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A friend asked me to post this Up for him.

Hi
I got serious problems with my eldar to stand Up against a BA Army i often face.
We Play at 2000 points level.
He will always bring the Formation with the three stormravens that allow a Charge from deepstrike.
The other points go into a 15 man deathcompany squad with magister sevrin loth and several other cc units.
Whatever i bring i get charged.
My wraithknight gets charged by DC gets hit by 75 attacks and dies...
My jetbikes if i bring em en mass also get charged...
I have no counter to this guaranted cc deathstar.
Any ideas?

My typical eldar strategy is to bring a lot of shooty and keep it well spaced out.

Don't try to stop him from charging you, cause you won't succeed, get him to charge the units you care about least, let him wipe them in CC then focus fire on the now exposed CC deathstar... saturate them with enough fire and you will end up killing far more points than they can kill in CC.

Vaulth's Wrath Support Batteries are an excellent choice for this strategy cause they can deal a lot of damage, and are very hard to kill with shooting, but fold instantly in CC, so if they get charge they are written off immediately. Allowing a major counter strike with your other units.

You beat that formation in initial deployment.

#1 - Take more in Reserves. He can't charge what's not on the board. Note, if you have nothing on the table at the end of the turn, you'll lose the game. A neat trick is to just take a vehicle with infantry in it, maybe a Wave Serpent that you stick in some heavy cover. So long as it's not blown up in the shooting phase, in the assault phase he can only charge the vehicle. When it dies, the guys inside will come out but be impossible to charge (since all charges have already happened). Then your reserves come in and he's out of position.

#2 - Take Wraithguards with D-Scythes. This will earn you a lot of hate, but if it's your only way of surviving, then you've been backed into a corner. The wall of death these things will bring is insane.

#3 - Intermix your infantry together If it's impossible for him to charge without coming within 1" of your other unit, then he'll need to declare a charge against both. Double check this as I haven't double-charged in a long time, but I'm pretty sure you lose all your charging bonuses for doing so.

#4 - "Bubble Wrap" your important stuff with less important units. He can only charge what he can reach.

Hope these help!

Reserves are risky because you to hit very hard on the turn after he comes in.

If Stormravens are part of the formation, a Serpent wont protect the squad from a charge. Otherwise, the above is pretty good advice.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
If Stormravens are part of the formation, a Serpent wont protect the squad from a charge. Otherwise, the above is pretty good advice.

Meh? Stormravens are surprisingly poor at fragging WS.

Allright, curious to try this:

HQ:
Autarch with Banshee Mask, Skyrunner, Shard of Anaris

Elite:
5 Wraithguards with D-Scythes in a Wave Serpent
5 Wraithguards with D-Scythes in a Wave Serpent

Troops:
5 Windriders with Scatter Laser
5 Windriders with Scatter Laser

Fast:
Crimson Hunter
Hemlock Wraithfighter
6 Warp Spiders + Exarch

Heavy:
4 Dark Reapers with Starshot + Exarch with Missile Launcher

Lord of War
Wraithknight

Fortification:
Aegis Defense Line with Icarus lascannon

Granted it requires a bit of luck BUT...You could potentially kill off one Stormraven before it disembarks it's troops. Two shots of Lascannon at BS 5 can screw up someone's plans big time.

So you put your Aegis line near your edge. Wraithknight in it or next to it. Bubble wrap the Aegis with your Wraithguards/Wave Serpents

The Crimson Hunter will try and clear the skies for you. The Hemlock will drop some D blasts onto that pesky infantry.

Warp Spiders are there for trolling factor

As much as I like the Formation, it's still not game breaking enough to get around basic defensive maneuvers such as "bubble wrap" and "spread the heck out so he can't assault everything important in your army."

Question: The Blood Angel player is only assaulting after deep strike when the deep striking unit arrives within 12" of TWO of the homing beacons, correct?

