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Can both of the farseers join another unit?
Yes, but they must also stay together.
Yes, and they can split into two different units.
No, but the final farseer can join units.
No they can never join another unit.

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Made in us
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity





East Coast, USA

roflmajog wrote:
 Kriswall wrote:
Spoiler:
 extremefreak17 wrote:
 Kriswall wrote:
roflmajog wrote:
 Kriswall wrote:
 extremefreak17 wrote:
 Kriswall wrote:
I didn't say it made sense, but ICs only leave units under two primary circumstances... When they leave willing by moving out of coherence and when they are the last living model in the unit. The rules don't give any direction for what happens when multiple ICs are the last living models in a unit. In the absence of any direction to leave the unit, they remain.

This has been hashed out multiple times and I don't feel like typing out the rules AGAIN. Feel free to read the IC rules in full. You won't find anything telling you that an IC automatically reverts to being his own unit if there are still other models alive in the unit, which there are... Remember that each IC sees the other ICs as members of the original unit, for all rules purposes. Strictly speaking, joined ICs would continue to benefit from unit level rules so long as at least two ICs live and the player never moves the out of coherency.

If you really need a rules quote, just go read the IC sections on joining and leaving units. It's all in there. I would challenge you to provide a rules quote saying that two ICs leave a unit if they are the last ones alive.


I have read the rules. There is nothing in them that suggests the two remaining Farseers would remain a Warlock Conclave after the entire Warlock Conclave has been eliminated. It is pretty simple really.

Another example is 2 ICs who join a 3rd. Do you honestly think that the other 2 would retain the USRs of the 3rd IC even after he has been killed?


Of course they wouldn't retain any MODEL level rules that the IC confers to the Unit as a whole. Most Model level rules require that the Unit contain a model with said rule. If the model dies, the Unit no longer contains the model. They would retain any UNIT Level rules... which the average IC doesn't have any of. Unit level rules would be things like Formation special rules or Detachment command benefits. Mileage is going to vary based on the actual wording of the rules. We would need specific examples to discuss this further.

I have also read the rules. There is nothing in them that suggests the two remaining Farseers WOULDN'T remain part of the "Warlock Conclave Unit" after the Warlock Models have been removed as casualties. Look at it this way... per the IC rules, the two Farseers are a part of the "Warlock Conclave Unit" for all rules purposes. If the Farseers are part of the Unit, and the Warlock Models all die, are there any Models left in the "Warlock Conclave Unit"? YES. There are two... they both happen to be Farseer ICs, but the still count as a part of the unit for all rules purposes. The rules ONLY tell us to revert an IC back to his own unit (basically him by himself) once he's the LAST Model alive in a unit. In this case, neither IC is the last Model alive in the unit. Each IC looks at the other IC and says "Oh, look. There's another member of the Warlock Conclave Unit. I guess I still have the option of sticking around."



What you are saying would imply that in a kill points game you could say to your opponent "you don't get the kill point for killing this squad because it had two ICs in it and they are still alive so the unit is still alive". I don't think many people would accept that interpretation of the rules.


Disclaimer... this is not how I would play this. I am discussing the rules as written by Games Workshop.

BRB... Removed As A Casualty And Completely Destroyed Section - "When all of the models in a unit are removed as casualties, the unit is said to have been 'completely destroyed'."

BRB... Purge the Alien Mission Section - "At the end of the game, each player receives 1 Victory Point for each enemy unit that has been completely destroyed."

If you have a unit composed of a Tactical Squad, SM Captain and SM Libby and you get to a point where the Tactical Marines are all dead, you have two options.

Option #1... Choose to have either the Captain or the Libby leave the Unit. If you do so, the other IC becomes the last living model in the Unit and reverts back to his one Unit. The Tactical Squad has now been completely destroyed as there are no longer any remaining Models that haven't been removed as casualties. Your opponent scores a Victory Point. You now have two 'new' Units on the field for your opponent to potentially completely destroy.

Option #2... Choose to keep the Captain and the Libby together. As neither is the last Model in the 'Tactical Squad Unit', neither is forced to break off and revert to a single Model IC Unit. The 'Tactical Squad Unit' can't be said to have been completely destroyed as there are still living Models in the Unit. Your opponent does not score a Victory Point. There is only one Unit on the field that can be completely destroyed.

