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While not fixing the Eldar dex by itself, what kind of change, if any, would you like to see for ScatterLasers?

(I'd like Wind riders to go back to 1 HW per 3, but that is a whole other conversation.)

Three potential changes I could see would be:
-S5
-Heavy 3
-or S6 heavy 8 always-snapfire

Obviously, only one of the above.

Just toying around with ideas and their implications. What are y'alls thoughts?

Get rid of them. I've played against them for 15 years now. I'm tired of them.

Heavy 3 wouldn't work because of the S6 AP5 heavy 3 Shuriken cannons with pseudo rending. There would then be no advantage to taking the laser over the cannon.

SL would have a 12" advantage, but yeah it might seem so similar.

That similarity is why I kinda like the idea of S5. So much else is S6, it'd make it more unique.

S5 would be a welcome nerf in all seriousness. At the same time, I'm very, very sick of this weapon and would love to just toss it out of the game. It's so easy mode.

Strength 5 would be fairly points balanced compared to what other codices get to field for a similar cost.

I mean it costs 10 pts to upgrade a SM Dev from a Bolter 24" Rapid Fire S4 AP5 to a Heavy Bolter 36" H3 S5 AP4 for a 24pt model.
10 pts to upgrade an EJB from a Catapult 12" Twinlinked S4 Rending to a Scatter Laser 36" H4 S5 AP- for 27pt Model

That is at least nearing the realm of balance.

Though, then we'd see far fewer Scatter Lasers and much more of the marginally less amazing Shuriken Cannons as they'd likely replace the Scatter Lasers as primary armaments.

I like the s5 suggestion, you trade ap4 for an extra shot. Instead of gaining an extra shot + extra strength. Either that or 5pt heavy bolters would be nice.

Str 5 would be perfect as it would make them more akin to heavy bolters, and restrict the target threat range that str 6 gives

Is have to agree as well. They should have dropped them to s5 certainly.

I think there was a time when scatter lasers and star cannons were both 3 shots. I'm probably wrong.

Eadartri wrote:
I think there was a time when scatter lasers and star cannons were both 3 shots. I'm probably wrong.

I remember scatter lasers having a random number of shots. A set 3 shots doesn't ring any bells though.

I think making scatter lasers strength 5 would be perfectly reasonable. You'd see a lot less of them (I like them as versatile transport openers), but they'd be more directly comparable to heavy bolters, trading an extra shot for worse AP.

That said, are we only having this conversation because of scatterbikes? If you're still finding scatter lasers to be overwhelming on other platforms despite the loss of laser lock, that's fair enough. If we're specifically talking about nerfing scatter lasers because jetbikes abuse them, then as the OP points out a much better solution is to limit jetbikes to 1 heavy per 3 bikes again.

Scatterlasers have been a problem in the last two editions because of their abundance and cheap cost. That platform that spams it has changed but the effect is still the same.

gungo wrote:
Scatterlasers have been a problem in the last two editions because of their abundance and cheap cost. That platform that spams it has changed but the effect is still the same.

its the str6
big shootas and heavy bolters arent a problem because they only deal with light infantry. They dont do light vehicles or heavy infantry very well, but going to str6 means you can reliably take out AV10-11 and even hurt Av12. You can double out 2 wound T3 guys. You can wound T4 on 2s and can wound most MCs rather well.
Str6 heavy 4 is like an autocannon crossed with a heavy bolter, but better than both.

S5 Scatter Lasers deal 20% less damage against Marines, and 50% less HP Damage vs AV11.

Shoot and only Four Marines fall instead of Five means a lot over the course of a game.

This change is pretty much perfect for balancing out Scatter Lasers.

 Zagman wrote:
S5 Scatter Lasers deal 20% less damage against Marines, and 50% less HP Damage vs AV11.

Shoot and only Four Marines fall instead of Five means a lot over the course of a game.

This change is pretty much perfect for balancing out Scatter Lasers.

The stats would be the following:

S6 scatter lasers, presupposing BS 4 and T4 space marine with 3+ save as its target:

2/3 X 4 shots hit. Of those, 5/6 wound. Of those, 1/3 bypass armor. Total: .740 repeating unsaved wounds per scatter laser per shooting phase.

S5 scatter lasers, presupposing BS 4 and T4 space marine with 3+ save as its target

2/3 X 4 shots hit. Of those, 2/3 wound. Of those, 1/3 bypass armor. Total: .592 repeating unsaved wounds per scatter laser per shooting phase.

Traditio wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
S5 Scatter Lasers deal 20% less damage against Marines, and 50% less HP Damage vs AV11.

Shoot and only Four Marines fall instead of Five means a lot over the course of a game.

This change is pretty much perfect for balancing out Scatter Lasers.