Problem with killing the deathstar by shooting is invisibility from sevrin.
U cant D what you cant see.
His List normally looks something like this

Elites
Death Company Squad
15x Death Company Marine
Troops
Tactical Squad
Flamer, Heavy flamer, 9x Tactical Marine
Tactical Sergeant
2x Hand Flamer
Tactical Squad
Flamer, Heavy flamer, 9x Tactical Marine
Tactical Sergeant
2x Hand Flamer
Tactical Squad
Flamer, Heavy flamer, 9x Tactical Marine
Tactical Sergeant
2x Hand Flamer
Heavy Support
Stormraven Gunship
Twin Linked Assault Cannon, Twin-linked Multi-melta
Stormraven Gunship
Twin Linked Assault Cannon, Twin-linked Multi-melta
Stormraven Gunship
Twin Linked Assault Cannon, Twin-linked Multi-melta
Lords of War
Cerastus Knight-Lancer
Space Marines: Codex (2013) (Allied Detachment)
HQ
Magister Sevrin Loth *
Troops
Scout Squad
4x Scouts, 4x Sniper Rifle
Scout Sergeant
Sniper Rifle

What about extreme MSU? If he can charge whatever he wants, perhaps instead of trying to be too tough, you just don't give him a good target?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Even with Invis, D-scythes still get D3 hits on Overwatch.

Sounds like the list posted by Erik_Morkai with the suggested tactics would work very well against that. There's very little anti-tank firepower in your opponent's list, and the multi-meltas are nearly useless against a Serpent Shield reducing all those penetrating hits down to glancing (if they aren't already ignored by cover or holo-fields). Then the D-Scythe Wraiths go to town annihilating units. If you're in flamer range, he's in flamer range.

Martel732 wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
If Stormravens are part of the formation, a Serpent wont protect the squad from a charge. Otherwise, the above is pretty good advice.

Meh? Stormravens are surprisingly poor at fragging WS.

I assumed a combination of reserved units and those deployed protected by Serpents. Minimal serpents and multiple Ravens. Wouldn't be my first pick to pop a serpent, but AssCan + MM + Missiles has a shot at it. Math escapes me at the moment, posting from work.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
If Stormravens are part of the formation, a Serpent wont protect the squad from a charge. Otherwise, the above is pretty good advice.

Meh? Stormravens are surprisingly poor at fragging WS.

I assumed a combination of reserved units and those deployed protected by Serpents. Minimal serpents and multiple Ravens. Wouldn't be my first pick to pop a serpent, but AssCan + MM + Missiles has a shot at it. Math escapes me at the moment, posting from work.

Not a very good one.

Fliers can shoot, what, 4 weapons after moving? plus POTMS? (Don't have a Raven myself)

AC: TL?
AC: 4x(8/9)(1/6)(1/2) = 32/108 pens
MM: 1x(8/9)(11/12)(1/2) = 44/108 pens/glances
Missilex3: 3x(2/3)(1/2)(1/2) = 6/12 pens/glances

Anything wrong with those numbers?

So each Storm Raven does 1.2 HP

With 3, they'll easily pop one of your Serpents, and force the other to jink, if that's what they go after.

But next game you might see some more antitank in his list...

Use reserves.
Use your couple free turns to send units all over the board away from the ravens. Back in his deployment zone for example. If you have units 12" or more away from the farthest point that is within 12" of two ravens, they can't be assaulted.
If you shoot down two ravens, he will cry, because you just won.
If his ravens fail to come on turn 1, his entire battle plan goes out.

It is a pretty good formation, but it has some exploitable weaknesses, and some luck based ones.

It's pretty similar to combo decks in magic. He doesn't really care what you have and what you're doing with it barring a few tactics. He just wants his combo to go off and potentially win him the game.

Bharring wrote:
Fliers can shoot, what, 4 weapons after moving? plus POTMS? (Don't have a Raven myself)

AC: TL?
AC: 4x(8/9)(1/6)(1/2) = 32/108 pens
MM: 1x(8/9)(11/12)(1/2) = 44/108 pens/glances
Missilex3: 3x(2/3)(1/2)(1/2) = 6/12 pens/glances

Anything wrong with those numbers?