Please note, that in Option #2, if an opponent successfully kills IC #1, he scores a single Victory Point as he's only 'completely destroyed' a single unit. At the time of death that he's removed as a casualty, IC #1 was part of the 'Tactical Squad Unit' for all rules purposes, including scoring VPs. Once IC #2 is alone, he reverts to being his own Unit and becomes eligible to be completely destroyed. It's a weird rules interaction and isn't very intuitive.

Now again, this isn't how I play it. I don't think this is how most people play it. I think this is one of those issues like the psyker rules that just about everyone unknowingly house rules. BUT... it IS how the rules are written.

If you disagree, you need to find something in the rules that tell me the two Joined ICs are forcibly removed from the Unit when SOME of the other models die. I've been over the rules over and over and can't find anything. If you find something, please provide a citation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As further evidence that I am correct, look at something like the Orks Green Tide Formation that says "The Green Tide counts as 11 units for Victory points if it is completely destroyed. " Under RaW, it would only count as 1 VP without this comment as it's only 1 Unit being completely destroyed.

You still have not showed anything that gives you permission to be a part of a unit that doesn't exist. How can you refer to any special rules anyway when you don't have any unit to refer to? There are so many holes in this line of thinking.


Explain to me why the unit doesn't exist.

Follow this logic.

1. Unit Alpha is composed of a Tactical Sargeant, 4 Tactical Marines, a Captain and a Librarian.
2. The unit undergoes a shooting attack and the Sarge and 4 Tac Marines die.
3a. The Captain looks around, sees the Librarian (who is currently a member of Unit Alpha for all rules purposes), realizes that he's not the last member and doesn't have to revert to being a lone "IC unit".
3b. The Librarian looks around, sees the Captain (who is currently a member of Unit Alpha for all rules purposes), realizes that he's not the last member and doesn't have to revert to being a lone "IC unit".
4. Unit Alpha remains in play and has not yet been completely destroyed as it has still living models who have not yet been removed as casualties.

You seem to think that only the Tactical Marines count as part of the unit and that when they're dead, the unit is completely destroyed. The rules do not support this. Attached ICs are considered members of the unit for all rules purposes and only split back off when they are the LAST model alive in the unit. If you have TWO or more ICs alive in a unit, no individual IC is ever the last model alive in the unit.

If the Captain in the above example is subsequently removed as a casualty, the Librarian becomes the last living model in the unit and reverts to being a lone "IC unit". At this point, Unit Alpha has been completely destroyed and the opponent scores 1 Victory Point. There is one unit left on the board that the opponent can potentially destroy (the Librarian).

If the Captain in the above example chooses to leave Unit Alpha by moving out of coherency, the Librarian becomes the last living model in the unit and reverts to being a lone "IC unit". At this point, Unit Alpha has been completely destroyed and the opponent scores 1 Victory Point. There are two units left on the board that the opponent can potentially destroy (the Captain and the Librarian).

Remember, Units on the table and Units in your army list are NOT THE SAME. Victory Points are awarded when a Unit on the table is completely destroyed. They are awarded at game end, but the trigger is that a unit be completely destroyed. Again, GW contradicts their own rules by telling us to remember that ICs are separate units. From a game perspective, a joined IC ISN'T a separate unit. From an army list perspective, it is.


I do see how this works from a purely RAW viewpoint, definitely not HIWPI though. Just wondering what you think would happen RAW if these two moved out of coherency with each other (obviously not using the seer council example here), would you give away 0, 1, or 2 victory points?
Do they both look around and see that their unit is dead and both award a victory point, or do they both just think they have left the squad behind so neither of them award victory points?
I would look it up myself but I don't have my rulebook on me because I am currently at my university house and I keep all my warhammer at my parents' place as I don't play around here.


Assuming the Captain and Librarian are the last two members of Unit Alpha...

