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Shoot, charge stomp. End of thread.

Seriously though, we got some good new knights, options and formations.

What's everyone's thoughts on the meltagun vs the stubber? Is it worth the extra 5 points?

What's your go-to carapace weapon, or leave all of them at home?

Spam the same knight or take complementing Knight variants?

Personally, I only have 2 Knights (1 "old" box, 1 new) and am strongly considering a backfield Crusader with battle cannon and krak missiles to lay down heavy fire for an Knight Errant to charge all the things.

Or would it make more sense to make both Knights more versatile and run one Paladin and one Warden, that way my opponent can't pick on the knight that threatens them the most?

Reaper chainsword versus the thunderstrike gauntlet... throwing stuff is fun but is it worth 10pts and swinging last? Having a hard time justifying the gauntlet on anything other than the Errant for obvious reasons.

The meltagun is bad, don't do it. The Stubber is there to ping for charging, the Meltagun will just increase your charge distance.

The Gaunlet is interesting, but not 10pts interesting. I can see taking one in a group of Knights, but not more than one.

Errants, Wardens, and Thermal Crusaders are pretty good to group up. Paladins match up better with Batcan Crusaders. The Krak launcher is great, the Icarus is also great, but the barrage launcher seem like a dud.

The Gallant is an interesting unit. You need it for the points reduction so you can take carapace weapons and still field a good 1500-1850 point Knight army. Also, the Gallant with Krak launcher benefits the most for being a character, so looks good as your warlord/Baron. However, it's vulnerable until it gets into CC.

SJ

The meltagun is bad, don't do it. The Stubber is there to ping for charging, the Meltagun will just increase your charge distance.

The meltagun is not bad. It just depends on which variant and how you want to round your points out.
Of course knights who want to close the gap faster than others benefit the most from it.

A gallant benefits greatly from having a meltagun, as it allows the potential to pop a transport vehicle and then charge the unit inside. Also, the low range is a non-issue, as the gallant will be running unless it is in charge range anyway. Vs most infantry models the meltagun is not much more dangerous than a heavy stubber, so I don't think taking yourself out of charge range is a valid concern.

I would only take the gauntlet on a gallant. Having a chainsword too allows it to pick the initiative vaule it needs. Other knights may be hurting themselves by lowing their own initiative against the wrong opponent.

Will anybody take a warden? I have a feeling most knights will be crusaders and paladins from now on, possibly with an errant or two to hit points limits.

I like the fist when paired with the Avenger, the Avenger is great against infantry and the fist is great against tanks. The fist is clearly meant to take out stuff that can't hit you back, i.e., vehicles, as the chainsword is better at dealing with infantry but that hurl is just too much fun and a two for one attack in CC, you don't get many of those. In a low model count army you want the option to be able to damage as many units at once otherwise you can run out of turns and being able to attack two units with just one CC phase is great. Assaulting things like a 'fex or a wraithknightis just a chump move with the fist

I've brought another four knights to go with the 9 I have already (one of each FW, two of the paladin and errant each), I'm planning on building a Gallant, a Warden and 2 Crusaders. The Warden will help out my Castigator, Warden for anti tank in CC and the Castigator for anti infantry in CC with more than enough shots to decimate infantry. Pair up a pair of Crusaders with the big melta then you've even more shots and plenty of anti heavy tank with enough points left for the melta, pod and missile upgrades?

On the Crusader I think the big melta better fits the Avenger as the Avenger will force you to be in a little closer, but that does mean you are better off with the melta rather than the stubber, you can still ping stuff with the melta for assault, the Crusader isn't horrible at CC, just not as good as the other variants so late game it'll help finish stuff off.

Seems like the meltagun would be the better option on every knight except the paladin and the crusader as they're going to be sitting back more than getting up in someone's face.

Seems like the errant and the gallant will be better with the meltagun as the errant's range is short on its main gun (and it matches the type of duty the big gun is doing) and the gallant wants to charge anyway. The warden is kind of the "in between" and will probably work either way.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
The meltagun is not bad. It just depends on which variant and how you want to round your points out.

The meltagun is generally bad. The Melta rule kicks in at 6 in, the weapon mount is 5 in from the ground. So most of your shooting with it will just be a single S8 AP1 shot, unless you're shooting at something tall.

 greyknight12 wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
The meltagun is not bad. It just depends on which variant and how you want to round your points out.

The meltagun is generally bad. The Melta rule kicks in at 6 in, the weapon mount is 5 in from the ground. So most of your shooting with it will just be a single S8 AP1 shot, unless you're shooting at something tall.

Str 8 ap1 isn't all that bad. Melta rule or not. Is the heavy stubber it replaces doing something more significant?

All the stubber and the melta will usually used for is tagging a target for a charge. For 5 points its a change that most of the time won't have much of an effect, but could occasionally pop a vehicle. If you have the points to spare then I don't see any harm in taking it.

As said, I can see use for it on a gallant, letting it pop a transport vehicle before a charge.

The chances of popping a transport with a single S8 AP1 hit are about 18%, IIRC. Even if you already hit the same vehicle with the Thermal Cannon (~25% to pop), you are still left with at least 1HP. So I guess you hit it with you trusty Krak launcher?

