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Hi Guys,

This crossed my mind when talking with a Fantasy player.

Are the 2 universe link? Is the Terra in Fantasy the Terra in 40k 40 millennium ago?

If yes, does it mean that we know who won the war since Terra belong to mankind? And Bretenian/Empire are the winner and chase other races away (or destroyed them since there is no more Human-rats, Lizarman in 40K)?

Thanks

They used to be linked, but they split them apart a few years ago now. There's hints these days but that's all.

 ImAGeek wrote:
They used to be linked, but they split them apart a few years ago now. There's hints these days but that's all.

They've never been explicitly linked, not even in Rogue Trader days, nor in the original Realm of Chaos books, but there have been hints at different times in various White Dwarf articles, codices, etc that the Warhammer World might be a world within the Eye of Terror. The presence of Slann in Warhammer, and the suggestion that these are the Old Ones from W40k has always been there, there is a suggestion that the Realms of Chaos in the North and South are Warp Gates that broke down. More recently, there is a hint of a Grey Knight chapter master roaming around the Chaos wastes, I believe? Not so sure on the more recent stuff.

Oh really? I thought they were in the past. I'm not sure where I got it from as it would've been before my time anyway.

They aren't linked in a historical way, but they are linked via the warp. ...
However..

Consider that in the new end times stuff the lizardmen are confirmed as having fully functional spaceships...
(And the skaven found a machine that let them talk to space elves...)
We've always known the old ones who created the lizardmen are the same ones who fought the necrons back in the day.

We'll see what 9th brings.. I don't think the two universes will ever be directly linked, but we may see more hints.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
There was a giant silver knight who could shoot fireballs spotted in the realm of chaos by some elves. Obviously not named as draigo.

In RL, yes.
In-universe, no.

Both universes share a number of similar elements due to their shared origin and there is a lot of fan speculation regarding possible links, but officially, GW either denies or doesn't comment on a possible link.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
They aren't linked in a historical way, but they are linked via the warp. ...

This is exactly what I recall, I'm still looking for the actual book, because there is clear evidence in Warhammer Fantasy RPG.

The Warhammer Fantasy wargame IIRC did NOT make an explicit connection, but in the older versions of WHFRP, there WAS a clear reference. Whereas nowadays WHFRP is like a licensed, spin-off line made by publishers like Fantasy Flight Games, it was originally made and published by Games Workshop itself. You would see articles, adventures, classes related to the wargame in White Dwarf.

The clear example that there is a connection between 40k and Fantasy relates to Chaos supplements of WHFRP. If you play a Chaos campaign, where players are like Chaos Warriors or Sorcerers, etc., you get boons from the Chaos Gods. There is a random treasure chart and there's all sorts of stuff, like mutations, magic items, etc. If you roll like a 99 or something...you get a Lascannon.

The suggestion wasn't clear what that means, but there were 2 interpretations. The 1st is that Warhammer Fantasy takes place on a primitive feudal world within the 40k universe, like it was mentioned above it's a planet inside the Eye of Terror. The 2nd is that it actually Terra, but due to "time working differently in the Warp", and the Lascannon went back in time. But it's not explicit which of those is true.

---

The above is an actual thing, not speculation, I just don't have the WHFRP book on me right now, but I really want to search for it now. There is 1 more point and I'm going to put it spoilers because it is purely a theory, and so controversial I don't want it blown out of proportion. I'm not the 1st to mention this, it's not my theory, just repeating it.

 Kommissar Waaaghrick wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
They aren't linked in a historical way, but they are linked via the warp. ...

This is exactly what I recall, I'm still looking for the actual book, because there is clear evidence in Warhammer Fantasy RPG.

The Warhammer Fantasy wargame IIRC did NOT make an explicit connection, but in the older versions of WHFRP, there WAS a clear reference. Whereas nowadays WHFRP is like a licensed, spin-off line made by publishers like Fantasy Flight Games, it was originally made and published by Games Workshop itself. You would see articles, adventures, classes related to the wargame in White Dwarf.