Per the BRB... "An Independent Character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of unit coherency with it." If the Captain chooses to leave Unit Alpha, then Unit Alpha is left with only the Librarian. Again, per the BRB... "If an Independent Character joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase." At the start of the Psychic phase (the following phase), the Librarian becomes a unit of one model since all of the other models in the unit have been killed. The Captain is no longer counted as part of the unit since he used his IC rules to leave the unit. Hence, at the start of the Psychic phase, you have three unit scenarios. You have a unit consisting of the Captain, you have a unit consisting of the Librarian and you have Unit Alpha... which has been completely destroyed as all of its models have been removed as casualties. The opponent would receive one Victory Point for Unit Alpha with two potential target units remaining on the board.

If the Librarian chooses to leave Unit Alpha, do the exact same thing, excepting that the Captain becomes a unit of one model at the start of the Psychic phase instead.

Also, it's important to note that two ICs joined in a single unit can't ever "move out of coherency with each other". One IC leaves the unit and then the other IC reverts to being his own unit at the start of the following phase. There isn't much of a practical difference 99% of the time, but if there are weird unit level rules in play, it makes a difference as to which IC is doing the leaving.

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Widnes UK

What if they both join another unit then? As neither of them is the last in the squad neither of them reverts to being a single IC so the unit never counts as dying, if I understand what you have said correctly.

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East Coast, USA

roflmajog wrote:
What if they both join another unit then? As neither of them is the last in the squad neither of them reverts to being a single IC so the unit never counts as dying, if I understand what you have said correctly.


I don't think you're understanding.

In your scenario, which models from Unit Alpha are still living? Remember that per your scenario, the two ICs have joined a new unit that we will call Unit Beta.

To answer, no models from Unit Alpha are still living. The unit has been completely destroyed. ICs can only ever belong to one unit at a time. If they move into coherency with Unit Beta and join it, they count as a part of it for all rules purposes. They are no longer a part of Unit Alpha.

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Confessor Of Sins





Newton Aycliffe

 Kriswall wrote:
Again, GW contradicts their own rules by telling us to remember that ICs are separate units. From a game perspective, a joined IC ISN'T a separate unit. From an army list perspective, it is.


I was not participating in the the discussion about Farseers because, as i've already said, ICs joining units can be horribly game-breaking by RaW....

But from a RaW point of view, the calculation of victory points is well defined. As such, i would amend your statement (by RaW):
"From a game perspective, a joined IC ISN'T a separate unit. From an army list perspective, it is. From a Victory Point calculation perspective, it is.

In your example, the Librarian not leaving the captain would indeed mean that Squad Alpha might not be completely wiped out (i do not really want to discuss this part).
But when you reach the "End game" and calculating VPs, you follow the RaW given then:
"Remember that Independent Characters and Dedicated Transports are individual units and award Victory Points if they are destroyed."

This is mission specific, but in that mission, Alpha Squad will award 1 VP for being destroyed, 2 if one of the ICs died too.

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Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage.
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It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass. 
   
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East Coast, USA

I think the real core of the issue is that units are completely destroyed DURING a game. Victory Points at the END of the game based on which units were completely destroyed. The number of units can vary between during and after. The rules also create scenarios where a unit has not been completely destroyed from a game standpoint, but all of the models in the army list entry are dead.

Bad rules are bad. Work it out with your friends. The IC rules AND the VP rules need to be rewritten. VPs for completely destroying units should be granted as the units are destroyed and not later.

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Made in gb
Confessor Of Sins





Newton Aycliffe

 Kriswall wrote:
I think the real core of the issue is that units are completely destroyed DURING a game. Victory Points at the END of the game based on which units were completely destroyed. The number of units can vary between during and after. The rules also create scenarios where a unit has not been completely destroyed from a game standpoint, but all of the models in the army list entry are dead.

Bad rules are bad. Work it out with your friends. The IC rules AND the VP rules need to be rewritten. VPs for completely destroying units should be granted as the units are destroyed and not later.


The only VP that could currently be contended is First blood, as it requires timing rather than an "end of game Check"

I think the VP rules aren't too bad... There is only 1 rule that needs re-writing:
While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.


This 1 rule has broken many others, and created more than 1 issue, usually 20 pages of discussion in each...
Some recents ones:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/628926.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/620243.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/612847.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/594670.page


DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage.
Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass. 
   
 
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