So each Storm Raven does 1.2 HP

With 3, they'll easily pop one of your Serpents, and force the other to jink, if that's what they go after.

But next game you might see some more antitank in his list...

Having to use three ravens to down a single serpent is INCREDIBLY inefficient.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

niv-mizzet wrote:
Use reserves.
Use your couple free turns to send units all over the board away from the ravens. Back in his deployment zone for example. If you have units 12" or more away from the farthest point that is within 12" of two ravens, they can't be assaulted.
If you shoot down two ravens, he will cry, because you just won.
If his ravens fail to come on turn 1, his entire battle plan goes out.

It is a pretty good formation, but it has some exploitable weaknesses, and some luck based ones.

It's pretty similar to combo decks in magic. He doesn't really care what you have and what you're doing with it barring a few tactics. He just wants his combo to go off and potentially win him the game.

This formation is the most epic fail of all epic fails against SW. I won't use it for that reason alone. I refuse to be helpless against that codex. Being rolled over by Eldar because reasons known only to GW is insulting enough.

Well yeah. But who does that?

If the Ravens get rear armor, its a whole different story (cliffnotes - dead Serpents, easily), but they'll kill reapers and/or bikes (and do well at it) if the Serpents hide. And a hiding Serpent with Wraithguard means Wraithguard aren't killing anything.

If the player needs the Serpents dead, and somehow can't get rear armor, he'll probably sacrifice a Tac squad to do it in CC. Sure, the Wraithguad then barbeque a Tac squad next turn, but the Serpent is dead and the Wraithguard are slow with very short range.

There are several major ways to beat that formation. Especially with that list.

The key points to taking down that list will be;
1) Kill the knight lancer early. This will give you the space and board control you need to mitigate the effect of the Death Company unit when it comes on from reserves turn 2+. That unit is slow enough and small enough you can largely relegate it to being meaningless with good play.
2) Spread out so you cannot be multicharged. That big Death Company unit costs so much that it it kills 1 units worth 100 pts a turn for the entire game it will have been a huge gain for the CWE player.
3) You can bring more warp charges than the SM player. As a CWE player you can bring the 15+ warp charges to the table that you would want to stop invisibility from going off. Remember that you get to reroll your roll to deny (farseers are definitely the best psykers in the game). Only use this strategy if you were planning to take a psyker heavy army anyways though. Frankly the Death Company units is easier to just mitigate than to bother blocking invisibility.
4) Buff up your wraithknight so when it gets into melee with the Death Company it doesn't die. Stomps are not a bad way to kill invisible deathstars. If you can fortune or invisible your wraithknight the Death Company rather than get charged you will cause a lot of damage. Also if the Death Company doesn't get the charge Str4 attacks are not going to do anything to a T8 wraithknight. There is no excuse for a wraithknight to get charged by a unit with 6" movement.
5) The best way to kill the invisible Death Company will actually be guided scatter laser warwalker or windrider units. They are cheap and each unit will put out ~2 dead Death Company a turn. The starcannon warwalkers actually do this better but are less TAC.
6) If you cannot out maneuver the stormravens then play a reserve game. You will need an autarch though to help manipulate reserves. This is just an alternative way to play the spread out and mitigate the Death Company Deathstar tactic.

