha for all rules purposes), realizes that he's not the last member and doesn't have to revert to being a lone "IC unit".
4. Unit Alpha remains in play and has not yet been completely destroyed as it has still living models who have not yet been removed as casualties.
You seem to think that only the Tactical Marines count as part of the unit and that when they're dead, the unit is completely destroyed. The rules do not support this. Attached ICs are considered members of the unit for all rules purposes and only split back off when they are the LAST model alive in the unit. If you have TWO or more ICs alive in a unit, no individual IC is ever the last model alive in the unit.
If the Captain in the above example is subsequently removed as a casualty, the Librarian becomes the last living model in the unit and reverts to being a lone "IC unit". At this point, Unit Alpha has been completely destroyed and the opponent scores 1 Victory Point. There is one unit left on the board that the opponent can potentially destroy (the Librarian).
If the Captain in the above example chooses to leave Unit Alpha by moving out of coherency, the Librarian becomes the last living model in the unit and reverts to being a lone "IC unit". At this point, Unit Alpha has been completely destroyed and the opponent scores 1 Victory Point. There are two units left on the board that the opponent can potentially destroy (the Captain and the Librarian).
Remember, Units on the table and Units in your army list are NOT THE SAME. Victory Points are awarded when a Unit on the table is completely destroyed. They are awarded at game end, but the trigger is that a unit be completely destroyed. Again, GW contradicts their own rules by telling us to remember that ICs are separate units. From a game perspective, a joined IC ISN'T a separate unit. From an army list perspective, it is.
Check out my website. Editorials! Tutorials! Fun Times To Be Had! - kriswallminis.com
Kriswall wrote: I didn't say it made sense, but ICs only leave units under two primary circumstances... When they leave willing by moving out of coherence and when they are the last living model in the unit. The rules don't give any direction for what happens when multiple ICs are the last living models in a unit. In the absence of any direction to leave the unit, they remain.
This has been hashed out multiple times and I don't feel like typing out the rules AGAIN. Feel free to read the IC rules in full. You won't find anything telling you that an IC automatically reverts to being his own unit if there are still other models alive in the unit, which there are... Remember that each IC sees the other ICs as members of the original unit, for all rules purposes. Strictly speaking, joined ICs would continue to benefit from unit level rules so long as at least two ICs live and the player never moves the out of coherency.
If you really need a rules quote, just go read the IC sections on joining and leaving units. It's all in there. I would challenge you to provide a rules quote saying that two ICs leave a unit if they are the last ones alive.
I have read the rules. There is nothing in them that suggests the two remaining Farseers would remain a Warlock Conclave after the entire Warlock Conclave has been eliminated. It is pretty simple really.
Another example is 2 ICs who join a 3rd. Do you honestly think that the other 2 would retain the USRs of the 3rd IC even after he has been killed?
Of course they wouldn't retain any MODEL level rules that the IC confers to the Unit as a whole. Most Model level rules require that the Unit contain a model with said rule. If the model dies, the Unit no longer contains the model. They would retain any UNIT Level rules... which the average IC doesn't have any of. Unit level rules would be things like Formation special rules or Detachment command benefits. Mileage is going to vary based on the actual wording of the rules. We would need specific examples to discuss this further.
I have also read the rules. There is nothing in them that suggests the two remaining Farseers WOULDN'T remain part of the "Warlock Conclave Unit" after the Warlock Models have been removed as casualties. Look at it this way... per the IC rules, the two Farseers are a part of the "Warlock Conclave Unit" for all rules purposes. If the Farseers are part of the Unit, and the Warlock Models all die, are there any Models left in the "Warlock Conclave Unit"? YES. There are two... they both happen to be Farseer ICs, but the still count as a part of the unit for all rules purposes. The rules ONLY tell us to revert an IC back to his own unit (basically him by himself) once he's the LAST Model alive in a unit. In this case, neither IC is the last Model alive in the unit. Each IC looks at the other IC and says "Oh, look. There's another member of the Warlock Conclave Unit. I guess I still have the option of sticking around."
What you are saying would imply that in a kill points game you could say to your opponent "you don't get the kill point for killing this squad because it had two ICs in it and they are still alive so the unit is still alive". I don't think many people would accept that interpretation of the rules.
Disclaimer... this is not how I would play this. I am discussing the rules as written by Games Workshop.
BRB... Removed As A Casualty And Completely Destroyed Section - "When all of the models in a unit are removed as casualties, the unit is said to have been 'completely destroyed'."
BRB... Purge the Alien Mission Section - "At the end of the game, each player receives 1 Victory Point for each enemy unit that has been completely destroyed."