The clear example that there is a connection between 40k and Fantasy relates to Chaos supplements of WHFRP. If you play a Chaos campaign, where players are like Chaos Warriors or Sorcerers, etc., you get boons from the Chaos Gods. There is a random treasure chart and there's all sorts of stuff, like mutations, magic items, etc. If you roll like a 99 or something...you get a Lascannon.

The suggestion wasn't clear what that means, but there were 2 interpretations. The 1st is that Warhammer Fantasy takes place on a primitive feudal world within the 40k universe, like it was mentioned above it's a planet inside the Eye of Terror. The 2nd is that it actually Terra, but due to "time working differently in the Warp", and the Lascannon went back in time. But it's not explicit which of those is true.

---

The above is an actual thing, not speculation, I just don't have the WHFRP book on me right now, but I really want to search for it now. There is 1 more point and I'm going to put it spoilers because it is purely a theory, and so controversial I don't want it blown out of proportion. I'm not the 1st to mention this, it's not my theory, just repeating it.

Spoiler:

As you know, there were 20 Legions and Primarchs in 30k. 2 of them were lost, all records expunged, etc. The theory is, one of the missing Primarchs WAS Sigmar of Warhammer Fantasy, that the Twin-Tailed Comet was like his birth pod thing falling from the heavens, and that like his Primarch brethren his instinct was to unify humanity against threats against them. He left his Empire into the Chaos Wastes because he sensed the Emperor of 40k was close while traveling through the Warp and was trying to meet with him.

The in-universe connection between WHFB and 40k (and using CSM in WHFB!) dates back to RT days, and GW has long abandoned that and distanced itself from it.

Sigmar can not be one of the lost Primarch for a number of reasons. First of all we know his entire history, we know for sure he was normally born from a human mother and father and had a normal childhood until he was 15.
Secondly the time line does not add up. In 40k, Slaanesh was born in M30. The Primarchs were also created at this time. Sigmar was born 5600 years after Chaos (already including Slaanesh) first appeared in the Fantasy universe and therefore can not be a Primarch unless he stayed on Terra for 5600 years after being created while also still being an infant.

The two were linked and were explicitly so originally as shown by the following quote from the original Realms of Chaos book Lost and the Damned:

The Warhammer World is bound by storms of magic so that it remains isolated from the other worlds of the human galaxy. Elsewhere the forces of the Imperium tenaciously fight the influences of Chaos, so that the open aggression of Chaos Champions is restricted to zones not controlled by the Imperium. On worlds where Champions Of Chaos attain daemonhood or death there are monoliths to their memory, just as on the Warhammer World.

p. 77, Realms of Chaos, The Lost and the Damned

In the 2nd edition Chaos Codex, the Slaanesh Daemon Prince N'kari is described as:

N'Kari was born on an isolated, backward world which has been trapped in the center of a violent warp storm for millennia. The Chaos Powers have repeatedly attempted to conquer this planet, but have so far been foiled by the uncorrupted peoples of the world. N'Kari rose to prominence during one of the Chaos Powers' many attempts to conquer the planet. He proved himself a dedicated follower of Slaanesh in countless battles - and the debauched and disgusting revelries that followed them - and was rewarded by Slaanesh with the gift of Daemonhood. Along with Doombreed he was one of the two Daemon Princes that fought against the Emperor when he boarded Horus' battle barge, and he continues to serve his daemonic master to this day.

p. 140, 2nd edition Chaos Codex

As N'kari rose from the WHFB world, then by deduction we can conclude it is the WHFB world being implied to be the isolated backward world trapped in the center of a warp storm.

It turns out I was mistaken...and I want to own up to my mistake. Previously I mentioned IIRC there were no explicit links between Warhammer Fantasy Battle and 40k, only in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. I was wrong. There ARE blatant connections even between the Old World and 40k even in Warhammer Fantasy Battle.

This is taken from the original Realms of Chaos book, Slaves to Darkness, from during the Rogue Trader days. The book covers both Fantasy and 40k, but this excerpt is taken from the Fantasy section, for the tabletop wargame, for your Fantasy Chaos Champion. Please note the table on the right side:



My favourite detail - please note they have a Graviton Gun in there.