Just had a Play with the advised List.
I Proxied the reapers cause i dont Own the Models.
The Game Used maelstrom rules where you gain more objectives in later game.
He started with only the Knight on the table.
He Used not an lancer but a acheron.
I Spreaded out aus advised
Main problem was that the pressure from he hellstorm Template was causing alot of pressure.
He moved 12 inches and with flanking speed moved another 6
I Shot he thing with everything available and managed to Strip 3 hullpoints...
Bad Rolling from me.
Turn two his formation came in.
He dropped the tacs on 2 objectives and the third next to my reapers.
Deathcompany with Jump packs and Severin dropped next to my warlord unit.
I banned invis.
He charged my warlord unit with the dc, killing it, they the acheron Shot the template weapon on my Other bikes, killing all but 1 , failing morale and running.
Acheron charged he wraithknight causing 3 d hits Rolling two 6es and a 4...
Poor knight.
At this Point he had first blood, slay the warlord and 2 objectives
My turn my Flyers came in, destroying one raven and stripping hp from another.
Guard Shot deathcompanY, Rolling Bad for d hits and killing 6.
Serpents shot kills 2 dc spiders shoting was very ineffective.
Next Turn a ravens Pops a serpents from rear armor.
Tacs charge reapers Rolling a fething 12.
Acheron Shots spiders and charges the Guard.
These
strip 2 hp in overwatch.
He then stomps them to death.
In my turn i kill the acheron with the Other guards, killing dc except a fist and sevrin.
Flyers kill a raven Other raven jinks.
Scatterbikes kill the tac squad.
In his turn the remaining tacs Open Fire on the bikes, killing 4.
Sevrin charges the Guard and... Survives overwatch due to incredible saves with his Special armor.
Force weapon is charged and he kills guard, Forgot to mention that he psychic shrieked em before...
Other tacs kill Hunter with skyfire objective.
I had hemlock, a Spider and 1 bike left and called it a day an this Point.maybe i have to Test this List more

What you're facing is ugly, but your dice hate you.

Bharring wrote:
What you're facing is ugly, but your dice hate you.

It's not that bad at all. They're just BA. Overcosted, underpowered.

I'd like to point out that the BA list posted is illegal; there is no BA HQ choice included.

If the BA Tacs+Ravens are all part of a Formation, and that's the only BA contribution, then it's still illegal as the BA "assault from DS" formation does not permit the inclusion of Elites/LoW choices.

Sevrin Loth also can't join Jump Infantry, AFAIK, as he doesn't have a Jump Pack. Which also means that he can't DS in with them.

Also, a Farseer is a better choice than a Banshee Mask Autarch, IMO, as the Farseer can provide very good DtW. The BA player seemingly has Loth, and only Loth, for psychic support; a Farseer with some Warlocks should provide enough WC to deny Invis pretty easily.

Think maybe your friend's opponent is cheating. Also, he (the friend) seems like he's just not that great, because Eldar should absolutely crush BA.

Just keep playing, you've got a 20% chance to take out that Knight in the first turn with just you are Wraithknight from a D"6". 36% by the second turn. And a 49% chance by the 3rd turn. So in half your games the Wraithknight should take out the opposing Knight in three turns of shooting by rolling a "6". Not to mention what rolling a D3HP is doing in the meantime.

As everything else is in reserve you have literally a 20% chance of outright winning the game by sudden death victory every game. Roll a 6 on the first turn, he picks up his Knight and loses by not having any models on the table at the end of Game Turn 1.

And is he able to Assault from DS when Loth is not part of the Formation which allows it? Shouldn't be able to. No Hammer of Wrath attacks or reroll charge distance either, entire unit "must always use the same form of movement".

Whiskey144 wrote:
I'd like to point out that the BA list posted is illegal; there is no BA HQ choice included.

If the BA Tacs+Ravens are all part of a Formation, and that's the only BA contribution, then it's still illegal as the BA "assault from DS" formation does not permit the inclusion of Elites/LoW choices.

Sevrin Loth also can't join Jump Infantry, AFAIK, as he doesn't have a Jump Pack. Which also means that he can't DS in with them.

Also, a Farseer is a better choice than a Banshee Mask Autarch, IMO, as the Farseer can provide very good DtW. The BA player seemingly has Loth, and only Loth, for psychic support; a Farseer with some Warlocks should provide enough WC to deny Invis pretty easily.

Think maybe your friend's opponent is cheating. Also, he (the friend) seems like he's just not that great, because Eldar should absolutely crush BA.

Exactly! The tac squads and Ravens are separate; you can't use them to satisfy slots in a CAD as they are a detachment in and of themselves. Ditch Loth, and have a minimal CAD or Baal strike force to added the DC squad and grab a LoW if he really wants it.

Play him again would be my suggestion.

I think there's rules issues all over the place.