If you have a unit composed of a Tactical Squad, SM Captain and SM Libby and you get to a point where the Tactical Marines are all dead, you have two options.
Option #1... Choose to have either the Captain or the Libby leave the Unit. If you do so, the other IC becomes the last living model in the Unit and reverts back to his one Unit. The Tactical Squad has now been completely destroyed as there are no longer any remaining Models that haven't been removed as casualties. Your opponent scores a Victory Point. You now have two 'new' Units on the field for your opponent to potentially completely destroy.
Option #2... Choose to keep the Captain and the Libby together. As neither is the last Model in the 'Tactical Squad Unit', neither is forced to break off and revert to a single Model IC Unit. The 'Tactical Squad Unit' can't be said to have been completely destroyed as there are still living Models in the Unit. Your opponent does not score a Victory Point. There is only one Unit on the field that can be completely destroyed.
Please note, that in Option #2, if an opponent successfully kills IC #1, he scores a single Victory Point as he's only 'completely destroyed' a single unit. At the time of death that he's removed as a casualty, IC #1 was part of the 'Tactical Squad Unit' for all rules purposes, including scoring VPs. Once IC #2 is alone, he reverts to being his own Unit and becomes eligible to be completely destroyed. It's a weird rules interaction and isn't very intuitive.
Now again, this isn't how I play it. I don't think this is how most people play it. I think this is one of those issues like the psyker rules that just about everyone unknowingly house rules. BUT... it IS how the rules are written.
If you disagree, you need to find something in the rules that tell me the two Joined ICs are forcibly removed from the Unit when SOME of the other models die. I've been over the rules over and over and can't find anything. If you find something, please provide a citation.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As further evidence that I am correct, look at something like the Orks Green Tide Formation that says "The Green Tide counts as 11 units for Victory points if it is completely destroyed. " Under RaW, it would only count as 1 VP without this comment as it's only 1 Unit being completely destroyed.
You still have not showed anything that gives you permission to be a part of a unit that doesn't exist. How can you refer to any special rules anyway when you don't have any unit to refer to? There are so many holes in this line of thinking.
Explain to me why the unit doesn't exist.
Follow this logic.
1. Unit Alpha is composed of a Tactical Sargeant, 4 Tactical Marines, a Captain and a Librarian.
2. The unit undergoes a shooting attack and the Sarge and 4 Tac Marines die.
3a. The Captain looks around, sees the Librarian (who is currently a member of Unit Alpha for all rules purposes), realizes that he's not the last member and doesn't have to revert to being a lone "IC unit".
3b. The Librarian looks around, sees the Captain (who is currently a member of Unit Alpha for all rules purposes), realizes that he's not the last member and doesn't have to revert to being a lone "IC unit".
4. Unit Alpha remains in play and has not yet been completely destroyed as it has still living models who have not yet been removed as casualties.
You seem to think that only the Tactical Marines count as part of the unit and that when they're dead, the unit is completely destroyed. The rules do not support this. Attached ICs are considered members of the unit for all rules purposes and only split back off when they are the LAST model alive in the unit. If you have TWO or more ICs alive in a unit, no individual IC is ever the last model alive in the unit.
If the Captain in the above example is subsequently removed as a casualty, the Librarian becomes the last living model in the unit and reverts to being a lone "IC unit". At this point, Unit Alpha has been completely destroyed and the opponent scores 1 Victory Point. There is one unit left on the board that the opponent can potentially destroy (the Librarian).
If the Captain in the above example chooses to leave Unit Alpha by moving out of coherency, the Librarian becomes the last living model in the unit and reverts to being a lone "IC unit". At this point, Unit Alpha has been completely destroyed and the opponent scores 1 Victory Point. There are two units left on the board that the opponent can potentially destroy (the Captain and the Librarian).
Remember, Units on the table and Units in your army list are NOT THE SAME. Victory Points are awarded when a Unit on the table is completely destroyed. They are awarded at game end, but the trigger is that a unit be completely destroyed. Again, GW contradicts their own rules by telling us to remember that ICs are separate units. From a game perspective, a joined IC ISN'T a separate unit. From an army list perspective, it is.
I do see how this works from a purely RAW viewpoint, definitely not HIWPI though. Just wondering what you think would happen RAW if these two moved out of coherency with each other (obviously not using the seer council example here), would you give away 0, 1, or 2 victory points?
Do they both look around and see that their unit is dead and both award a victory point, or do they both just think they have left the squad behind so neither of them award victory points?
I would look it up myself but I don't have my rulebook on me because I am currently at my university house and I keep all my warhammer at my parents' place as I don't play around here.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/05/05 21:50:44
Ulthwe: 7500 points 
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