You just used 3 weapons to kill a Rhino, congratulations! Now go get stuck in melee!

The Stubber shines over the Meltagun because it lets you select another target in case your main target did not die, or if your main target was not in charge range. The Meltagun requires you to be almost balls deep in a unit that you can charge anyway, limiting your options from attacking more the one target each turn to focusing on a single target every turn. That kind of defeats the whole point of being a SHV.

Yes, there is a good argument for the Meltagun on Gallants and Crusaders, as the Gallant wants to be in CC while the Crusader might need to break something close. However, if I can save 5pts on a functionally useless upgrade, I probably will.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The chances of popping a transport with a single S8 AP1 hit are about 18%, IIRC. Even if you already hit the same vehicle with the Thermal Cannon (~25% to pop), you are still left with at least 1HP. So I guess you hit it with you trusty Krak launcher?

You just used 3 weapons to kill a Rhino, congratulations! Now go get stuck in melee!

The Stubber shines over the Meltagun because it lets you select another target in case your main target did not die, or if your main target was not in charge range. The Meltagun requires you to be almost balls deep in a unit that you can charge anyway, limiting your options from attacking more the one target each turn to focusing on a single target every turn. That kind of defeats the whole point of being a SHV.

Yes, there is a good argument for the Meltagun on Gallants and Crusaders, as the Gallant wants to be in CC while the Crusader might need to break something close. However, if I can save 5pts on a functionally useless upgrade, I probably will.

SJ

If you cannot kill a rhino with shooting, then you are forced to spend another turn to deal with the guys inside, so having another weapon to potentially pop the tank can be worth the 5 points.

The meltagun can still work perfectly well for tagging units to charge.

I wouldn't call it functionally useless, but I agree that it is not an auto take.

Hey, looking at the house relics. What about putting the Mark of Omnissiah on a magaera? It has a similar rule to IWND, called Blessed Autosimulacra. Same thing, but only works on a 6. BUT nowhere in the rule does it call itself IWND... So it should stack with the Heirloom? Thoughts?

Edit: by stack, I mean work side by side. Two rolls to regenerate hull points, one of a 5+ and the other a 6. Right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 greyknight12 wrote:

The meltagun is generally bad. The Melta rule kicks in at 6 in, the weapon mount is 5 in from the ground. So most of your shooting with it will just be a single S8 AP1 shot, unless you're shooting at something tall.

Since when do you measure up from the ground on a vehicle for range? I understand the thought behind it, but it's just not right. Measuring range from the guns on a vehicle is from the top down perspective, not real deal angles and stuff. If that's the case, the flamer on the top of a reaver titan wouldn't ever hit anything. And the new Warlord titan would be in serious trouble.

 Caboose wrote:


Since when do you measure up from the ground on a vehicle for range? I understand the thought behind it, but it's just not right. Measuring range from the guns on a vehicle is from the top down perspective, not real deal angles and stuff. If that's the case, the flamer on the top of a reaver titan wouldn't ever hit anything. And the new Warlord titan would be in serious trouble.

Yeah, I've never met anyone who's even brought up measuring ranges in 3d face to face. The game pretty clearly only uses vertical height for climbing ruins.

That said, the onlne community in general tends to put an exhausting ammount of effort into literalist exact words interpretations of everything then complaining when a game clearly never written to be played that way falls apart.

Hmm Got an tourney Coming up next weekend trying to think what tactics/Knights to bring or if I even should.

Tournament is allowing 30k armies, Un-nerfed STR D and invisability, and as many detachments as you can fit.

2000 points so I can fit 5 knights in easy. But question is which ones and in what formation. I'm more then a little worried about drop podding Skitari and Archon w/ Wraithguard poping my knights with ease. Should I run full 5 knights or mix in something else?

“There is, however, the notable exception of a vehicle’s weaponry. When firing a vehicle’s weapons, ranges are measured from the muzzle of the firing weapon, whilst line of sight is determined from the weapon’s mounting point and along its barrel”

Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Warhammer 40,000 (eBook Edition).” iBooks.

Just say'n.

SJ

Yeah, I know. That's why I said I understood the method of thinking. But you take into account that no vehicles lie flat on the surface of the table, vehicles are anywhere from 3"- 6" high and other various dimensions and raised off the table, then it's really a moot point to be making.

So, that being said, Ill disagree on the melta being a poor choice. The brilliance of it being a 12" range, which is your max charge. You can always declare a charge at the unit you shot it at as a fall back. Stubber has 36" range, so it more flexible from a suppressive fire standpoint, but for being up close and personal, the melta is better. If you're going to shoot it at a unit where you have 1 model in charge range... well, you can't fix stupid. Think forward in time a little bit, and move your knights so you can afford to kill a guy with your 'target selector' gun, and still be able to make a decent charge.