I'm pretty sure the farseers re rolls for deny the witch only work if he's the target. So they most definitely won't work for invisibility.

Also, you mentioned he 'rolled badly with his wraith cannons and only killed 6 death company'. How many Wraithguard in the squad? If it's 5, then they can only kill 5 a turn anyway, you don't add all the wounds together and distribute them. You roll per model wounded and they suffer D3, or 6 +D6 wounds. You don't roll all your D3's and add them all together. Of course if they're scythes then I feel for you.

My friend plays some very strong blood angels. I play some semi strong eldar. If I play hard, and the lore of averages is fair, then I win. You're friend sounds like he needs some practice with eldar.

 Zagman wrote:
Just keep playing, you've got a 20% chance to take out that Knight in the first turn with just you are Wraithknight from a D"6". 36% by the second turn. And a 49% chance by the 3rd turn. So in half your games the Wraithknight should take out the opposing Knight in three turns of shooting by rolling a "6". Not to mention what rolling a D3HP is doing in the meantime.

As everything else is in reserve you have literally a 20% chance of outright winning the game by sudden death victory every game. Roll a 6 on the first turn, he picks up his Knight and loses by not having any models on the table at the end of Game Turn 1.

And is he able to Assault from DS when Loth is not part of the Formation which allows it? Shouldn't be able to. No Hammer of Wrath attacks or reroll charge distance either, entire unit "must always use the same form of movement".

IIRC the DS-assault formation doesn't apply the bonus to the Tac squads in the formation, but instead provides a bonus so that things which DS within (I believe) 6" of either the Tacs or Ravens is allowed to assault that turn.

However, it does bring up an interesting point- is it even legal for Loth to benefit from that?

jpevansiii wrote:
Exactly! The tac squads and Ravens are separate; you can't use them to satisfy slots in a CAD as they are a detachment in and of themselves. Ditch Loth, and have a minimal CAD or Baal strike force to added the DC squad and grab a LoW if he really wants it.

The BA detachment is the illegal one; the Allied CAD of vanilla Marines is legal (so long as the Scouts aren't equipped with Camo-Cloaks*). Loth is there to provide guaranteed Invis, since he can choose his powers rather than rolling for them.

But yes, overall, his army would actually be Unbound and therefore cannot gain any command benefits (and I believe that that also covers formation benefits).

*Loth is a Red Scorpions character, thus requiring Red Scorpions Chapter Tactics. The Red Scorpions Chapter Tactics prohibit the use of camo-cloaks.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I think there's rules issues all over the place.

I'm pretty sure the farseers re rolls for deny the witch only work if he's the target. So they most definitely won't work for invisibility.

Also, you mentioned he 'rolled badly with his wraith cannons and only killed 6 death company'. How many Wraithguard in the squad? If it's 5, then they can only kill 5 a turn anyway, you don't add all the wounds together and distribute them. You roll per model wounded and they suffer D3, or 6 +D6 wounds. You don't roll all your D3's and add them all together. Of course if they're scythes then I feel for you.

My friend plays some very strong blood angels. I play some semi strong eldar. If I play hard, and the lore of averages is fair, then I win. You're friend sounds like he needs some practice with eldar.

Loth is ML3, and a Farseer can (AFAIK) be easily and cheaply made ML3 as well. Additionally, since Loth is the only Librarian in the army (and therefore cannot leech WC off of other psykers), a Farseer with ML3 has good probability to just out-dice Invis and Deny that way.

So my suggestion wasn't about "Farseers can re-roll DtW", so much as "Farseers can be used to DtW". Even with a fairly average roll of 3-4, plus the respective MLs involved, you've got good odds, I think, to deny Invis outright.

Even if you can use Runes against a Blessing, you still need, on average, more than half again as many dice for an even chance (50-50) to deny.

If you can't, you need exactly 3 times as many dice for an even chance.

I'd focus on Invis going off.

(Farseers are always ML3)

So the BA player cheated. Intentionally or not it does help to explain the situation. This is one of my biggest problems with 7th, it is so damn hard to determine if your opponent's list is legal anymore without doing homework.