The stats would be the following:

S6 scatter lasers, presupposing BS 4 and T4 space marine with 3+ save as its target:

2/3 X 4 shots hit. Of those, 5/6 wound. Of those, 1/3 bypass armor. Total: .740 repeating unsaved wounds per scatter laser per shooting phase.

S5 scatter lasers, presupposing BS 4 and T4 space marine with 3+ save as its target

2/3 X 4 shots hit. Of those, 2/3 wound. Of those, 1/3 bypass armor. Total: .592 repeating unsaved wounds per scatter laser per shooting phase.

And .740 - .592 = .148 / .740 = .2 = 20%

If the main reason for the complaints is the SL jetbike spam, the best fix in my opinion would be the 1 in 3 limitation.

Other than that, popping up their points to 15 would be fair.

Of course, as a Xenos player myself, I'd rather they stay as they are (and no, I don't spam them). There are items in other lists (Marines, especially) that I don't think are particularly 'fairly priced' either, and arguments could be made for days about those, just as I am sure a lot of you complaining here don't play Eldar yourselves. It annoys you - just like a lot of the Marine toys annoy people who don't play them, and so on. I don't see it as 'game breaking'.

But the SL jetbike spam... I could never bring myself to do that, and not fear someone beating me over the head with their army transport case.

Just my 2 coppers, though.

Mort wrote:
If the main reason for the complaints is the SL jetbike spam, the best fix in my opinion would be the 1 in 3 limitation.

Other than that, popping up their points to 15 would be fair.

Of course, as a Xenos player myself, I'd rather they stay as they are (and no, I don't spam them). There are items in other lists (Marines, especially) that I don't think are particularly 'fairly priced' either, and arguments could be made for days about those, just as I am sure a lot of you complaining here don't play Eldar yourselves. It annoys you - just like a lot of the Marine toys annoy people who don't play them, and so on. I don't see it as 'game breaking'.

But the SL jetbike spam... I could never bring myself to do that, and not fear someone beating me over the head with their army transport case.

Just my 2 coppers, though.

The thing about toning down the scatter lasers is that they're a bit redundant as they are. They're our best high-strength high-rate-of-fire option at the moment, and they have scary good range to boot. But suppose they did go down to strength 5. They'd still be the best choice for dealing with most infantry, but they wouldn't be that *and* our go-to transport killer. The shuriken cannon is still pretty alright for popping transports, and it's still versatile enough to deal with other threats as well. It just has one fewer shot and less range, which would probably go a long way towards helping everyone's attitude regarding eldar right now.

We also still have the star cannon for long-range strength 6. With AP2, it's better against MCs and heavily armored non-vehicles, and it will occassionally get a nice result on the vehicle damage table when it pins. What I'm getting at is that we can still fill all of our heavy weapon roles pretty well without the scatter laser.

I don't see how dropping the Scatterlaser to S5 would even cripple its ability to take care of transports - the jetbike is so maneuverable that five of them are basically equivalent to a Vulture with Punisher Cannons, which is one of the best anti-vehicle weapons in the Guard army list.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I don't see how dropping the Scatterlaser to S5 would even cripple its ability to take care of transports - the jetbike is so maneuverable that five of them are basically equivalent to a Vulture with Punisher Cannons, which is one of the best anti-vehicle weapons in the Guard army list.

It makes them completely unable to harm AV12 (front armor chimera, IG fast attack tanks, serpents, fish), and you need 6's to-pen to even glance a rhino with strength 5. Scatter bikes specifically will still be able to reliably take down rhinos with scatter lasers, but I think this thread is addressing scatter lasers on all their platforms rather than just bikes.

Correct, all platforms.

I'm not sure that this change would be enough to fully balance Wind riders, but that's another discussion.

I thought the heavy bolted equivalent in the Eldar books were the Shuriken cannons, with scatter lasers being closer to assault cannons?

With their current rules, yeah. But SL are often costed as HB instead of AC for Eldar.

Perhaps, if this nerf were to happen, SL should be a straight swap from Shuriken Cannons everywhere where its currently an at-cost upgrade?

Zagman wrote:And .740 - .592 = .148 / .740 = .2 = 20%

Yup.

While I think str 5 is warranted for eldar I had to laugh at the idea of context. If every dark eldar jet bike was able to take a str 6 scatter laser for 10 pts no one would remotely care or say it's overpowered. However eldar jetbikes are 3+ instead of 4+, have great psychic support for those bikes, objective secured and spammable. Do dark elder even have the special eldar jetbike movement? Either way dark eldar also have issues with decent high str shooting with an over reliance on poison that is losing more and more target potency in every edition. I just find it funny how people lose sight of why a particular unit may not be overpowered in one codex and yet overpowered in another.

Yep, Windriders need S5 Scatter Lasers and a 4+ Armor Save, and they'd be pretty balanced.