The template hits everything that is under the template, so in that case the height does not matter (with the exception of ruins that have some extra rules about floors).

so moving away from meltaguns for a moment (where the arguement for or against seems to be "will your local group insist you account for height when firing or not") I'm wondering what knight varient would you field with skitarii? any thoughts on ideals?

killerdou wrote:
The template hits everything that is under the template, so in that case the height does not matter (with the exception of ruins that have some extra rules about floors).

Just FYI - no they don't - that's 6th ed.

Ruins have all of 2 lines of rules and the whole 'levels' or 'floors' thing is completely gone.

Under the template on a ruin is literally every model regardless of level

The only variant sticking a top gun on is a crusader, imo. The other ones all want to get into combat, where they can't use the top gun anyways.

Have a lancer or Acheron as your warlord, or a gallant if you don't use forge world. Punch your opponent if he argues that an ion gauntlet is not an ion shield, and thus doesn't benefit from ionic shield wall.

cry about the fact that while you can fire overwatch when near the baron, most of your good weapons are blasts.

Bring a hammer and wave it menacingly when your opponent has d scythes and an archon.

Don't forget to wear a big grin when you show up with your hawkshroud 'Exalted Court of House Terryn', that you totally got legally.

 Crazyterran wrote:
The only variant sticking a top gun on is a crusader, imo. The other ones all want to get into combat, where they can't use the top gun anyways.

Have a lancer or Acheron as your warlord, or a gallant if you don't use forge world. Punch your opponent if he argues that an ion gauntlet is not an ion shield, and thus doesn't benefit from ionic shield wall.

cry about the fact that while you can fire overwatch when near the baron, most of your good weapons are blasts.

Bring a hammer and wave it menacingly when your opponent has d scythes and an archon.

Don't forget to wear a big grin when you show up with your hawkshroud 'Exalted Court of House Terryn', that you totally got legally.

QFT. I have a lancer, and feel the same way. Overwatching a wraithknight with your lancer baron is probably the most hilarious reaction you'll get out of your opponent. "What do you mean it has concussive? AND you can reroll you D weapon hits?? ZOMG CHEESE!!!" Really?? It's fun.

As far as skitarii, I don't have much knowledge on their play style, but I think they're mostly short/mid ranged shooting? So I would go either long range shooting (ie Crusader/paladin) or short ranged shooting and melee (ie Gallant/lancer/acheron/warden/errant).

Um, I don't think you get to ignore the no overwatchimg blasts rules from the formation so the knights that actually benefit are the acheron, castigator, warden, or crusader knights.

Ok, well the lancer has a heavy 6 weapon, with no blasts... so it can overwatch just fine.

Edit: For the record, it's 18" range st7 ap2 heavy 6 concussive.

Oh cool. I remembered it wrong.

Ok, I was looking at the Crusader with the TL-Battle Cannon and Missile Launcher for my Grey Knights.

Thoughts?

I really feel that the Crusader gives up too much versatility for getting the battle cannon instead of the chainsword.
Now I you could two of those gatling cannons it would be a different story, but sadly that's not an option.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
I really feel that the Crusader gives up too much versatility for getting the battle cannon instead of the chainsword.
Now I you could two of those gatling cannons it would be a different story, but sadly that's not an option.

Well I am not worried about close combat with my Dreadknight and lots of Grey Knights running around. What I was needing for my Grey Knights is Long Range Fire Support. If I get into Melee I do have my "Somp for Justice" thing going on.

I think that you should only take the Crusader if you already have a strong melee presence in your army. If all knights, balance it with a gallant, or only take it with a heavy melee army. Don't overlook the meltacannon as an option on the Crusader, instead of the battle cannon. Melta plus super krak launcher, and stubber, keeps it at medium range devastation. I would do the battle cannon and pseudo whirlwind launcher for backfield bombardments. But for the points, the melta cannon and krak launcher are probably the best weapons to have on it for all around usefulness.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
I really feel that the Crusader gives up too much versatility for getting the battle cannon instead of the chainsword.
Now I you could two of those gatling cannons it would be a different story, but sadly that's not an option.

Basically trading anti-MC/GMC/Superheavy for anti-horde/MEQ/TEQ. The equivalent Str10 AP2 attacks should be enough to beat through a vehicle.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
I really feel that the Crusader gives up too much versatility for getting the battle cannon instead of the chainsword.
Now I you could two of those gatling cannons it would be a different story, but sadly that's not an option.

Crusaders are just as proficient as other knights in cc against 90% of the targets out there.

Let the other knights deal with MCs and heavy walkers.

Players intending to keep the crusaders back are missing out on their max potential.

If you want to talk about losing versatility, then the gallant comes top of the list.

I can't see people taking gallants in competitive lists other than because of points restrictions.

The biggest use for Gallants I see is taking 3 ObjSec ones as your scoring. They can get right up onto objectives, are cheap, and if they charge a vehicle they get a pretty good shooting attack afterward.

The problem of course with using them as obj sec scoring units is that if no enemy is in range, then they are are effectively a 300 point scoring brick, with no damage output.

Taking objectives with crusaders and paladins will usually allow you to score whilst also maintaining some damage output.

If you were to take 3 gallants, then their formation would be better imo, as re-rolling charge ranges and having rage and crusader are all quite useful.