It can be pointed out that's old, it doesn't count, that's been retconned. I'm a bit more open-minded because, after years of GW saying 40k's Imperium has forbid A.I., that the Robots from 1st ed Rogue Trader are old, they don't count, they've been retconned...they're now back in the Cult Mechanicus book as Kastelans.

good times. I remember having a champion for my warband scale games, with a D Cannon.

It was a bit unfair, really

there were also heavy hints back in the day IIRC, that Sigmar was one of the lost Primarchs.

The link between them was a big part of fan headcanon in the late 80's and 90's. Nowadays it's more clear that they are entirely separate, with any cross-over stuff being basically just for funzies (e.g., talk of Kaldor Draigo beating up daemons in the Warhammer universe).

A person pretty heavily implied to be Draigo suddenly appeared out of nowhere in the end times, killed some dudes, said some cryptic things, then zooped back into the warp.

I'm saying it's a definite maybe.

Iracundus wrote:
The two were linked and were explicitly so originally as shown by the following quote from the original Realms of Chaos book Lost and the Damned:

The Warhammer World is bound by storms of magic so that it remains isolated from the other worlds of the human galaxy. Elsewhere the forces of the Imperium tenaciously fight the influences of Chaos, so that the open aggression of Chaos Champions is restricted to zones not controlled by the Imperium. On worlds where Champions Of Chaos attain daemonhood or death there are monoliths to their memory, just as on the Warhammer World.

p. 77, Realms of Chaos, The Lost and the Damned

Wow, just checked by LotD. I did NOT remember that being in there.

I knew I wasn't imagining it

It has long been posited that the Old World is something of a bio-preserve of the Slaan/Old Ones, having taken members of all of the 40K races and dropped them off in a zoo.

Wait, what?

All of the races present in 40K are present in WHFB.

You have: The Imperium -> The Empire, All kinds of non-Imperial human systems -> The rest of the Old World of Man, Eldar -> High Elves & Wood Elves, Dark Eldar -> Dark Elves, Squats -> Dwarves, Ogryn -> Ogres, Orks -> Orks, Chaos -> Chaos, Tau didn't exist yet, etc.

The Necrons are present in the Old World, but only from an outside perspective. They were an army of Undead called Tomb Kings in WHFB, which were turned into robo-mummies in their first incarnation in 40K.

Wasn't there an amazonian tribe that basically all had power swords and bolters?

All of the races present in 40K are present in WHFB.

Thats not disputed but Ive never read of an old ones/slann type zoo of the warhammer world.

Any fluff source on it?

I've always believed that the Fantasy world is an isolated feudal world somewhere in the 40K universe that the Imperium hasn't discovered yet.

The big link for me is that the chaos gods and Gork and Mork exist in both both places.

 Psienesis wrote:
All of the races present in 40K are present in WHFB.

You have: The Imperium -> The Empire, All kinds of non-Imperial human systems -> The rest of the Old World of Man, Eldar -> High Elves & Wood Elves, Dark Eldar -> Dark Elves, Squats -> Dwarves, Ogryn -> Ogres, Orks -> Orks, Chaos -> Chaos, Tau didn't exist yet, etc.

The Necrons are present in the Old World, but only from an outside perspective. They were an army of Undead called Tomb Kings in WHFB, which were turned into robo-mummies in their first incarnation in 40K.

Actually it is the other way around as Fantasy is the older game. The 40k races are the Fantasy races ported to a sci-fi setting. The only ones lacking clear analogies are the Skaven, Bretonnians and Wood Elves.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
All of the races present in 40K are present in WHFB.

You have: The Imperium -> The Empire, All kinds of non-Imperial human systems -> The rest of the Old World of Man, Eldar -> High Elves & Wood Elves, Dark Eldar -> Dark Elves, Squats -> Dwarves, Ogryn -> Ogres, Orks -> Orks, Chaos -> Chaos, Tau didn't exist yet, etc.

The Necrons are present in the Old World, but only from an outside perspective. They were an army of Undead called Tomb Kings in WHFB, which were turned into robo-mummies in their first incarnation in 40K.

Actually it is the other way around as Fantasy is the older game. The 40k races are the Fantasy races ported to a sci-fi setting. The only ones lacking clear analogies are the Skaven, Bretonnians and Wood Elves.

Lizardmen?

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
All of the races present in 40K are present in WHFB.

You have: The Imperium -> The Empire, All kinds of non-Imperial human systems -> The rest of the Old World of Man, Eldar -> High Elves & Wood Elves, Dark Eldar -> Dark Elves, Squats -> Dwarves, Ogryn -> Ogres, Orks -> Orks, Chaos -> Chaos, Tau didn't exist yet, etc.

The Necrons are present in the Old World, but only from an outside perspective. They were an army of Undead called Tomb Kings in WHFB, which were turned into robo-mummies in their first incarnation in 40K.

Actually it is the other way around as Fantasy is the older game. The 40k races are the Fantasy races ported to a sci-fi setting. The only ones lacking clear analogies are the Skaven, Bretonnians and Wood Elves.

Lizardmen?

The 3e Necron codex said that you could use lizardmen to represent a race of warriors used by the Slann.

Lizardmen are Slaan, yeah, or a client-race of the Slaan. Doesn't WHF posit Lizardmen as the remnants, now debased, of a once-mighty culture?


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 Ratius wrote:

All of the races present in 40K are present in WHFB.

Thats not disputed but Ive never read of an old ones/slann type zoo of the warhammer world.

Any fluff source on it?

It's a fan-theory that explains why every race in 40K is also present in WHF. Of course, the theory neglects the order in which the games were released, but when has such things as logic ever prevented wild theories from arising from a fanbase?

Wasn't there an amazonian tribe that basically all had power swords and bolters?

Yes, in Mordheim.

Also, the big summer campaign that took place on Albion years and years ago culminated in the "winning" factions (I think it was that, rather than all factions) gaining access to a vault deep in the island full of weapons of war. Such as power fists, powerswords, protective fields, etc. I think even some ranged weapons were in there. I remember it from one of the White Dwarf articles. They were not named as such, but it's hard to misinterpret an item description of a "large armored fist, surrounded by a powerful energy field".

 MrFlutterPie wrote:
I've always believed that the Fantasy world is an isolated feudal world somewhere in the 40K universe that the Imperium hasn't discovered yet.

The big link for me is that the chaos gods and Gork and Mork exist in both both places.

The Eldar and High Elves also share all the same gods.

The biggest break, I think, comes in the fact that there's not really a God-Emperor in Fantasy. There's the Emperor, Karl-Franz the Whatever-Number-this-Week.... but he's not all that powerful a ruler, is fairly inept and isn't a divine ruler. Plus, there's all the human kingdoms that aren't part of the Empire.

 Eldarain wrote:

 MrFlutterPie wrote:
I've always believed that the Fantasy world is an isolated feudal world somewhere in the 40K universe that the Imperium hasn't discovered yet.

The big link for me is that the chaos gods and Gork and Mork exist in both both places.

The Eldar and High Elves also share all the same gods.

Aren't all of the Eldar gods dead expect for the Laughing god? Who do the Elves worship then?

 MrFlutterPie wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:

 MrFlutterPie wrote:
I've always believed that the Fantasy world is an isolated feudal world somewhere in the 40K universe that the Imperium hasn't discovered yet.

The big link for me is that the chaos gods and Gork and Mork exist in both both places.

The Eldar and High Elves also share all the same gods.

Aren't all of the Eldar gods dead expect for the Laughing god? Who do the Elves worship then?

Khaine's alive, if in pieces, and Isha's alive, if in Nurgle's "care."

Also Cegorach has no fantasy counterpart.


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 Psienesis wrote:
The biggest break, I think, comes in the fact that there's not really a God-Emperor in Fantasy. There's the Emperor, Karl-Franz the Whatever-Number-this-Week.... but he's not all that powerful a ruler, is fairly inept and isn't a divine ruler. Plus, there's all the human kingdoms that aren't part of the Empire.

Well, Karl Franz does become Sigmar.